Report: Iraqi POW's Tortured by Americans.............

[OzmO]

what is your point then? clarify it for me if you would.

It's about practicing what you preach.

[tonymctones]

It's about practicing what you preach.

Didnt bush sign in a "torture bill" or veto an anti torture bill so we are practicing what we preach arent we? I may be misinformed but i believe that he ok'd it.

practicing what you preach I can appreciate that is if its the case but when it comes down to the safety of our soldiers than i dont believe it should apply. Why is it up to the US to be politically correct when we are fighting ppl who dont pay us the same respect? b/c we are a civilized nation? This is the reason why this war is so hard to fight b/c we cant fight like them this war would have been long over if not for the politically correct way that we must fight.

Again I say who gives a fuck about them if it saves american soldiers lives? Would you rather we practice what we preach and american soldiers die as a result? Its a rock and a hard place but at the end of the day its between practicing what we preach or saving american lives, and you wanna go with practicing what you preach? are you sure about that?

[OzmO]

Didnt bush sign in a "torture bill" or veto an anti torture bill so we are practicing what we preach arent we? I may be misinformed but i believe that he ok'd it.

practicing what you preach I can appreciate that if its the case but when it comes down to the safety of our soldiers than i dont believe it should apply. Why is it up to the US to be politically correct when we are fighting ppl who dont pay us the same respect? b/c we are a civilized nation? This is the reason why this war is so hard to fight b/c we cant fight like them this war would have been long over if not for the politically correct way that we must fight.

Again I say who gives a fuck about them if it saves american soldiers lives? Would you rather we practice what we preach and american soldiers die as a result? Its a rock and a hard place but at the end of the day its between practicing what we preach or saving american lives, and you wanna go with practicing what you preach? are you sure about that?

How does sexually abusing or torturing, imprisoning and not charging  a person and then releasing them protect American Soldiers?

If they were a danger then they wouldn't release them.

If they were guilty then they 'd charge them.

So what's the point of sexually abusing them and torturing them unless you are as evil a scum like them.

I get we need to be hard core.  I'm no lamby pamby liberal.  But i'm not a hypocrite either.

We preach decency and living in a civilized society.  Yet, we torture sexually abuse and imprison people with out charges.  That's what i mean be practicing what we preach.

[tonymctones]

How does sexually abusing or torturing, imprisoning and not charging  a person and then releasing them protect American Soldiers?

If they were a danger then they wouldn't release them.

If they were guilty then they 'd charge them.

So what's the point of sexually abusing them and torturing them unless you are as evil a scum like them.

I get we need to be hard core.  I'm no lamby pamby liberal.  But i'm not a hypocrite either.

We preach decency and living in a civilized society.  Yet, we torture sexually abuse and imprison people with out charges.  That's what i mean be practicing what we preach.

we also preach using torture, so we are practicing what we preach and not being hypocritical the president himself ok'd it, the american public for the most part is the entity preaching decency, the american public that isnt there and has all but forgotten about the soldiers sent there to do a job which is all to obvious by the outcry do to US attrocities and silence when regarding terrorist attrocities.

you think they these guys just nab random ppl and torture them for fukin kicks? NO they have reason to believe that they know something. I understand your logic of them not being dangerous if they got released but that logic could also give validity to the idea that they wouldnt have been detained if they didnt have reason to think they were dangerous.

IRAQ isnt america if it was then yes by all means charge them or let them go however our american civil liberties dont apply there and shouldnt as long as the terrorist continue to fight the way they do.

WE ARE AT WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and ppl are DYING if getting info from one person no matter how it is obtained will save american lives i want it done.

[youandme]

It's about practicing what you preach.

LOL that is what Rev Wright said

[OzmO]

we also preach using torture, so we are practicing what we preach and not being hypocritical the president himself ok'd it, the american public for the most part is the entity preaching decency, the american public that isnt there and has all but forgotten about the soldiers sent there to do a job which is all to obvious by the outcry do to US attrocities and silence when regarding terrorist attrocities.

Show me in the US constitution where we preach torture?  That piece of sh1t in the oval office is not the AMerican people and last i checked we are a country whose moral base is rooted in christianity.  I don't see Jesus sexually abusing prisoners.  And i don;t see the Christianity supporting torture.

Your argument falls apart enough there but let's go on:

you think they these guys just nab random ppl and torture them for fukin kicks? NO they have reason to believe that they know something. I understand your logic of them not being dangerous if they got released but that logic could also give validity to the idea that they wouldnt have been detained if they didnt have reason to think they were dangerous.

If they had reason to think they were dangerous then they would have had charged them with something.  They just held them and didn't give a reason.  Which means they HAD NONE.  Then they torture them, sexually abused them, kept them in prison for years and then released them.  

What is looks like is they were fishing and never caught any fish.

Imagine Being tortured for something you might know.  Sounds, very HIMMLER.

More flawed logic on your part.

IRAQ isnt america if it was then yes by all means charge them or let them go however our american civil liberties dont apply there and shouldnt as long as the terrorist continue to fight the way they do.

I'm not talking habeus corpus.  I'm talking about imprison someone and charging them.  Telling them and their families or who ever why they are being imprisoned.  We did it with the Germans, Japs, Koreans etc...   And we didn't sell our soul when they were our POW's.
 

WE ARE AT WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and ppl are DYING if getting info from one person no matter how it is obtained will save american lives i want it done.

You advocate NAZI tactics as justification for a means to an end.  You are also an uninformed peorson who thinks BUSH is the voice of America which makes you a candidate for nipple whore-dom.

And if you do really want that done, sexually abusing and torturing prisoners without charging them and holding them for indefinate amounts of time then you are no different than a run of the mill radical islamic. The only difference is the side of the fence you live on.

In case you have the courage:
http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=219296.0

Last i checked the supreme court decided.


Besides that you need to go back and re-read from the beginning.  We aren't talking about water-boarding here.  which were condiered war crimes in ww2. 

[OzmO]

LOL that is what Rev Wright said

Yeah, i think GOD ON EARTH said something about that too.

nice try.  Sorry, stupid try.

[OzmO]

You know youandme,  Your arguments are really, well....... on the level of a 10 year old.


Don't worry, however, in about a month, I'm going to switch gears and start crucifying Obama with real issues.  Not this namby pamby childish crap the basic ignorant nipple whore spouts.  Not that you are a nipple whore or anything 

[tonymctones]

Show me in the US constitution where we preach torture?  That piece of sh1t in the oval office is not the AMerican people and last i checked we are a country whose moral base is rooted in christianity.  I don't see Jesus sexually abusing prisoners.  And i don;t see the Christianity supporting torture.

IRAQ is not the United States and therefore the constitution should have no bearing. I never said the president was the american ppls voice but he was voted in by the american ppl. LOL im not even going to go into the religion thing

If they had reason to think they were dangerous then they would have had charged them with something.  They just held them and didn't give a reason.  Which means they HAD NONE.  Then they torture them, sexually abused them, kept them in prison for years and then released them.  

What is looks like is they were fishing and never caught any fish.

Imagine Being tortured for something you might know.  Sounds, very HIMMLER.

So what? I know that sounds cruel and it is. These guys had reason to think that certain ppl might have information some probably dont and some probably do, more than likely the ones who dont are the minority. You dont know how many lives have been saved b/c of info gained from this do you? so how can you say they never caught a fish.

I'm not talking habeus corpus.  I'm talking about imprison someone and charging them.  Telling them and their families or who ever why they are being imprisoned.  We did it with the Germans, Japs, Koreans etc...   And we didn't sell our soul when they were our POW's.
 

AGAIN you are thinking about this from the pov of a US civilian...THIS IS WAR, dirty shit happens, whoever told you war is dignified state of affiars lied to you. The germans and japanese didnt resort to terrorist tatics either, this is an unconventional war and must be fought in an unconventional way.

You advocate NAZI tactics as justification for a means to an end.  You are also an uninformed peorson who thinks BUSH is the voice of America which makes you a candidate for nipple whore-dom.

And if you do really want that done, sexually abusing and torturing prisoners without charging them and holding them for indefinate amounts of time then you are no different than a run of the mill radical islamic. The only difference is the side of the fence you live on.

AGAIN I never said that Bush is the voice of america but again he was voted in so say what you want. If you go back to my previous post youll see.
Im ok with that I never said I was better than them, you know what OZMO if your trying to kill me and at the end of the day if its me or you, im sorry bud but its not gonna be me and ill do whatevers necessary to make sure of that as im sure you would as well.

There is a difference however between me and the terrorist we are fighting, I will live and let live always been my motto...they however feel the need to attack US establishments and its constituents...they brought on this fight.

It may suprise you to know that i believe that they should have a course of action to appeal a release as well as the methods of torture being wrong, but its necessary IMO...

I think this is more difference of view points than ideals...I do feel torture is wrong and that being held without charge is wrong but I also think anything and everything should be done to protect our soldiers more so than the first.

[tonymctones]

I think this might get at the heart of our disagreement

let me ask you a question OZMO if your in a fight and getting your ass kicked and theres a bat nearby do you pick up the bat?

[OzmO]

I think this might get at the heart of our disagreement

let me ask you a question OZMO if your in a fight and getting your ass kicked and theres a bat nearby do you pick up the bat?

If it looks like I'm going to get seriously hurt or robbed, yes.  But I'm not going to ram the bat up the guy's ass.

IRAQ is not the United States and therefore the constitution should have no bearing. I never said the president was the american ppls voice but he was voted in by the american ppl. LOL im not even going to go into the religion thing

I don't care what Iraq is.  I'm talking about common decency as a human being, not acting like the very thing I'm fighting.  I guess you are.  I guess you and the Terrorist are one in the same.

So what? I know that sounds cruel and it is. These guys had reason to think that certain ppl might have information some probably dont and some probably do, more than likely the ones who dont are the minority. You dont know how many lives have been saved b/c of info gained from this do you? so how can you say they never caught a fish.

Because they never changed them.  They released them.    And you don't even know the circumstances that made them candidates for sexual abuse and torture.   If there was justifiable cause they would have been charged.  And instead they weren't charged and sexually abused and tortured. And you are so blind to the blatant immorality and barbarism of those acts by your lack of sensibility and your flawed, paradigm of right and wrong.

AGAIN you are thinking about this from the pov of a US civilian...THIS IS WAR, dirty shit happens, whoever told you war is dignified state of affiars lied to you. The germans and japanese didnt resort to terrorist tatics either, this is an unconventional war and must be fought in an unconventional way.

If this is war then they are POW's and should granted rights of POW's under the geneva convention.  It is not WAR if those you are fighting are neither members of another country or recognized as enemy soldiers. 

Aside from all of that.  It's not about being a civilian like you'd like to think i'm trying to say.  It's about right and wrong, common decency and doing the right thing, being civilized, being noble, taking the high road, not being barbaric, not being medieval etc... 

But it's seems more like trying to explain humane treatment to Hitler.

AGAIN I never said that Bush is the voice of america but again he was voted in so say what you want. If you go back to my previous post youll see.
Im ok with that I never said I was better than them, you know what OZMO if your trying to kill me and at the end of the day if its me or you, im sorry bud but its not gonna be me and ill do whatevers necessary to make sure of that as im sure you would as well.

Sexually abusing, imprisoning with out charge and torturing is not necessary.  Especially someone you don't charge.   It's overkill and the expense of our integrity. 

There is a difference however between me and the terrorist we are fighting, I will live and let live always been my motto...they however feel the need to attack US establishments and its constituents...they brought on this fight.

No, you are one in the same because both of you justify the means to an end even if it means doing something barbaric and immoral.

That's the difference between us and them.

 

It may suprise you to know that i believe that they should have a course of action to appeal a release as well as the methods of torture being wrong, but its necessary IMO...

What's needed?   Having a course of action to appeal or legally performing torture or immoral acts?

Which is more terrorist like?

I think this is more difference of view points than ideals...I do feel torture is wrong and that being held without charge is wrong but I also think anything and everything should be done to protect our soldiers more so than the first.

You should do a study on torture then.  You may find that's it's widely ineffective. 







 
 

[tonymctones]

LOL i guess im a islamic terrorist version of hitler then

why should we pay them courtesies that they dont pay us?

Again maybe you should read my posts I said torture is wrong so is holding somebody with out charging them but to me to me its not about being moral and taking the high road its about saving lives by any means necessary.

war or fighting is not a moral act in itself and definitely not taking the high road.

First off who said we were better than them? we are no better than anybody else on this planet.
I never claimed to be better than them and dont really care if i am or not what i do care about is the safety of our soldiers.

I understand your viewpoints but it leads to us fighting with our hands tied and thats not a smart way to fight.

I dont advocate blantent misuse of torture but i do believe it does have a useful component if for nothing more than a scare tatic.

im tired of argueing this point with you, i see your points, but i feel that you refuse to acknowledge mine which is why i hate argueing over the internet.

[Decker]

LOL i guess im a islamic terrorist version of hitler then

why should we pay them courtesies that they dont pay us?

Again maybe you should read my posts I said torture is wrong so is holding somebody with out charging them but to me to me its not about being moral and taking the high road its about saving lives by any means necessary.

war or fighting is not a moral act in itself and definitely not taking the high road.

First off who said we were better than them? we are no better than anybody else on this planet.
I never claimed to be better than them and dont really care if i am or not what i do care about is the safety of our soldiers.

I understand your viewpoints but it leads to us fighting with our hands tied and thats not a smart way to fight.

I dont advocate blantent misuse of torture but i do believe it does have a useful component if for nothing more than a scare tatic.

im tired of argueing this point with you, i see your points, but i feel that you refuse to acknowledge mine which is why i hate argueing over the internet.

The good guys don't torture.  The commies, nazis and japs tortured.  We don't

I think a lot of this confusion comes from the notion that we are at war the way we were in WWII.

We are not.

Terrorism is a police problem.

Bush and company used the military (wrongly) to address the issue.

Why?  Look at how all those private corporations are making a veritable killing off the Iraq disaster.  It's a novel way to plunder the US tax coffers, rob another country blind while cowing all political opponents here in america.

You have to hand it to the Bush administration, they've muddied the waters.  Mission Accomplished!

[headhuntersix]

Decker...we're not the "good" guys were just  guys trying to ensure our way of life.

[CQ]

Decker...we're not the "good" guys were just  guys trying to ensure our way of life.

It brings tears to my eyes when we agree HH6.

[Decker]

Decker...we're not the "good" guys were just  guys trying to ensure our way of life.

I'm not a moral relativist HH.  

I don't see how torturing people ensures our way of life any more than attacking Iraq defends our country from terrorists.

To believe those things are true requires a massive amount of cognitive dissonance by the believer.

[Eldon]

I'm not a moral relativist HH. 

I don't see how torturing people ensures our way of life any more than attacking Iraq defends our country from terrorists.

To believe those things are true requires a massive amount of cognitive dissonance by the believer.

your man John Edwards thought that it did, as he voted for the war !

[Decker]

your man John Edwards thought that it did, as he voted for the war !

Eldon/Ozark, Don't you have some race or immigration issues to obsess over?

[OzmO]

LOL i guess im a islamic terrorist version of hitler then

why should we pay them courtesies that they dont pay us?

Again maybe you should read my posts I said torture is wrong so is holding somebody with out charging them but to me to me its not about being moral and taking the high road its about saving lives by any means necessary.

war or fighting is not a moral act in itself and definitely not taking the high road.

First off who said we were better than them? we are no better than anybody else on this planet.
I never claimed to be better than them and dont really care if i am or not what i do care about is the safety of our soldiers.

I understand your viewpoints but it leads to us fighting with our hands tied and thats not a smart way to fight.

I dont advocate blantent misuse of torture but i do believe it does have a useful component if for nothing more than a scare tatic.

im tired of argueing this point with you, i see your points, but i feel that you refuse to acknowledge mine which is why i hate argueing over the internet.

I for one, say we are more civilized then they are.  If that equates us being better then what ever, BUT, they have the same rights as human beings as we do IMO and should be treated as such.

Why should treat them as we wish to be treated?   Aren't you at least a bit religious TT?  I think i've seen you on the religion board.


I heard what you said.  You think those things are wrong, but you justify them as a means to an end.  I don't.  I believe we should walk the walk AND talk the talk.

Water boarding for me is a difficult issue that i've gone back and forth with, however, straight torture and sexual abuse, imprisonment without charges is well beyond the line.

[tonymctones]

I for one, say we are more civilized then they are.  If that equates us being better then what ever, BUT, they have the same rights as human beings as we do IMO and should be treated as such.

Why should treat them as we wish to be treated?   Aren't you at least a bit religious TT?  I think i've seen you on the religion board.


I heard what you said.  You think those things are wrong, but you justify them as a means to an end.  I don't.  I believe we should walk the walk AND talk the talk.

Water boarding for me is a difficult issue that i've gone back and forth with, however, straight torture and sexual abuse, imprisonment without charges is well beyond the line.

I consider myself religious, would you or others i dont know.

I agree we should treat ppl the way we want to be treated, but I also believe that when somebody starts playing dirty pool all bets are off. I justify it by the lives saved from the information gained, if you want to see that as a means to an end then go right ahead. Ive never talked your talk, is my point, ive talked my talk and doing whatever necessary is walking my walk. You can sit back and believe your better than them or more civilized and thats all good but like i said at the end of the day you and me arent any better than anybody else on this planet. That type of thinking is detrimental to our freedoms and safety.

[Eldon]

Eldon/Ozark, Don't you have some race or immigration issues to obsess over?

Decker , don't you have some John Edwards rally or a ' We Hate the Troops" rally to go to ? 

But before you go, why don't you tell us all how you were backing John Edwards, even though he voted for the War, and yet he did not even take the time to read the intelligence report .

[Decker]

Decker , don't you have some John Edwards rally or a ' We Hate the Troops" rally to go to ? 

But before you go, why don't you tell us all how you were backing John Edwards, even though he voted for the War, and yet he did not even take the time to read the intelligence report .

So what if he didn't read it.

How does Congress's negligence on the matter excuse the Bush administration's littany of lies and distortions about Iraq's threat in taking this country to war?

Who would believe the president of the United States of America would lie to the American People and Congress about something as important as going to war?

Your "We hate the troops rally" is as entertaining as your multiple personalities.

Am I talking to Eldon or Ozark now?  Or is there another?

[Hugo Chavez]

Not my call to invade..but I'm doing my part to make sure we win and come home.

What the fuck are you going to win?

[Hugo Chavez]

Wife? Shit, I'm not getting married until I'm at least 30 and actually advanced whatever career I choose to a point that I'm comfortable. I've got 99 problems, but some gold diggin bitch ain't one.

Terrorists should not get habeas corpus. Why should we grant them the rights of American citizens? Stupid, stupid argument.

It's about you not them... think on it for a while

[Fury]

It's about you not them... think on it for a while

I don't need to. I'd rather every terrorist was executed after interrogation or shipped off on prison ships where we wouldn't have to hear about them. I've got better things to do than worry about whether or not Mohammed from Saudi Arabia deserves a trial after killing 5 American soldiers.

It cracks me up. Americans are so desensitized to other American plights. They'd rather rally for the rights of terrorists than spend their time doing things to make the country better. Go lead a rally or donate some money to help get innocent Americans out of jail for crimes they didn't commit.

How would you feel if one of these terrorists got off through a legal loophole and turned around and killed a couple hundred Americans in a bombing? I know it probably wouldn't bother you in bumfucksville Wyoming but I'm sure you'd be rallying about it on the internet, blaming everyone and everything. 

So what if he didn't read it.

How does Congress's negligence on the matter excuse the Bush administration's littany of lies and distortions about Iraq's threat in taking this country to war?

Who would believe the president of the United States of America would lie to the American People and Congress about something as important as going to war?

Your "We hate the troops rally" is as entertaining as your multiple personalities.

Am I talking to Eldon or Ozark now?  Or is there another?

So what if he didn't read it? Stop being a fucking hypocrite. You would castrate anyone else for not doing that.