Author Topic: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...  (Read 9707 times)

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2008, 10:11:36 AM »
If the Label is what's importantant, it's simple, name in what way we've misused the label?  You know well the initial thread, let's go into the issue.  Name how we've misused the label?  Please, I'm happy to listen, how have I misused the label?

No, actually I don't "know well" the thread.  If I did I would gladly answer your question at once.  Be patient.. neither of us is going anywhere.

I will say your side attacks those you label "neocons" for typical conservative principles (strong nat'l defense, free market capitalism, strict constructionism, minimal handouts, etc).  I think you have a problem with the foundations of Reagan conservatism but saying it's the "neocons" sounds worse so you label it as such instead.


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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2008, 10:21:29 AM »
I will say your side attacks those you label "neocons" for typical conservative principles (strong nat'l defense, free market capitalism, strict constructionism, minimal handouts, etc).  I think you have a problem with the foundations of Reagan conservatism but saying it's the "neocons" sounds worse so you label it as such instead.

Neocons like massive federal beaucracies, like DHS. 
Constitutional/traiditional repubs do not.

Neocons like nation-building and massive colonialism and consumerism exportation.
Constitutional/traiditional repubs do not.

Neocons like to borrow a ton of money to do it.
Constitutional/traiditional repubs do not.

Neocons like to use the full war machine in multiple countries.
Constitutional/traiditional repubs prefer small teams to take out leaders and replace them with minimal cost or bloodshed.

Neocons lessen consitutional rights (pat act)
Constitutional/traiditional repubs try to expand constitutional rights.

Constitutional/traiditional repubs are urging Bush to get out of Iraq.
(remember the iraq study group).

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #27 on: August 17, 2008, 10:25:25 AM »
No, actually I don't "know well" the thread.  If I did I would gladly answer your question at once.  Be patient.. neither of us is going anywhere.

I will say your side attacks those you label "neocons" for typical conservative principles (strong nat'l defense, free market capitalism, strict constructionism, minimal handouts, etc).  I think you have a problem with the foundations of Reagan conservatism but saying it's the "neocons" sounds worse so you label it as such instead.


Holy shit you couldn't be more wrong...  I'm all for strong national defense.  I do not blame neoconservatives for free market capitalism, (that's silly) or minimal handouts.  I am very specific in what I have blamed on neocons and it has always been in direct response to their own words and actions as self identified neoconservities...  Not only that, but I often side with people like Pat Buchanan in issues relating to neoconservatvies as do many self aware conservatives of which I am not one but sympathize with on occasion when the issue compells me to.

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #28 on: August 17, 2008, 10:42:27 AM »
Neocons like massive federal beaucracies, like DHS. 
Constitutional/traiditional repubs do not.

Conservatives diverging from conservative values, NOT neoconservatism.

Neocons like nation-building and massive colonialism and consumerism exportation.
Constitutional/traiditional repubs do not.

Does free market capitalism allow this?  YES.  If companies can make a better profit elsewhere who is the gov't to say they cannot?  That certainly isn't conservatism.  And with Democrats seeking to punish every company making a profit with taxes, taxes, and taxes I can hardly blame them.  Business' purpose it TO MAKE A PROFIT... you of all people should know this.

As for nation-building, do we not have a responsibility to help the society greatly affected by OUR conflict?  If you say "no" that's fine but I'm just curious how you answer this.

Neocons like to borrow a ton of money to do it.
Constitutional/traiditional repubs do not.

Conservatives diverging from conservative values, NOT neoconservatism.

Neocons like to use the full war machine in multiple countries.
Constitutional/traiditional repubs prefer small teams to take out leaders and replace them with minimal cost or bloodshed.

So fighting a war with ground forces and then following through by helping the country get its shit together afterwards violates conservative principles?  I think not.  With Iraq, let's say we had Delta assassinate Saddam.  How long would it have been before he was replaced with someone just as bad?  Destroying a regime like that, especially in that kind of culture, takes the brunt of a full fledged operation.  I think you're being a little idealistic.

Neocons lessen consitutional rights (pat act)
Constitutional/traiditional repubs try to expand constitutional rights.

How much the Patriot Act actually affected constitutional rights is debatable.  Many conservatives argue it was necessary and how many regular Americans has this impacted their liberties? 

Constitutional/traiditional repubs are urging Bush to get out of Iraq.
(remember the iraq study group).

Wrong.  Many American conservatives still support what we're doing over there.  Even many who think the war shouldn't have happened agree that we have a responsibility to clean up what we started.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #29 on: August 17, 2008, 10:44:19 AM »
 ???

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #30 on: August 17, 2008, 10:45:40 AM »
Holy shit you couldn't be more wrong...  I'm all for strong national defense.  I do not blame neoconservatives for free market capitalism, (that's silly) or minimal handouts.  I am very specific in what I have blamed on neocons and it has always been in direct response to their own words and actions as self identified neoconservities...  Not only that, but I often side with people like Pat Buchanan in issues relating to neoconservatvies as do many self aware conservatives of which I am not one but sympathize with on occasion when the issue compells me to.

I think what you have a problem with is not neoconservatism.  Neoconservatism is VERY close to traditional conservativism.

I think you have a problem with irresponsible spending, massive beurocracy, greed, power hungry politicians, and gov't abuse and misinformation in general.  None of that is a staple of ANY form of conservatism.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #31 on: August 17, 2008, 10:57:20 AM »
I think what you have a problem with is not neoconservatism.  Neoconservatism is VERY close to traditional conservativism.

I think you have a problem with irresponsible spending, massive beurocracy, greed, power hungry politicians, and gov't abuse and misinformation in general.  None of that is a staple of ANY form of conservatism.
FUCKING WRONG ::)  I have always been and will always be very specific in my criticism of neoconservative moves.  I am well aware of the differences between conservative and neoconservative and have studdied the movements in depth.  Now, fucking name where I have mislabeled as such ;)  Now please...

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #32 on: August 17, 2008, 11:08:29 AM »
FUCKING WRONG ::)  I have always been and will always be very specific in my criticism of neoconservative moves.  I am well aware of the differences between conservative and neoconservative and have studdied the movements in depth.  Now, fucking name where I have mislabeled as such ;)  Now please...

I don't think I'm wrong at all.  You and your side have been doing it as long as I have seen you on this board.  I think your "studies" don't mean a thing next to your hatred for conservativism and you've already shown that you will say anything to make us look bad, truthfully or not.

Without a link to the thread I can't quote what you said and satisfactorily answer your question.  You can either wait for RPfan to check this since he obviously knows which one it is or you can find it yourself.  The moment I can answer after re-reading the original post I'll be more than happy to.

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #33 on: August 17, 2008, 11:14:13 AM »
I don't agree with everything here but just some interesting things to consider, from wiki:


Distinctions from other conservatives

Most neoconservatives are members of the Republican Party. They have been in electoral alignment with other conservatives and served in the same presidential administrations. While they have often ignored ideological differences in alliance against those to their left, neoconservatives differ from traditional or paleoconservatives. In particular, they disagree with nativism, protectionism, and non-interventionism in foreign policy, ideologies rooted in American history and exemplified by former Republican paleoconservative Pat Buchanan. Compared with traditional conservatism and libertarianism, which may be non-interventionist, neoconservatism emphasizes defense capability, challenging regimes hostile to the values and interests of the United States[citation needed], and pressing for free-market policies abroad[citation needed]. Neoconservatives also believe in democratic peace theory, the proposition that democracies never or almost never go to war with one another.

Neoconservatives disagree with political realism in foreign policy[citation needed], often associated with Richard Nixon and Henry Kissinger. Though Republican and anti-communist, Nixon and Kissinger made pragmatic accommodation with dictators and sought peace through negotiations, diplomacy, and arms control. They pursued détente with the Soviet Union, rather than rollback, and established relations with the communist People's Republic of China.

Criticism of the term neoconservative

Some of those identified as neoconservative reject the term, arguing that it lacks a coherent definition, or that it was coherent only in the context of the Cold War.

Conservative writer David Horowitz argues that the increasing use of the term neoconservative since the 2003 start of the Iraq War has made it irrelevant:[citation needed]

    Neo-conservatism is a term almost exclusively used by the enemies of America's liberation of Iraq. There is no 'neo-conservative' movement in the United States. When there was one, it was made up of former Democrats who embraced the welfare state but supported Ronald Reagan's Cold War policies against the Soviet bloc. Today 'neo-conservatism' identifies those who believe in an aggressive policy against radical Islam and the global terrorists.

The term may have lost meaning due to excessive and inconsistent use. For example, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld have been identified as leading neoconservatives despite the fact that they have been life-long conservative Republicans (though Cheney has supported Irving Kristol's ideas).

Some critics reject the idea that there is a neoconservative movement separate from traditional American conservatism. Traditional conservatives are skeptical of the contemporary usage of the term and dislike being associated with its stereotypes or supposed agendas. Columnist David Harsanyi wrote, "These days, it seems that even temperate support for military action against dictators and terrorists qualifies you a neocon."[39] Jonah Goldberg rejected the label as trite and over-used, arguing "There's nothing 'neo' about me: I was never anything other than conservative."

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #34 on: August 17, 2008, 11:23:29 AM »
Neoconservatism is VERY close to traditional conservativism.

WOW

 ;D
S

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #35 on: August 17, 2008, 11:36:49 AM »
9.5 Trillion Dollars Debt

So Conservative
S

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #36 on: August 17, 2008, 11:37:46 AM »
Oh and our open boarders...

I was mistaken, the Bush administrations main objective must be keeping our Country secure.
S

Eyeball Chambers

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2008, 11:42:44 AM »
The way these fine Christian men in the White House have increased the size of our government.

Conservatives all the way!  8)
S

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2008, 11:47:48 AM »
The way these fine Christian men in the White House have increased the size of our government.

Conservatives all the way!  8)

Oh and our open boarders...

I was mistaken, the Bush administrations main objective must be keeping our Country secure.

9.5 Trillion Dollars Debt

So Conservative

I'm not a fan of any of those policies.  I've been very critical of Bush regarding those, especially immigration and border security.  It's a disgrace.

But none of that should be blamed on "those evil neocons" but on conservatives who let DC politics and personal priorities deviate themselves from the conservative movement.

And what's the link to the thread you quoted me in earlier?

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #39 on: August 17, 2008, 12:12:14 PM »
I don't think I'm wrong at all.  You and your side have been doing it as long as I have seen you on this board.  I think your "studies" don't mean a thing next to your hatred for conservatism and you've already shown that you will say anything to make us look bad, truthfully or not.

Without a link to the thread I can't quote what you said and satisfactorily answer your question.  You can either wait for RP fan to check this since he obviously knows which one it is or you can find it yourself.  The moment I can answer after rereading the original post I'll be more than happy to.
Dealing with the first part only, you just made yourself an ass...  If that's the person I've shown myself to be here, let the people come forth and confirm...  I will listen... I do not think, nor have I had the intention of being what you accuse me of.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #40 on: August 17, 2008, 12:18:44 PM »
I think we should maintain focus on exactly what the neocons are at fault with... The neocons are not some catchall for the left.  There is a specific set of problems they are directly tied to, I have no intention whatsoever of expanding their ills as their ills are problem enough, they don't need wayward additions.  You will not catch me attacking neocons for traditional conservative issues and I challenge anyone to find where I have specifically blamed a neoconservite for a traditional conservative issue.  Good fucking luck.  Brixton is as usuall talking out his ass.

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #41 on: August 17, 2008, 12:40:46 PM »
i'm just too bored right now to debate ya line by line, brix.

no true conservative would have allowed to tha pat act, period.  Just because all violations are classified, doesn't mean they don't exist.

You still think we're "helping" iraq.  All we're doing is helping their new govt to sign a LT oil deal.

Are you from the camp that think the war was about ideals and liberty, and not 50 tril worth of fucking sexy bitch oil?

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #42 on: August 17, 2008, 01:22:16 PM »
i'm just too bored right now to debate ya line by line, brix.

no true conservative would have allowed to tha pat act, period.  Just because all violations are classified, doesn't mean they don't exist.

You still think we're "helping" iraq.  All we're doing is helping their new govt to sign a LT oil deal.

Are you from the camp that think the war was about ideals and liberty, and not 50 tril worth of fucking sexy bitch oil?

That's fine... I have neither the time nor the patience to argue by line anyway.

Yes, I think we have a lot of interest in oil over there, rightfully so IMO.

But even if there wasn't any oil over there we have a responsibility to clean up the mess that we incurred, regardless of who feels the act of incurring it was or wasn't justified.

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #43 on: August 17, 2008, 01:33:06 PM »
Dealing with the first part only, you just made yourself an ass...  If that's the person I've shown myself to be here, let the people come forth and confirm...  I will listen... I do not think, nor have I had the intention of being what you accuse me of.

I think we should maintain focus on exactly what the neocons are at fault with... The neocons are not some catchall for the left.  There is a specific set of problems they are directly tied to, I have no intention whatsoever of expanding their ills as their ills are problem enough, they don't need wayward additions.  You will not catch me attacking neocons for traditional conservative issues and I challenge anyone to find where I have specifically blamed a neoconservite for a traditional conservative issue.  Good fucking luck.  Brixton is as usuall talking out his ass.

You're totally missing the point.

You dislike conservatism as a whole.  It's obvious you're a complete leftist and you throw "neocon" around simply because it makes conservatives look bad.  No one was using "neocon" in recent years until Iraq happened.  Now we have some historically conservative figures who have been corrupted by politics to a big enough extent that libs have recalled some nasty-sounding label.  You're using some bad policies and unfortunate realities of the few to attempt to debase the entire conservative movement and paint traditional conservative principles as part of an "evil neocon empire." 

It's horse shit from another opportunist trying to use trendy lingo, nothing more.  Hell, half the issues people blame on the "neocons" have been committed by the democrats for years (big gov't, big spending, violations of privacy, globalization, etc.)  and I don't see you speaking out against them.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #44 on: August 17, 2008, 01:36:26 PM »
 ::) The only thing that's obvious is that you don't know me... ::)

Brixtonbulldog

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #45 on: August 17, 2008, 01:41:48 PM »
::) The only thing that's obvious is that you don't know me... ::)

Unlike 99% of people on this board I've actually admitted when I was proven wrong.  You're welcome to enlighten me.

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #46 on: August 17, 2008, 01:43:05 PM »
I think you have a problem with irresponsible spending, massive beurocracy, greed, power hungry politicians, and gov't abuse and misinformation in general.  None of that is a staple of ANY form of conservatism.


Both parties are guilty of that. And with a approval rating lower than the same "neocon" president that liberals point their finger at, the arguement of Bush's mishandling of America falls short of the promises Democrats offered in order to gain control of the house.

This has been by far the best "do nothing congress, but spend" (Lou Dobbs) America has EVER seen. Liberals can throw around the 9.5 trilion in debt, but that is beyond dumb since the democraic congress has approved all of that spending, and furthermore has adde to the spending with absurd social work programs, helping people from helping themselves.

Hugo Chavez

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2008, 01:48:55 PM »
Unlike 99% of people on this board I've actually admitted when I was proven wrong.  You're welcome to enlighten me.
WTF???  I have also admitted when I'm wrong and have often stated that I'm ok with being wrong if I am wrong.  I absolutely will not lock into a misconception on team mentality.  I'm dead set against that and have many times made that clear...  What the fuck are you bringing this up for?  Point to the issue?

MB_722

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2008, 01:49:49 PM »
they're one and the same.

Each party plays the good cop/bad cop role. When anything will happen is beyond me. All the republicans and democrats do is pit American against American. What everyone does is label each other while they are all generally the same. They're playing with your minds.

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Re: I don't follow the Russia/Georgia mess much, but...
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2008, 02:17:02 PM »
they're one and the same.

Each party plays the good cop/bad cop role. When anything will happen is beyond me. All the republicans and democrats do is pit American against American. What everyone does is label each other while they are all generally the same. They're playing with your minds.

Keeping people distracted in debate by opposing ideological but unimportant issues allows for business as usual.