Author Topic: Socialism 101, taught by Michelle Obama (Read 6373 times)

Hugo Chavez · « **Reply #25 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:01:46 AM »

Quote from: Beach Bum on June 25, 2008, 08:58:28 AM

I've been in the trenches for the past eight years. Where have YOU been? The government regulates business up the ying yang.

We just raised the general excise tax a few years ago, which was immediately passed on to consumers. That's how it always works. Punishing business punishes consumers.

Lobbying is a different issue. Anyone, corporation or individual, with a lot of money gets a seat at the table. That's the way the system works. Unfortunately. That's completely different from whether the government should be trying overtax and/or punish business.

BB, you're just flat out making up your own reality here. Yup, big business agrees with you 100% To bad it's pure BS.

Dos Equis · « **Reply #26 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:06:14 AM »

Quote from: Hugo Chavez on June 25, 2008, 09:01:46 AM

BB, you're just flat out making up your own reality here. Yup, big business agrees with you 100% To bad it's pure BS.

Just stating the facts. If you are in business, heavy government regulation is a fact.

Decker · « **Reply #27 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:08:34 AM »

Quote from: Beach Bum on June 25, 2008, 08:54:12 AM

I do not support "targeted tax cuts," which are nothing more than code words for class warfare.

Right. Let's just ignore the flaming class distinctions that surpass those of the 1920s. The old 'head in the sand' approach won't work here.

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Attacking people who make $250K a year? As if they don't work hard for their money and get soaked by the government. Raising capital gains taxes on millions of Americans? This is guy is a disaster waiting to happen.

Taxing someone is not attacking them.

Has the debate over marginal tax rates debased to the point that any talk of taxation is an attack or class warfare? That's not productive.

Did you know that most Americans pay capital gains taxes on the sale of their homes? Did you know that $250-500,000 of that sales price is exempt from capital gains?

Further did you know that most rich people make their money from capital gains and not income and that the capital gains tax rates are lower than most of the marginal income tax rates?

The more we learn, the more his plan looks like a sensible measure.

I mean what's the alternative? Senator McCain's extra tax cuts on top of the extension of the irresponsible Bush tax cuts into perpetuity?

That's just horrible economics. McCain shouldn't have flipped on Bush's tax cuts--the expiration date was put in so Bush could campaign on the low cost of his 'temporary' tax cuts.

McCain knows that.

Hugo Chavez · « **Reply #28 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:13:58 AM »

Quote from: Beach Bum on June 25, 2008, 09:06:14 AM

Just stating the facts. If you are in business, heavy government regulation is a fact.

NO IT'S NOT!!!!! JESUS BB, YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS. WILL YOU TELL ME FOR A FACT THAT THERE HASN'T BEEN HUGE DEREGULATION UNDER BUSH? GO AHEAD, IT'LL BE A BOLD FACED FUCKING LIE.

Dos Equis · « **Reply #29 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:16:11 AM »

Quote from: Decker on June 25, 2008, 09:08:34 AM

Right. Let's just ignore the flaming class distinctions that surpass those of the 1920s. The old 'head in the sand' approach won't work here.
Taxing someone is not attacking them.

Has the debate over marginal tax rates debased to the point that any talk of taxation is an attack or class warfare? That's not productive.

Did you know that most Americans pay capital gains taxes on the sale of their homes? Did you know that $250-500,000 of that sales price is exempt from capital gains?

Further did you know that most rich people make their money from capital gains and not income and that the capital gains tax rates are lower than most of the marginal income tax rates?

The more we learn, the more his plan looks like a sensible measure.

I mean what's the alternative? Senator McCain's extra tax cuts on top of the extension of the irresponsible Bush tax cuts into perpetuity?

That's just horrible economics. McCain shouldn't have flipped on Bush's tax cuts--the expiration date was put in so Bush could campaign on the low cost of his 'temporary' tax cuts.

McCain knows that.

Attacking "the rich" is a liberal mantra and has been for decades. That’s precisely what Obama is doing. Pitting groups against each other. "The rich" by and large earned their money through hard work, saving, investing, and living below their means. The government has no business trying to "target" them for a further disproportionate tax burden.

Also, it isn’t just “the rich” who pay capital gains taxes. And people who make $250K and up aren’t necessarily “rich.”

Many liberals have the mindset that people can be successful, but just not too successful, or the government will take what you have and give to the have nots. That's just wrongheaded. The government should be trying to reduce everyone's burden and should not punish success.

Dos Equis · « **Reply #30 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:17:38 AM »

Quote from: Hugo Chavez on June 25, 2008, 09:13:58 AM

NO IT'S NOT!!!!! JESUS BB, YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS. WILL YOU TELL ME FOR A FACT THAT THERE HASN'T BEEN HUGE DEREGULATION UNDER BUSH? GO AHEAD, IT'LL BE A BOLD FACED FUCKING LIE.

Now now Hugo. Take a deep breath. lol.

I did not say there has not been deregulation. I said business is heavily regulated.

Hugo Chavez · « **Reply #31 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:26:19 AM »

Quote from: Beach Bum on June 25, 2008, 09:17:38 AM

Now now Hugo. Take a deep breath. lol.

I did not say there has not been deregulation. I said business is heavily regulated.

what were they before all the deregulation? AND THERE HAS BEEN A LOT!!! Shackled in the dungeon whipped daily by some liberal femdom master? Seems they did ok then so what's the big deal? You have to play by some rules. I've heard Bush say so many times, "we'll let the corporation determine when, how, if bla bla...." and of course we all know what that means

Decker · « **Reply #32 on:** June 25, 2008, 09:39:54 AM »

Quote from: Beach Bum on June 25, 2008, 09:16:11 AM

Attacking "the rich" is a liberal mantra and has been for decades. That’s precisely what Obama is doing. Pitting groups against each other. "The rich" by and large earned their money through hard work, saving, investing, and living below their means. The government has no business trying to "target" them for a further disproportionate tax burden.

I am not an apologist for the wealthy. They do fine for themselves.

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Also, it isn’t just “the rich” who pay capital gains taxes. And people who make $250K and up aren’t necessarily “rich.”

I have to disagree with you on this one. 1.5% of the US population earns $250,000 or more a year. That's a fairly select neighborhood worthy of the terminology "rich".

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Many liberals have the mindset that people can be successful, but just not too successful, or the government will take what you have and give to the have nots. That's just wrongheaded. The government should be trying to reduce everyone's burden and should not punish success.

Many conservatives ignore the costs of society and wrongly try to attribute their own success to only their own efforts. That's very selfish.

As for the have-nots, I like to call them the widows, the elderly, the disabled, the orphans, and the disenfranchised.

Of course we could go back to the days of debtor prisons, the stockades, or indentured servitude to right the ship of state but we are supposed to be an advanced civil society.

Dos Equis · « **Reply #33 on:** June 25, 2008, 10:51:54 AM »

Quote from: Hugo Chavez on June 25, 2008, 09:26:19 AM

what were they before all the deregulation? AND THERE HAS BEEN A LOT!!! Shackled in the dungeon whipped daily by some liberal femdom master? Seems they did ok then so what's the big deal? You have to play by some rules. I've heard Bush say so many times, "we'll let the corporation determine when, how, if bla bla...." and of course we all know what that means

Business was heavily regulated before Bush took office and is heavily regulated today. Keep in mind that much of the regulation occurs at the state level.

Who do you mean by "they"? Are you referring to Fortune 500 companies? Business that earn over a certain threshold?

Dos Equis · « **Reply #34 on:** June 25, 2008, 10:56:16 AM »

Quote from: Decker on June 25, 2008, 09:39:54 AM

I am not an apologist for the wealthy. They do fine for themselves.
I have to disagree with you on this one. 1.5% of the US population earns $250,000 or more a year. That's a fairly select neighborhood worthy of the terminology "rich".
Many conservatives ignore the costs of society and wrongly try to attribute their own success to only their own efforts. That's very selfish.

As for the have-nots, I like to call them the widows, the elderly, the disabled, the orphans, and the disenfranchised.

Of course we could go back to the days of debtor prisons, the stockades, or indentured servitude to right the ship of state but we are supposed to be an advanced civil society.

Wealth is defined by net worth, not income. A person who earns $250K a year, who lives in L.A., has a mortgage, a couple or three kids, etc. isn't necessarily "rich."

Setting some arbitrary income level and attacking people over that level will not help this country. It will divide people.

We already take care of the elderly, disabled, orphans, disenfranchised, etc.

Decker · « **Reply #35 on:** June 25, 2008, 11:17:28 AM »

Quote from: Beach Bum on June 25, 2008, 10:56:16 AM

Wealth is defined by net worth, not income. A person who earns $250K a year, who lives in L.A., has a mortgage, a couple or three kids, etc. isn't necessarily "rich."

I'm sorry, but $250,000+ per year is rich and does result in wealth. Now irresponsible spending/living is another matter.

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Setting some arbitrary income level and attacking people over that level will not help this country. It will divide people.

1.5% of the population v. 98.5%. I'll take those odds in a class war...which this isn't.

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We already take care of the elderly, disabled, orphans, disenfranchised, etc.

Yes and it is the flat payroll tax that does the bulk of that heavy lifting. Evryone shares that burden the same...except those earning in excess of the social security wagebase of $105,000. Only the meager medicare tax extends to the full range of earnings.

Eldon · « **Reply #36 on:** June 25, 2008, 11:34:39 AM »

Quote

Well, well, well, the village idiot has made another worthless post.

Thanks for popping in with your irrelevant garbage.

It's starry-eyed pusses like you Ozark that haven't a clue how anything works in the world but you think you're a rugged libertarian individual with a real understanding how things should work. Don't you ape?

Come on Ozark, I've seen your BS before. Faced with the fact that Universal Healthcare in Britain is more effective than the US's privatized system and 40% cheaper, this pimplyfaced fatass screams "socialism". And then repeats it a dozen times like he split the atom.

You, Ozark, are what's wrong with this country.

Hello Hypocrite !!

nothing like a few facts to prove our fellow GetBig hypocrite wrong again.

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/socialized.html#britain

Great Britain's National Health Service (NHS) was created on July 5, 1948. As with all government programs, bureaucrats underestimated initial cost projections. First-year operating costs of NHS were 52 million pounds higher than original estimates1 as Britons saturated the so-called free system.

Many decades of shortages, misery and suffering followed until 1989, when some market-based health care competition was reintroduced to the British citizens2.

Unfortunately for those requiring care, a mostly socialist health care system still has problems. The articles and commentaries in this section identify some disasters caused by government intervention in the British health care system.

Pensioner, 76, forced to pull out own teeth after 12 NHS dentists refuse to treat her
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukdental3.html

Patient 'removed' from waiting list to meet target
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukremoved.html

One in eight patients waiting over a year for treatment, admits minister
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukoneineight.html

The drugs the NHS won't give you
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukdrugswont.html

UK lagging behind on cancer drug access, study finds
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/uklagbehind.html

UK lagging behind on cancer drug access, study finds
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/uklagbehind.html

Specialist stroke care 'lottery'
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/uklottery.html

Smokers and the obese banned from UK hospitals
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukobese.html

Cancer patients told life-prolonging treatment is too expensive for NHS
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukcancertx.html

Heart patients dying due to poor hospital care, says report
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukheartdelay2.html

NHS dentistry loses almost a million patients after new dentists' contract
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukdental4.html

Private healthcare managers could be sent to turn round failing NHS hospitals
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukfailnhs.html

Cancer patients ‘betrayed’ by NHS
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukcancerdrugs.html

NHS scandal: dying cancer victim was forced to pay
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukcancerdie.html

Dental patients face care lottery
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukdental2.html

Lung patients 'condemned to death as NHS withdraws their too expensive drugs'
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/uklungpatient.html

Women in labour turned away by maternity units
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukwomeninlabor.html

Health inequality has got worse under Labour, says government report
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukinequality.html

Eldon · « **Reply #37 on:** June 25, 2008, 11:39:57 AM »

Decker · « **Reply #38 on:** June 25, 2008, 11:44:22 AM »

Ozark, you're insane.

And your insane postings mean nothing to me.

Eldon · « **Reply #39 on:** June 25, 2008, 11:49:35 AM »

continued......

2,000 British doctors out of work
http://washingtontimes.com/upi/20050814-015326-4906r.htm

NHS faces rising bill for negligence claims
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e1b34ac2-07a7-11da-a742-00000e2511c8.html?nclick_check=1

British boy to go to India for operation
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukbritishboy.html

Top crimewriter funds drugs for cancer victim refused by NHS
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukcrime.html

Report says NHS is mired in huge debts
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukmired.html

U.K. set to restrict smoking
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukrestrictsmok.html

NHS ‘fund bias’ against men may cost 2,500 lives a year
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukfundbias.html

Doubts on funding NHS 'monuments'
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/27ab0ab8-d94c-11d9-8403-00000e2511c8.html

17 million reasons why we must improve hospital meals
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/ukmeals.html

Figures show more patients waiting for operations
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/jun/03/politics.publicservices

Scarcity of NHS dental treatment is revealed
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/

800 queue for NHS dentists
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?view=DETAILS&grid=P8&targetRule=10&xml=/health/2005/05/05/ndent03.xml

British health service facing nurse exodus
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/uknursesperyear.html

NHS debts soar to over £1bn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/

British taxpayers foot $26.5 million bill for abortion tourists
http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=36592

U.K. Liberal Democrats Would Raise Taxes to Pay for Health Care
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000102&sid=af4fx9hNVduw&refer=uk

'£500m hole' in hospital budgets
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/

NHS waiting list rises
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/feb/11/politics.publicservices

Tumour patients hit by NHS shortages
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2005/feb/06/NHS.medicineandhealth

'No strategy' on NHS waiting time
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4173073.stm

Heart patients die on waiting lists
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/personalfinance/s/133/133762_heart_patients_die_on_waiting_lists.html

Decker · « **Reply #40 on:** June 25, 2008, 11:52:33 AM »

Insanity: doing the same thing over and expecting different results.

Ozark, you are insane.

Your bullshit mass postings are as persuasive and legitimate as GW Bush at a MENSA meeting.

You are insane.

Eldon · « **Reply #41 on:** June 25, 2008, 11:57:14 AM »

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Insanity: doing the same thing over and expecting different results.

Ozark, you are insane.

Your bullshit mass postings are as persuasive and legitimate as GW Bush at a MENSA meeting.

You are insane.

Hello Hypocrite !

almost as pathetic as your hypocrisy in supporting John Edwards, who voted to send our troops off to War, while at the same time you talk trash on GetBig about our troops !

keep squirimng hypocrite

Decker · « **Reply #42 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:01:28 PM »

Quote from: Eldon on June 25, 2008, 11:57:14 AM

Hello Hypocrite !

almost as pathetic as your hypocrisy in supporting John Edwards, who voted to send our troops off to War, while at the same time you talk trash on GetBig about our troops !

keep squirimng hypocrite

You're insane Ozark/Eldon

headhuntersix · « **Reply #43 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:03:18 PM »

Oh I think we've proven that this crap won't work. According to u guys we're loosing Iraq...yet u want Uncle Sam to control health care..can't have it both ways gents.

Decker · « **Reply #44 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:05:22 PM »

Quote from: headhuntersix on June 25, 2008, 12:03:18 PM

Oh I think we've proven that this crap won't work. According to u guys we're loosing Iraq...yet u want Uncle Sam to control health care..can't have it both ways gents.

Waging a bad war is no indictment of UHC.

Soc. Sec. is the most successful government program in the country's history. I think UHC could rival program that if republicans and Big Insurance don't sabotage the effort.

Eldon · « **Reply #45 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:05:47 PM »

more facts for our fellow hypocrite Decker, who is full of shit

Decker · « **Reply #46 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:07:46 PM »

You're insane Ozark/Eldon.

Eldon · « **Reply #47 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:12:27 PM »

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You're insane Ozark/Eldon.

our fellow Hypocrite does not like the facts ?

Go look at your auto graphed photo of John Edwards some more.

Decker · « **Reply #48 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:24:24 PM »

Quote from: Eldon on June 25, 2008, 12:12:27 PM

our fellow Hypocrite does not like the facts ?

Go look at your auto graphed photo of John Edwards some more.

You're insane.

Your amalgam of articles proves nothing and your analyisi as fractured as your mind Ozark/Eldon.

Eldon · « **Reply #49 on:** June 25, 2008, 12:32:12 PM »

Quote

You're insane.

Your amalgam of articles proves nothing and your analyisi as fractured as your mind Ozark/Eldon.

Facts not important to a hypocrite...? Who would have thought

but since you asked :

Only six potency pills per month to be covered by Social Insurance Institution
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/potency.html

Hospitals on the verge of a breakdown
http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/index.html?siteSect=105&sid=4059652

Sweden Edges Toward Free-Market Medicine
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba369/

Netherlands aims to tackle health divide
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/neth.html

A Hard Lesson About Socialized Medicine
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6293

Paying The Price For Drugs In Europe
http://www.ncpa.org/pi/health/pd072100a.html

Surgery postponed indefinitely for 1,000 Kelowna patients
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/cansurgery3.html

Majority of Que. dentists quit health-care system
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/candentist2.html

Wait times for surgery, medical treatments at all-time high: report
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/cansurgery4.html

The Ugly Truth About Canadian Health Care
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/canuglytruth.html

Cancer patients question why PET scan not covered
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare/cancancer.html