Way to go Paplebon.

[body88]

Yes, jealous of Boston's success.

I believe it was a NY team that decimated what all you Boston fags were calling the greatest sports team ever assembled. 

And jealous of the Red Sox? Congratulations, only a retard would expect the Yankees to be dominant forever. It's called rebuilding, everyone does it. You know, like the 86 years Boston spent doing it? 

Number of Boston titles in the last 8 years - 7

New York - 1



Also, when are you going to answer this post :

Mo's not better, because he hasn't pitched well when all the marbles where on the table in a long time. Also, Pap was the better pitcher in 2006 and 2007 (even winning a title). Since Pap came into the league, he has been better than Mo, according to the stats. Lower era, more so's, more saves and he helped his team win a world series. Currently, Pap and Mo's stats are very close, and I could give a shit if a couple of bad starts has Paps era a tad higher. Your ignoring the fact that Pap is a young kid, and talking about how much older Mo is than Pap. Experience means something in this game, and Pap is only going to get better. You act like there is a huge disparity in the stats, not really. One bad game for Mo, and Pap is better. As I said before, The era is the only difference, and a single bad start for Pap raised it a run over Mo's. Are you telling me that if Mo goes out, and has a single bad start, while pap drops his era back to Normal, Mo is all the sudden going to be the worse player? Thats what your argument is saying.

You know for a fact Pap wont be on Mo's level? Lets look at the stats over the first three years of their careers ( pap = bold ):

Saves    0, 35, 37   - 0, 5, 43    Total : 72 - 48

ERA      2.65, 0.98, 1.85  -  5.51, 2.09, 1.88  Total : No idea, but paps is lower.

BOOM

[Grape Ape]

Just out of curiousity are you counting BC or Johnny Ruiz or something, because I'm counting 6 - 3 Pats, 2 sox, 1 Celtics.

Anyway, don't you have to multiply all Pats titles by .2 since they represent Maine, Vermont, NH and Connecticut as well?

That gives boston 4.6 titles, with the BC one.

[CalvinH]

Not aruging - but do you have links to the articles that said the first part and Rodriguez's comments.  I'd honestly just be interested in reading them.

I think Papelbon is a bona fide idiot, but don't want blame him for something he didn't deserve. 

Sorry no links .I read the article in the paper early in the week and threw the paper away.


trust me I'm a die hard Yanks fan and would bash the hell outta Papelbon if he deserved it

[Grape Ape]

Sorry no links .I read the article in the paper early in the week and threw the paper away.


trust me I'm a die hard Yanks fan and would bash the hell outta Papelbon if he deserved it

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get another chance.  He's already pressured the sox into giving him more money, and it's only his third year.

[body88]

Just out of curiousity are you counting BC or Johnny Ruiz or something, because I'm counting 6 - 3 Pats, 2 sox, 1 Celtics.

Anyway, don't you have to multiply all Pats titles by .2 since they represent Maine, Vermont, NH and Connecticut as well?

That gives boston 4.6 titles, with the BC one.

Yes, I'm counting the BC title, and no I don't have to multiply it, Fury is from CT which has nothing to do with NY. Boston is the largest part of the region that the pats represent, which by default makes the city part of the equation. Also, Boston is the largest major city in the state of MA  ( the state where the stadium is located), and where the vast majority of the fans live. For the record, the patriots originated in Boston , and they where called the Boston patriots. The New England name has more to do with land, and capitalizing on the fans north of Boston, that have always rooted for the team.

No matter how you slice it, over the last decade, Boston sports teams have dominated sports.

[body88]

Don't worry, I'm sure you'll get another chance.  He's already pressured the sox into giving him more money, and it's only his third year.

Why do you care so much? Pap deserves the money he is asking....the kids brash, and thats what makes him so successful. It's not like he doesent deserve the money he is asking, and he wants to play for the sox long term. He wants to set himself up, and he has worked hard to do so. You may hate the guy, but he has been awesome for us here in Boston, and since he came in to the league, a better closer - ( as a whole) than Mo. The laundry list of Yankees buffoons runs long and deep. Who is the player who is in all the headlines these days ( for all the wrong reasons)?


In regards to the article Calvin is talking about, why sidestep your original comments, if Pap was set up to look bad?

[Grape Ape]

Yes, I'm counting the BC title, and no I don't have to multiply it, Fury is from CT which has nothing to do with NY. Boston is the largest part of the region that the pats represent, which by default makes the city part of the equation. Also, Boston is the largest major city in the state of MA  ( the state where the stadium is located), and where the vast majority of the fans live. For the record, the patriots originated in Boston , and they where called the Boston patriots. The New England name has more to do with land, and capitalizing on the fans north of Boston, that have always rooted for the team.

No matter how you slice it, over the last decade, Boston sports teams have dominated sports.

You weren't supposed answer that seriously.  On my home message board, we'd be saying you owed me a beer.

[Grape Ape]

Why do you care so much? Pap deserves the money he is asking....the kids brash, and thats what makes him so successful. It's not like he doesent deserve the money he is asking, and he wants to play for the sox long term. He wants to set himself up, and he has worked hard to do so. You may hate the guy, but he has been awesome for us here in Boston, and since he came in to the league, a better closer - ( as a whole) than Mo. The laundry list of Yankees buffoons runs long and deep. Who is the player who is in all the headlines these days ( for all the wrong reasons)?


In regards to the article Calvin is talking about, why sidestep your original comments, if Pap was set up to look bad?

I don't care for the way Papelbon acts on the field or off the field.  After six years of MLB service, good players have all the leverage, and get incredible paydays as either free agents from other teams or their current teams have to open up the wallets.  The tradeoff is that they're cost controlled by their teams in the early years.  It's a give and take - they get you early on the cheap, and, if you're good, you get the money in your peak years and, often, you get overpaid in your decline.  Papelbon (and Pedroia) were already talking "not taking a home town discount" and "setting the market" for their positions when free agency comes.  It's arrogant, and, very presumtive.  If you heard a Yankee bitching about money and talking about all the money he's going to make in FA in FOUR YEARS you'd think he's a jackass too.

I also hate the fact that every time he blows a save, there's some cosmic reason as to why it happened, like there's no way HE could just possilbly get beat.  I've seen quotes like "I just wasn't into it" and "didn't have enough time to warm up".  In contrast, when Rivera gets beat he just says he didn't do his job and he'll get them next time.

The guy's been in the league two years and his shoulder fell out in one of them, yet he compares himself to the greatest  player there ever was at their position.  I've seen many quotes from ballplayers themeselves (Joe Nathan comes to mind) saying that he could use a little humilty.

It has nothing to do with his pitching ability.  I'll check the numbers later for his first three years vs. Rivera's but I do remember in 1996 Rivera went 17 innings without giving up a HIT.  His IP also dwarfs Papelbon's, but that's just my memory speaking.  I have a feeling doing the research will be splitting hairs - meaning there's probably legitimate arguments for both sides.

I asked about the article because if I was wrong and he was set up to look bad, I want to admit my mistake.

[Fury]

I don't care for the way Papelbon acts on the field or off the field.  After six years of MLB service, good players have all the leverage, and get incredible paydays as either free agents from other teams or their current teams have to open up the wallets.  The tradeoff is that they're cost controlled by their teams in the early years.  It's a give and take - they get you early on the cheap, and, if you're good, you get the money in your peak years and, often, you get overpaid in your decline.  Papelbon (and Pedroia) were already talking "not taking a home town discount" and "setting the market" for their positions when free agency comes.  It's arrogant, and, very presumtive.  If you heard a Yankee bitching about money and talking about all the money he's going to make in FA in FOUR YEARS you'd think he's a jackass too.

I also hate the fact that every time he blows a save, there's some cosmic reason as to why it happened, like there's no way HE could just possilbly get beat.  I've seen quotes like "I just wasn't into it" and "didn't have enough time to warm up".  In contrast, when Rivera gets beat he just says he didn't do his job and he'll get them next time.

The guy's been in the league two years and his shoulder fell out in one of them, yet he compares himself to the greatest  player there ever was at their position.  I've seen many quotes from ballplayers themeselves (Joe Nathan comes to mind) saying that he could use a little humilty.

It has nothing to do with his pitching ability.  I'll check the numbers later for his first three years vs. Rivera's but I do remember in 1996 Rivera went 17 innings without giving up a HIT.  His IP also dwarfs Papelbon's, but that's just my memory speaking.  I have a feeling doing the research will be splitting hairs - meaning there's probably legitimate arguments for both sides.

I asked about the article because if I was wrong and he was set up to look bad, I want to admit my mistake.

Read above. Body88 made excuses for him in this very thread but chastises Mo for ONE mistake made 4 years ago. Typical Boston bullshit. 

[body88]

Read above. Body88 made excuses for him in this very thread but chastises Mo for ONE mistake made 4 years ago. Typical Boston bullshit. 

I see your still avoiding this post......

Mo's not better, because he hasn't pitched well when all the marbles where on the table in a long time. Also, Pap was the better pitcher in 2006 and 2007 (even winning a title). Since Pap came into the league, he has been better than Mo, according to the stats. Lower era, more so's, more saves and he helped his team win a world series. Currently, Pap and Mo's stats are very close, and I could give a shit if a couple of bad starts has Paps era a tad higher. Your ignoring the fact that Pap is a young kid, and talking about how much older Mo is than Pap. Experience means something in this game, and Pap is only going to get better. You act like there is a huge disparity in the stats, not really. One bad game for Mo, and Pap is better. As I said before, The era is the only difference, and a single bad start for Pap raised it a run over Mo's. Are you telling me that if Mo goes out, and has a single bad start, while pap drops his era back to Normal, Mo is all the sudden going to be the worse player? Thats what your argument is saying.

You know for a fact Pap wont be on Mo's level? Lets look at the stats over the first three years of their careers ( pap = bold ):

Saves    0, 35, 37   - 0, 5, 43    Total : 72 - 48

ERA      2.65, 0.98, 1.85  -  5.51, 2.09, 1.88  Total : No idea, but paps is lower.

Thats what I thought 

[Grape Ape]

I see your still avoiding this post......




Thats what I thought 

I haven't had the chance to look things up, but since you keep posting this, I''ll tell you right off the bat what's completely wrong with your argument.

Rivera was a STARTER in 95 and a set up man in 1996, so comparing the amount of saves means absolutely nothing. Even without that, saves are also largely a product of opportunity, meaning it's not in the closer's hand how many chances he has.

In addition, ERA is horrible stat to measure the effectiveness of a closer due to small sample size of innings.  In other words, a whopping total of 3 ER can be lead to a major difference in ERA.  This is all without any stat mining, but maybe this week I'll dive into it.

[body88]

I haven't had the chance to look things up, but since you keep posting this, I''ll tell you right off the bat what's completely wrong with your argument.

Rivera was a STARTER in 95 and a set up man in 1996, so comparing the amount of saves means absolutely nothing. Even without that, saves are also largely a product of opportunity, meaning it's not in the closer's hand how many chances he has.

In addition, ERA is horrible stat to measure the effectiveness of a closer due to small sample size of innings.  In other words, a whopping total of 3 ER can be lead to a major difference in ERA.  This is all without any stat mining, but maybe this week I'll dive into it.

The first year Pap was in the big leauges, was he a closer? Also, so what if Mo was a set up man, pap started out in the same roll I believe, and also was considered to start. I looked at the numbers and compared save attemps vs era. I used the stats that where in front of me, and compared the attemps to the era. I think ip is pretty close over the first three years.... Not a Yankees fan, so I used baseball referance to get the stats. Also, my point in posting those stats over and over was to see if Fury knew what he was talking about, when he said Pap cannot be compared to MO. You looked at the stats, and it jogged your memory as to why it might not be as cut and dry as it seemed, that Pap was better.Fury ignored the post, because he had no clue if his actual comments could be backed up by stats and performance.

Please compile the stats, and let me know what you find.


This is what MO looks like vs the sox over the last five years :

total saves vs. boston - 21

blown saves vs. boston - 10

50/50

[body88]

I don't care for the way Papelbon acts on the field or off the field.  After six years of MLB service, good players have all the leverage, and get incredible paydays as either free agents from other teams or their current teams have to open up the wallets.  The tradeoff is that they're cost controlled by their teams in the early years.  It's a give and take - they get you early on the cheap, and, if you're good, you get the money in your peak years and, often, you get overpaid in your decline.  Papelbon (and Pedroia) were already talking "not taking a home town discount" and "setting the market" for their positions when free agency comes.  It's arrogant, and, very presumtive.  If you heard a Yankee bitching about money and talking about all the money he's going to make in FA in FOUR YEARS you'd think he's a jackass too.

I also hate the fact that every time he blows a save, there's some cosmic reason as to why it happened, like there's no way HE could just possibly get beat.  I've seen quotes like "I just wasn't into it" and "didn't have enough time to warm up".  In contrast, when Rivera gets beat he just says he didn't do his job and he'll get them next time.

The guy's been in the league two years and his shoulder fell out in one of them, yet he compares himself to the greatest player there ever was at their position.  I've seen many quotes from ballplayers themeselves (Joe Nathan comes to mind) saying that he could use a little humility.

It has nothing to do with his pitching ability.  I'll check the numbers later for his first three years vs. Rivera's but I do remember in 1996 Rivera went 17 innings without giving up a HIT.  His IP also dwarfs Papelbon's, but that's just my memory speaking.  I have a feeling doing the research will be splitting hairs - meaning there's probably legitimate arguments for both sides.

I asked about the article because if I was wrong and he was set up to look bad, I want to admit my mistake.

Your beef comes with the current state of the MLB, and the players union. Guys want to get paid for there services, and Dustin and Pap have a legit argument as to why they should get their $. They have both played MAJOR roles in the 2 ws wins the sox have in the last 3 years. Also, your argument is opinion. I have personally seen Pap and Dustin do EVERYTHING that has been asked from them. Regardless of what they want for money, they are still going out and giving 110% on the field. Thats all the matters, and I would never fault a player for wanting to get paid, and to sign long term with a team they love... They have proven their worth IMO. I would only fault them if they threw hissy fits, refused to play, or threw games. Sort of like what Manny is starting to do. I say trade his ass. How many Yankees have come right from the farm recently, and played Major roles over the span of two years, to help the Yankees win titles? Pap and Dustin are both all star players, they want to get paid like it. Why not lock them up long term? They both want to skip the FA game, and stay in Boston. Why worry about it? If Boston fans don't think it's a huge issue, why does NY? IMHO, thats a media that is mining for reason to take shots, because their team isn't winning titles anymore.

Also, so what if Pap makes comments? I have heard the kid take responsibility for his pitching many times. You get what the New York media gives to you, and they are the same media that called him Paplebum in a headline? A bum? Right, bums are a team full of hugely overpaid players, who have a huge advantage over the rest of the MLB and they cant win - aka, the modern day Yankees. At least the sox are winning. If pap was ever a free agent, the Yankees would sign him in a second. The kids brash crass and he does his job when it counts. Daring to compare himself to the greatest closer ever? Thats nothing more than self righteous Yankees fans huffing and puffing at a kid who is confident, and has backed it up on the big stage.

I would bet you, if you followed the sox game by game, and listened to paps post game comments, you would feel a bit differently.


Btw, Paps shoulder didn't fall out......Tito was using him to much, and they gave him a rest. His shoulder is fine.

[body88]

Read above. Body88 made excuses for him in this very thread but chastises Mo for ONE mistake made 4 years ago. Typical Boston bullshit. 

Excuses, I said a few bad games has his era a run higher than mo's, and he didn't perform well at the all star game. Deflection is the name of your game my friend.

I can recall Mo blowing a lot more than 1 important save over the last four years. Also, why are you ignoring the fact I called him the greatest closer ever?

Mos stats vs the sox over the last 5 years :

total saves vs. boston - 21

blown saves vs. boston - 10

50/50.....He may be automatic, but not vs the Red Sox.

[Earl1972]

No matter how you slice it, over the last decade, Boston sports teams have dominated sports.

i remember in 2001 when colorado won the cup, ray bourque took the cup to boston and they celebrated like they won it

jim rome called boston the biggest loser in sports

funny how things change

E