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Author Topic: Europe Promises Cheers For Obama - And Little Else  (Read 1069 times)
El_Pajero
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« Reply #25 on: July 12, 2008, 08:44:21 AM »

Yeah, I will do when the time calls, until then, the people must see the errors of their way.

the arabs in the rough neighbourhoods must be shivering in their pants  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #26 on: July 12, 2008, 08:48:01 AM »

the arabs in the rough neighbourhoods must be shivering in their pants  Roll Eyes

Why, are they cold? The ovens I'm preparing should heat them up! Grin
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« Reply #27 on: July 12, 2008, 08:49:17 AM »

You think everything would be hunky dory if Bush hadn't been elected? We shall never know.

No, but I do believe things would be much better than they are. Exactly what part of "worst American President ever" don't you understand?
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« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2008, 08:52:43 AM »

Practically uncontrolled immigration, political correctness, welfare states, not enough say by the citizens of the EU.

Uncontrolled immigration? Ok, maybe they could do a better job of it, although stopping or controlling immigration is imposible now, before and 600 years from now. We in the US a prime examples of that (just an example! I'm not trying to bring the US case into the mix!). Here in the US we're pretty much facing the same issues as in Europe and I wouldn't say we're a society in decay. In fact I'd say that socially speaking we're MUCH better off now than 60 years ago, and certainly much, much better off than 160 years ago. And I presume things will only get better.

Political correctness? Nope, I wouldn't call it political correctness, I'd call it class, and they have plenty more than we do. European countries accomplish pretty much the same things we do without having to go around the world killing thousands of people. Europe was a ravaged and COMPLETELY devastated continent after two world wars, and look, after 50 years they're pretty much (economically) rebuilt their continent to the point that they're pretty much even with us.

Welfare states? Are you fucking kidding me?! Light years beyond what we have. Even a blind man can see that!!!

Not enough say by the citizens of the EU? Ok, here in the US only 35-40% of the voting population actually vote, here in the US elections are regularly bought or stolen. Compare that with Europe, where voting turnout is regularly > 65-80% of the voting population and where people are WAY more politically active than us.

I don't get you man!
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« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2008, 08:53:18 AM »

No, but I do believe things would be much better than they are. Exactly what part of "worst American President ever" don't you understand?

What part of "frivolous" and "irrelevant" don't you understand? The people should be able to vote on major issues in Britain. Whether they chose the right or the wrong is up to them. Not a dictator.

Bush might well be the worst US President, where did I show my opinion on this matter?
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« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2008, 08:56:17 AM »

Uncontrolled immigration? Ok, maybe they could do a better job of it, although stopping or controlling immigration is imposible now, before and 600 years from now. We in the US a prime examples of that (just an example! I'm not trying to bring the US case into the mix!). Here in the US we're pretty much facing the same issues as in Europe and I wouldn't say we're a society in decay. In fact I'd say that socially speaking we're MUCH better off now than 60 years ago, and certainly much, much better off than 160 years ago. And I presume things will only get better.

Political correctness? Nope, I wouldn't call it political correctness, I'd call it class, and they have plenty more than we do. European countries accomplish pretty much the same things we do without having to go around the world killing thousands of people. Europe was a ravaged and COMPLETELY devastated continent after two world wars, and look, after 50 years they're pretty much (economically) rebuilt their continent to the point that they're pretty much even with us.

Welfare states? Are you fucking kidding me?! Light years beyond what we have. Even a blind man can see that!!!

Not enough say by the citizens of the EU? Ok, here in the US only 35-40% of the voting population actually vote, here in the US elections are regularly bought or stolen. Compare that with Europe, where voting turnout is regularly > 65-80% of the voting population and where people are WAY more politically active than us.

I don't get you man!

This current period may be better than 50 years ago, but this current period isn't the best it has been.

Most of your statements, and mine are personal interpretations. I have lived in the US and UK and several EU countries to have a nice grasp of how things are in the EU. I do have some experience, I don't base my opinions on nonsensical things.

Oh, and I'm certainly not against immigration. Illegal and/or immgration that doesn't benefit the country is specifically what I am against.
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« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2008, 09:08:12 AM »

This current period may be better than 50 years ago, but this current period isn't the best it has been.

Most of your statements, and mine are personal interpretations. I have lived in the US and UK and several EU countries to have a nice grasp of how things are in the EU. I do have some experience, I don't base my opinions on nonsensical things.

Oh, and I'm certainly not against immigration. Illegal and/or immgration that doesn't benefit the country is specifically what I am against.

And how exactly do you measure "better" or "best" in terms of a particular society? I mean, that is a subjective concept. If you ask a post-abolition African American what times he'd rather live in 99.99% of them would tell you "post-abolition," while if you throw the slave owner the same question, let's be realistic, he'd most likely tell you "pre-abolition". Now we all know that slavery was wrong and that the post-abolition period was a BETTER American society. Although some people will disagree. Don't you agree?

I've also lived in a European country for many, many years (Spain) and are fairly well-traveled (and open minded) and frankly do not base my opinions on nonesense.

Immigration is needed in every country at all levels and times. Without immigration a country turns into a a stale society capable of the best and worst (look at Nazi Germany).
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« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2008, 10:28:50 AM »

And how exactly do you measure "better" or "best" in terms of a particular society? I mean, that is a subjective concept. If you ask a post-abolition African American what times he'd rather live in 99.99% of them would tell you "post-abolition," while if you throw the slave owner the same question, let's be realistic, he'd most likely tell you "pre-abolition". Now we all know that slavery was wrong and that the post-abolition period was a BETTER American society. Although some people will disagree. Don't you agree?

I've also lived in a European country for many, many years (Spain) and are fairly well-traveled (and open minded) and frankly do not base my opinions on nonesense.

Immigration is needed in every country at all levels and times. Without immigration a country turns into a a stale society capable of the best and worst (look at Nazi Germany).

So your nullyfing your own suggestion that it's better now than at any time in the past? Why must I be limited by you, when you're making a similar statement yourself? Huh

Don't be an hypocrite:

Quote
In fact I'd say that socially speaking we're MUCH better off now than 60 years ago, and certainly much, much better off than 160 years ago. And I presume things will only get better.

Nazi Germany wasn't stale. Poor example IMO.
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« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2008, 03:30:33 PM »

Thanks w8tlftr. It is a shame, on the other hand she will probably be senate majority leader in a few years.  Wink

You're welcome.

I can definitely see Hillary becoming the Senate majority or minority leader.

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« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2008, 05:44:57 PM »

So your nullyfing your own suggestion that it's better now than at any time in the past? Why must I be limited by you, when you're making a similar statement yourself? Huh

Nope. I'm not nullifying anything. What I'm saying is that if you compare pre-abolishment vs post-abolishment America then it is no longer a subjective concept, it is a fact that post-abolishment America is a better society. Even if you are a racist and "think" otherwise. Now, if you compare the US now a the US of 5 months from now then, unless a major positive social change has taken place, then your opinion is as good as mine.

But I think you're talking about the UK, not the US. Are you British?

Quote
Nazi Germany wasn't stale. Poor example IMO.

No, I'd say otherwise. Nazi Germany is a prime example.
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« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2008, 03:06:40 AM »

Nope. I'm not nullifying anything. What I'm saying is that if you compare pre-abolishment vs post-abolishment America then it is no longer a subjective concept, it is a fact that post-abolishment America is a better society. Even if you are a racist and "think" otherwise. Now, if you compare the US now a the US of 5 months from now then, unless a major positive social change has taken place, then your opinion is as good as mine.

But I think you're talking about the UK, not the US. Are you British?

No, I'd say otherwise. Nazi Germany is a prime example.

I'm talking years, decades.

You're going to have to explain your use of stale in regards to Nazi Germany. I may or not agree with you depending on the meaning.
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« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2008, 03:19:12 AM »

Team Third Reich representing!
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« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2008, 05:56:24 AM »

I'm talking years, decades.

You're going to have to explain your use of stale in regards to Nazi Germany. I may or not agree with you depending on the meaning.

Well, let's take 1950's Birmingham, Alabama. If you compare Birmingham's society back in the 50's with it's total segregationist policies vs today's Birmingham we can honestly say that, from a human point of view, Birmingham's society is a BETTER society nowadays because it is not fragmented and human rights are actually being observed. And whatever comes next will most likely be a better Alabama, because this time around we know what is wrong and what is right.

Also, remember, 99% of what I've said is my opinion, nothing else nothing more. However, and going back to the subject at hand, we all in the US, unless you're an Native American, are illegal aliens. That is if you observe the very same laws that many people insist on applying to the ones WE now deem legal or illegal.
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« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2008, 06:43:03 AM »

[...]You're going to have to explain your use of stale in regards to Nazi Germany. I may or not agree with you depending on the meaning.

Well, what happened in Germany was not an isolated even by any stretch of the imagination, I'll say that to begin with. Europe hasn't always been a welcoming place until a couple of decades ago. I mean, look, what happened in Germany happened in Spain from the 1500 to the 1700 and in France a century or so later. What am I saying with all of this? To make things plain and simple, Europe has always been ruled by 2-3 things: The church, feudal system and as of lately people with money. Now, 100 years ago all they had was the church and the feudal systems sucking the blood out of the Europeans. The Church was doing "God's good work" by instilling an irrational hate for foreigners/non-Christians, especially jews (in fact, even nowadays, in some places, in Europe being called a "jew" is an insult). Fast forward to the 1920s and 30s: Marxism, fascism, etc. All movements that posed a challenge to the bipolar system of power: the church and the feudal system. What was the response to all of this? Well, a turn back to the way Europe "used to be". Romanticism 101. Due to all these movements European societies began to close the doors on anything that wasn't "country" and went back to self-adoring their origins. Now, we all know that what they were really hating is the semislavery conditions they had to endure on a daily basis, so eventually all that hate brewed through the decades (which resulted in two world wars and countless others) had to go somewhere and the victim was... well, the preferred victim in Europe: the Jews. In reality, it was more than the Jews, there were Gysies, communists, anarchysts, etc. Spain, for christsake! 40 years totally isollated because of the Generalísimo Franco. What did he do as soon as he overthrew the democratically elected republican president? Restore the church in positions of power (they had been totally isolated by the republicans) and restore the monarchy (the feudal system).

Where am I gettin with all of this? Well, it's not really the immigrants that are the problem (unless you're talking about the radical muslim types, which are human garbage and shouldn't be allowed anywhere but their own countries) it's our fear-mongering. Upper classes use the immigrants as a "you see what will happen to you if you do not participate?" type of response to an active political population. And this is where nazi Germany comes in, because they were the last of the Mohicans in trying to make create a Valhalla for "their people" (although, let's not forget, one Hitler's goals was to "cleanse" Europe) in which an irrational hate or dislike for whatever that was not "like them" was instilled in the very young. Now, see what happened to Germany between the time of the German Empire to the reunification period and you tell me whether German society is better off now or not.

I hope I got the point accross (although a historian would've killed me for turning 300 year-long events in 1-liners though).
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« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2008, 07:33:50 AM »

Well, let's take 1950's Birmingham, Alabama. If you compare Birmingham's society back in the 50's with it's total segregationist policies vs today's Birmingham we can honestly say that, from a human point of view, Birmingham's society is a BETTER society nowadays because it is not fragmented and human rights are actually being observed. And whatever comes next will most likely be a better Alabama, because this time around we know what is wrong and what is right.

Also, remember, 99% of what I've said is my opinion, nothing else nothing more. However, and going back to the subject at hand, we all in the US, unless you're an Native American, are illegal aliens. That is if you observe the very same laws that many people insist on applying to the ones WE now deem legal or illegal.

My statements were entirely to do with my perspective on living in a few EU countries, not Birmingham, Alabama.

On the topic of Nazi Germany, we were looking at it from different angles. The angle you've just described I totally agree with.
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« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2008, 08:38:12 AM »

My statements were entirely to do with my perspective on living in a few EU countries, not Birmingham, Alabama.

On the topic of Nazi Germany, we were looking at it from different angles. The angle you've just described I totally agree with.


Nordic, the Birmingham example was just that, an example... And I did say so in the comment.

On Nazi Germany we seem to agree on that we agree.
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« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2008, 11:07:59 AM »

I agree that part of it is foreign policy but I also feel there is some deep hope from European leaders where they don't want the US to be a superpower with the kind of strength we had the last 50-60yrs.  I don't believe the two ideas are separate actually.  They probably prefer us to be closer to them on both an economic and military front.  (I'm all for a change in US international policy that puts diplomacy 1st, 2nd and 3rd and military as a last resort)
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« Reply #42 on: June 18, 2013, 09:09:06 AM »

Obama loses German hearts and minds ahead of Berlin visit
Yahoo News ^  | 18 Jun 2013 | Marc Young

Posted on Tuesday, June 18, 2013 10:29:19 AM by mandaladon

BERLIN—When Barack Obama last visited Berlin back in 2008, Constanze Fröhlich felt like she was part of history. “He was about to become the first black president—I wanted to support that,” the 35-year-old university researcher told Yahoo News. “It was really amazing so many people were there.” Back then, in a surprising outpouring of Teutonic affection for Obama, a euphoric crowd of 200,000 turned up to hear the Democratic presidential contender speak in the German capital. “People of the world: Look at Berlin, where a wall came down, a continent came together, and history proved that there is no challenge too great for a world that stands as one,” he told the rapturous masses. “This city, of all cities, knows the dream of freedom.” But five years later, Germany’s love affair with the U.S. president has gone cold. Obama can still expect Chancellor Angela Merkel to give him a grand reception on his official two-day visit. But his high-profile speech on Wednesday in front of the city’s Brandenburg Gate—almost exactly 50 years after John F. Kennedy’s historic “Ich bin ein Berliner” address—will be given to a vetted audience of only a few thousand. And it’s doubtful hundreds of thousands would have turned up to listen to Obama had it been open to the public anyway. Average Germans these days appear at best mildly disillusioned and at worst deeply angry with the man who promised hope and change. “I thought it was great that he became president. But there’s more distance now. He’s been consumed by daily politics,” said Fröhlich.


(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
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