What is the point of lifting heavy if you are natural?

[Rami]

like i said if you have to inject yourself with a chemical to work, have sex, etc. you're a pussy plain and simple.

WJ we have found something to agree on.

[musclehedz]

why not do it clean then?

I think the advantages of juice outweigh the negatives. I don't experience any side-effects at all. Not even during PCT for example. I still hear some people saying "it will get him in the end" but we haven't seen any examples of this happening.

The most important thing is to do it in moderation. Some idiots use more than 2 gram of test a week. Now that's just plain dumb. It's like drinking a full bottle of whiskey. Take a normal amount and everyone can harvest the benefits.

[WJ_Harley]

I think the advantages of juice outweigh the negatives. I don't experience any side-effects at all. Not even during PCT for example. I still hear some people saying "it will get him in the end" but we haven't seen any examples of this happening.

The most important thing is to do it in moderation. Some idiots use more than 2 gram of test a week. Now that's just plain dumb. It's like drinking a full bottle of whiskey. Take a normal amount and everyone can harvest the benefits.

why not do it clean just to prove to yourself that you have the mental strength and discipline to do it without the aid and crutch of a needle full of chemicals?

[Rami]

You sound like the typical fool who listens to the main-stream media when it comes to a.s. I trained natural for 7 years. I should have started earlier with chemical assistance. More size, hardness, better performance on my work, better sex life etc. etc. And i always had a great life even before my first cycle. I enjoyed every minute of it.

Getting a weeks worth of test in one shot, like on HRT for example, is NOT optimal. Unless you enjoy having your balls shriveled away. Almost every one can with help of nutrition and information restore normal natural test production. This is just typical for today's America, pop a pill and then 3 other pills for the side effects and never feel right in the mind. How fun is that, Having to rely on pills and needles, why go through the stress of always having to have it?  

Cold turkey EVERYTHING! You will feel like yourself again.

[musclehedz]

Getting a weeks worth of test in one shot, like on HRT for example, is NOT optimal. Unless you enjoy having your balls shriveled away. Almost every one can with help of nutrition and information restore normal natural test production. This is just typical for today's America, pop a pill and then 3 other pills for the side effects and never feel right in the mind. How fun is that, Having to rely on pills and needles, why go through the stress of always having to have it? 

Cold turkey EVERYTHING! You will feel like yourself again.

My balls are working better than ever. This is basically why cycling on - and off is very important.

Besides i don't even rely on it. I feel fine while being off. Been off for at least 12 months

[shiftedShapes]

After watching some of Layne Norton's videos on youtube, it's clear that you can become VERY strong without drugs and handle lot of weight also by using technique. but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.

I feel that his heavy training are a wasted effort and run by emotions. Is it pure ego thing? I guess some need it as a challenge?

Impressive for power lifting but to building a lean good looking healthy physique I don't see a point to it. When you are truly natural there is a limit on what size you can put on while strength can go quite high.

Actually it can be quite damaging and deteriorate your body while not doing anything for your physique.

I think you have to be patient or tone it down like you are emotionally almost not there to be able to stick with it in the long run as a natural. Else you will give up because you don't get the size, start using various drugs/supplements or injure yourself and mess up joints etc.

I give respect to Layne Norton for what he has achieved on paper, hard work is always impressive. But i think bodybuilding should be done for your own sake and not to win power lifting or competitions because it often just messes you up in the end.

It can ruin your body and ruin your thinking for the rest of your life. Just something we should keep in mind. I feel many on getbig are some of the most sane people and also natural.

I think the key is learning how to lift with great intensity using light weights.  It's all about leverage.

[Rami]

My balls are working better than ever. This is basically why cycling on - and off is very important.

Besides i don't even rely on it. I feel fine while being off. Been off for at least 12 months

That's great, if you say you feel fine while being off, and now been off for 12 months. Then why not simple stay that way?

[MCWAY]

But are you willing to risk injury to move those heavy weights? I'm willing to bet you are young. I started that way too. Always tried to increase strength, not muscle shape and health. Luckily I never got any bad injuries or tore anything, only minor temporary misshaps. Now I don't even use whey protein and doing better by learning what to eat for what works with my body. Before I wasn't really listening or thinking. Just doing it all out. Not good.

It sounds to me, as if you're equating strength, solely with heavy one-rep maximums. That's not the only way to increase strength.

If you bench 300 for 6 reps and 8 weeks later, you can bench 300 for 10 reps or 315 for six reps (or better still, 315 for 10 reps), you've become stronger.

The way you prevent injury is by warming up properly, eating plenty of good food, and gauging your body (lifting heavy when the joints and tendons are up to it, while scaling back in poundage when they're not). Every workout doesn't have to and shouldn't be and "all-out" one. That's how people get injured, thinking they have to torture themselves each session or they won't grow. As two famous bodybuilders put it:

"Train; don't strain" -  Bill Pearl, 4-time NABBA Mr. Universe (and professional strongman, I might add).

"Stimulate; don't annihilate" - Lee Haney, NPC National champion, IFBB Mr. Universe, 8-time Mr. Olympia.

[musclehedz]

That's great, if you say you feel fine while being off, and now been off for 12 months. Then why not simple stay that way?

A few reasons:

1. It sucks to be sore all week after some brutal training sessions. Every person knows it sucks to walk stairs or lift some objects after a brutal leg/shoulder training routine.
2. I'm aiming for a package that cannot be reached naturally (you can get VERY big without chemical assistance, but you won't maintain most of the size when cutting down very low om carbs and doing frequent cardio sessions)
3. Training becomes a lot more intense. You can push yourself harder. A very weird feeling that i cannot explain any further.
4. I don't have side-effects.

[musclehedz]

I think the key is learning how to lift with great intensity using light weights.  It's all about leverage.

The same guy tore his chest a few months ago. I rather train safely.

[Royalty]

Most people that are secure and happy dont seek out steroids.

Many people that I know that take steroids are very insecure, desperate people. They have weak minds, weak hearts, and get depressed when they are off the drugs too.

This doesnt apply to all steroid users. But it does seem apply to to large percentage of them.

[Rami]

A few reasons:

1. It sucks to be sore all week after some brutal training sessions. Every person knows it sucks to walk stairs or lift some objects after a brutal leg/shoulder training routine.
2. I'm aiming for a package that cannot be reached naturally (you can get VERY big without chemical assistance, but you won't maintain most of the size when cutting down very low om carbs and doing frequent cardio sessions)
3. Training becomes a lot more intense. You can push yourself harder. A very weird feeling that i cannot explain any further.
4. I don't have side-effects.

I respect that.

But I get scared the way I push myself in the gym sometimes as it is. I would probably fuck something up if I was chemically assisted.

I agree on #1, especially after super setting stiff leg dead lifts with front squats. I'm sore 6 days after sometimes...very inconvenient just trying to walk.

But I'm not aiming for super natural look or willing to mess with my endocrine system more than hard training already does.

[Earl1972]

Most people that are secure and happy dont seek out steroids.

Many people that I know that take steroids are very insecure, desperate people. They have weak minds, weak hearts, and get depressed when they are off the drugs too.

This doesnt apply to all steroid users. But it does seem apply to to large percentage of them.

the same can be said about religious people

E

[candidizzle]

But I'm not aiming for super natural look or willing to mess with my endocrine system more than hard training already does.

i wouldnt say that hard training "messes" with our endocrine system.

what do you mean ?

[Rami]

I meant to say the Central Nervous System. The Immune system, Adrenal glands etc can get fatigued when close to or at over training during cutting. Add "assistance" and you might recover faster but the immune system does not always keep up. Many professional athletes get suppressed immune system from cycling drugs and training hard. Anyone remember Kevin Randleman...

[MisterMagoo]

we all use chemicals. alcohol, caffeine, painkillers, probably more than a few of us use rougher rec drugs. people eat to feel better, lots probably use various legal supplements that still have a chemical effect on the brain.

people who demonize one drug undoubtedly use lots of others. there's not one person on this forum who doesn't use chemicals to some capacity.

[nicky.smth]

we all use chemicals. alcohol, caffeine, painkillers, probably more than a few of us use rougher rec drugs. people eat to feel better, lots probably use various legal supplements that still have a chemical effect on the brain.

people who demonize one drug undoubtedly use lots of others. there's not one person on this forum who doesn't use chemicals to some capacity.

Bingo,

[Eric2]

After watching some of Layne Norton's videos on youtube, it's clear that you can become VERY strong without drugs and handle lot of weight also by using technique. but it doesn't seam to do much for a natural physique.

I feel that his heavy training are a wasted effort and run by emotions. Is it pure ego thing? I guess some need it as a challenge?

Impressive for power lifting but to building a lean good looking healthy physique I don't see a point to it. When you are truly natural there is a limit on what size you can put on while strength can go quite high.

Actually it can be quite damaging and deteriorate your body while not doing anything for your physique.

I think you have to be patient or tone it down like you are emotionally almost not there to be able to stick with it in the long run as a natural. Else you will give up because you don't get the size, start using various drugs/supplements or injure yourself and mess up joints etc.

I give respect to Layne Norton for what he has achieved on paper, hard work is always impressive. But i think bodybuilding should be done for your own sake and not to win power lifting or competitions because it often just messes you up in the end.

It can ruin your body and ruin your thinking for the rest of your life. Just something we should keep in mind. I feel many on getbig are some of the most sane people and also natural.

   How is training for strength and power any different (ego-wise) than training for a good natural physique? Is having a great build not also great for the ego? Also it is a good idea to work on one's ego to some extent. Lifting heavy if done right will not ruin your body nor will it ruin your life.
  

[Rami]

we all use chemicals. alcohol, caffeine, painkillers, probably more than a few of us use rougher rec drugs. people eat to feel better, lots probably use various legal supplements that still have a chemical effect on the brain.

people who demonize one drug undoubtedly use lots of others. there's not one person on this forum who doesn't use chemicals to some capacity.

I tend to agree. I often think even food can be one of the worst drugs.

[Rami]

   How is training for strength and power any different (ego-wise) than training for a good natural physique? Is having a great build not also great for the ego? Also it is a good idea to work on one's ego to some extent. Lifting heavy if done right will not ruin your body nor will it ruin your life.
  

How do you know this when evidence point to the contrary? Lifting heavy for a long time and injuries tend to come. Look at Layne himself, Dorian, Ronnie, Levrone. It think the risk is unnecessarily. The risk of slipped discs in your back, torn pecs, pulled hamstrings, increases with weight and the cumulative wear and tear increases with weight. Yes there are people who get away with it or don't care, but there is a correlation. That is my only point.

[Eric2]

How do you know this when evidence point to the contrary? Lifting heavy for a long time and injuries tend to come. Look at Layne himself, Dorian, Ronnie, Levrone. It think the risk is unnecessarily. The risk of slipped discs in your back, torn pecs, pulled hamstrings, increases with weight and the cumulative wear and tear increases with weight. Yes there are people who get away with it or don't care, but there is a correlation. That is my only point.

   Evidence would point that these gentlemen used AAS which build muscle faster than tendon and ligament strenth can hold up too. I have witnessed full pec-tears with torn biceps from guys in gym who where both big and strong from AAS yet their tendon and ligamnet insertions could not hold up to the muscle strength.

[The ChemistV2]

I meant to say the Central Nervous System. The Immune system, Adrenal glands etc can get fatigued when close to or at over training during cutting. Add "assistance" and you might recover faster but the immune system does not always keep up. Many professional athletes get suppressed immune system from cycling drugs and training hard. Anyone remember Kevin Randleman...

What you say has a lot of truth. People who overtrain or under-recuperate often have suppressed immunity. In the short run, it may manifest in increased cold's or flus, but long term immunosuppression can lead to far worse disorders. Many people don't have a clue when they've overtaxed the adrenals. When that manifests in systemic and local inflammation, they go to a doctor and he'll give them corticosteroids, which only further weakens the adrenals. The "Hardcore" guys don't believe in any of this stuff. They believe in juicing till the've shut down their own hormone production and then saying, "Hey, I'll just go on HRT the rest of my life. Synthetic hormones work exactly the same as the body's own genetically coded hormones." But has anyone ever researched that on the cellular level and proven that? You sound pretty knowledgable about health Rami. Don't think your ideas will go over well here, however.

[Royalty]

there's not one person on this forum who doesn't use chemicals to some capacity.

Oh my.

Technically water (H20) is a chemical. ATP is a chemical. Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide are chemicals.

Oral or injectable Steroids are chemicals yes. But these exogenous chemicals are hormones that disrupt the hormonal cascade and endrocrine system in humans.