Author Topic: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!  (Read 22013 times)

Bodvar

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #200 on: September 12, 2008, 06:21:04 PM »
Bodvar,


Your arguments aren't well reasoned... you dismiss; misconsture and straw-man at every turn...

I can't fault your persistence, but I back up my points with statistics, nothing more. Can you show me where I've used the straw-man logical fallacy?

-you do realise that most European countries that have universal healthcare ALSO have private healthcare right? In Ireland, if you wait too long for an elective surgery the government will send you too a private hospital (if the private hospitals are full then you get sent abroad for surgery all expenses paid).

You do know that your arguing against your own point right? If government care is so superior, why would they have to send people to private hospitals or abroad to get treated?

Did you know that your "Irish miracle" is due to oppressive American taxation? Most of your growth has been due to American companies fleeing the tax system here? If America would wise up and fix its tax system, your little welfare state would be in trouble. Good job on your tax rates though, who would have known that dramatically reducing corporate tax rates would create such an economic boom. Just another thing I admire about the Irish.


-you do realise there is a delineation between socialism and communism right? Universal healthcare is necessary to avoid the societal damage done by the rampant price gouging and coverage denial that is standard business practice for HMOs. It is not a slippery slope to taxpayers buying BMWs for the homeless.

Like communism and socialism, the difference between seizing my paycheck to pay for someone else's health care and seizing it to buy someone else a car or house is a matter of degrees. The concept is the same but it's just a matter of how far your willing to go.

It IS a slippery slope, right now. The top 25% of income earners pay 86% of all Federal income taxes. The top 50% pay 97% and the top 1% pay 39% of all Federal income taxes http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in05tr.xls

This means America is moving towards a system where the producers pay the entire tax burden to take care of the non producers, this is number 2 in the communist manifesto. If you determine that one individual is responsible for the health care of another, why not his mortgage? Why not his car payments? Why not his food bill? Where does it stop?

About the HMO's do you understand the different between denying coverage and denying treatment? Those are two totally different things.

-you do realise that people are routinely denied treatment in the US, right?

Where? Show me one person that was denied treatment of anything. Prove it.

-you know that US hospitals regularly dump non-covered patients, right?

Your statements are worthless without proof. I just don't accept what some guy on the internet says as truth, I need for it to be substantiated. As should you.

I showed you before that American hospitals are having huge problems with illegal aliens using ER's as their private practice. Why would American hospitals treat uninsured illegal immigrants but throw out uninsured citizens? Doesn't add up at all.

-you do know that the only way European homelessness and crime rates can only be considered comparable to those in the US is if you either add Third World Eastern European (non-EU) countries (Hungary; Turkey; Albania etc) to the EU average (homelessness) or use different standards for what constitutes serious crime (rapes; shootings and murder rates are much, much higher in the US), right?

The Luke

Do you honestly think that the EU uses different standards than the US when measuring crime? How do these statistics differ? Why would an international organization compile a list on crime statistics without using controls to correct any disparity between the different collection methods used by each country? Are you saying that Nationmaster.com which is lauded as "a statistician's dream" by the BBC World and "astounding and easy to use" by the New York Times, is run by a bunch of idiots that do not understand basic concepts of gathering statistical data?

This is called denial, your precious UK has a higher crime rate than the United States. I know it's a shock, but it's the truth, you need to learn to deal with this.

Why are you so unwilling to back anything you say up? Do you just think everything is true just because you say it? I've used basic statistics and refuted everything you say but you keep on throwing stuff out here without proof like you haven't lost all credibility. This is like arguing with a child.


George Whorewell

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #201 on: September 12, 2008, 07:11:23 PM »
Bodvar, you must be new here. No liberal who posts on this website can ever back up any argument they make without resolving to fictional statistics and emotional diatribes that are totally irrelevant to the issues. Dont waste your time with them dude. Just make fun of them, make your point and keep it moving. You'll give yourself carpal tunnel trying to reason with these morons.

CigaretteMan

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #202 on: September 12, 2008, 08:40:59 PM »
You should learn to look a little further. In my country I'm cosidered 'right wing'. But I, as do many other people on the right here, recognise the need for a social security net (of which the universal care is a part). How do you think an economy fairs when a significant amount of the population is in debt? What about crime rates when people can't even afford the most basic necessities? All these things will influence your quality of life too. And a lot of them can be minimalised by setting up a social security net.

  It's not my fault that people are economic failures and can't take care of themselves. The talk about universal health care and of the social security net is tempered by the pragmatic reality that ultimately someone needs to pay for it. Like I said, money and resources do not appear ex nihilo. I don't need a social security net: I can take care of myself and this should be the case for every other adult person in the society. Sure, a cripple or someone with Down's Syndrome can't take care of themselves and should receive some sort of support from the state, but I don't see why I should pay hundreds or thousands of dollars a year that will go all to pay for the AIDS medication of some ghetto thug who catched the disease because he never cared to use condoms, or to support the kids he had even though he can't support them because he never cared to use condoms. How is this fair to me? Why should I pay for the mistakes of other people?

CigaretteMan

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #203 on: September 12, 2008, 08:56:36 PM »
Good god man, have you ever been to a country with universal health care? Trust me, rich people are still rich and everyone pays their fuckin taxes (for the most part). The system with universal health care WORKS in so many countries that is is ridiculous to say otherwise. 10.000$ a year for healthcare? hahhaha you must be nuts. If people were forced to pay that kinda taxes for uni healthcare only, there would be riots and swinging of guillotines before you could say the word "bankrupt".

  You just don't get it, do you, no matter how many times I explain this to you? I am going to explain this one last time, and if you don't get it this time then I will just let it go.

  I don't care whether taxes for universal health care are $10,000 or only $100 a year . This is irrelevant. The bottom line is that it's still theft on the part of the government. Why? Because the medical needs of people are assymetrical. That is, if I pay $100 for health care, most of it will be going to people who suffer from chronic diseases like diabetes, AIDS, renal falure, etc. Of those $100 that I pay, I will be using $10 at the most if any, and $90 will be going to pay the medical bills of the chronically ill. The government is stealing from me anyway, plain and simple. The system isbased on abuse in the sense that some people use far more of the medical services than they pay in taxes. Furthermore, even if everyone used exactly what they pay in taxes a year on the public health sevices, it would still be wrong. Why? Because the government would be using my money as it sees fit. I know how to best spend my own money on my own health, thank you very much.

  You communists are the most shameless people in the World. You feel no shame or remorse whatsoever of stealing people from their hard-earned money to fit your political agendas. If you feel so strongly about this, then why don't you sell you own properties and use your own money to pay for the health, education and recreation of all the shiftless people in Society? Why do you want to force us people who support ourselves to pay for things we don't want to? It's so easy to be charitable with other people's money, isn't it?                                                                   

Cardfan

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #204 on: September 12, 2008, 09:03:08 PM »
  You just don't get it, do you, no matter how many times I explain this to you? I am going to explain this one last time, and if you don't get it this time then I will just let it go.

  I don't care whether taxes for universal health care are $10,000 or only $100 a year . This is irrelevant. The bottom line is that it's still theft on the part of the government. Why? Because the medical needs of people are assymetrical. That is, if I pay $100 for health care, most of it will be going to people who suffer from chronic diseases like diabetes, AIDS, renal falure, etc. Of those $100 that I pay, I will be using $10 at the most if any, and $90 will be going to pay the medical bills of the chronically ill. The government is stealing from me anyway, plain and simple. The system isbased on abuse in the sense that some people use far more of the medical services than they pay in taxes. Furthermore, even if everyone used exactly what they pay in taxes a year on the public health sevices, it would still be wrong. Why? Because the government would be using my money as it sees fit. I know how to best spend my own money on my own health, thank you very much.

  You communists are the most shameless people in the World. You feel no shame or remorse whatsoever of stealing people from their hard-earned money to fit your political agendas. If you feel so strongly about this, then why don't you sell you own properties and use your own money to pay for the health, education and recreation of all the shiftless people in Society? Why do you want to force us people who support ourselves to pay for things we don't want to? It's so easy to be charitable with other people's money, isn't it?                                                                   
That's what they don't get. Every supporter of B. H. Obama wants free healthcare. They want free everything. Why should the hardworking among us keep on keepin on? If this Muslim guy is elected....we gonna get it handed to us. Fuck you whitey!

Decker

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #205 on: September 12, 2008, 10:01:41 PM »
  It's not my fault that people are economic failures and can't take care of themselves. The talk about universal health care and of the social security net is tempered by the pragmatic reality that ultimately someone needs to pay for it. Like I said, money and resources do not appear ex nihilo. I don't need a social security net: I can take care of myself and this should be the case for every other adult person in the society. Sure, a cripple or someone with Down's Syndrome can't take care of themselves and should receive some sort of support from the state, but I don't see why I should pay hundreds or thousands of dollars a year that will go all to pay for the AIDS medication of some ghetto thug who catched the disease because he never cared to use condoms, or to support the kids he had even though he can't support them because he never cared to use condoms. How is this fair to me? Why should I pay for the mistakes of other people?
You oversimplify the safetynet society we have to fit your prejudice that the law of the jungle should apply and those failing or not carrying their end of the load are getting their just desserts.

Do you believe all taxation is stealing or just the portion that's allocated to entitlements and social insurance?

Is your economic model of asymmetrical medical needs based on Obama's plan or are you pulling numbers out of the air?

Why do we communists want you to pay your share of taxes for the benefit of the general public as a whole?  You are your brother's keeper.  Fate may single you out for a need based governmental benefit someday.  And it's in society's interest to not have abject poverty rampant in our country.

It's easy to cry that all your money is yours b/c you earned it.  That's superficial selfishness.  Mine mine mine.  You've achieved nothing on your own.  If not for those that came before you and our federal government, you wouldn't even have the money in your pocket.  The gov. that mints your money, that protects  your proprietary interests, that protects your borders--your person--your personal property, that sponsors R&D so that you have an Internet, that maintains your highways, libraries, parks, that insures your bank accounts, that provides loans for your education (the list can go on for pages, but you get the idea)--that government is the fucked up mechanism emblematic of our social contract.

You are not an island.


SquatAss

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #206 on: September 13, 2008, 02:05:49 AM »
As far as the crime rate, New Zealand, Finland, Chile, and the United Kingdom all have a higher crime rate than the United States http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_percap-crime-total-crimes-per-capita

Crime is a very wide concept. Speeding is a crime.

Murder rate: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders_percap

5 USA
14 UK
19 Germany
53 Netherlands
66 Denmark

Assault: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita

6 USA
8 UK
18 Netherlands
24 Denmark
26 Germany

Paints quite a different picture doesn't it? Please don't try to bend statistics in your favor.




Benny B

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #207 on: September 13, 2008, 04:55:34 AM »
That's what they don't get. Every supporter of B. H. Obama wants free healthcare. They want free everything. Why should the hardworking among us keep on keepin on? If this Muslim #### is elected....we gonna get it handed to us. Fuck you whitey!
LOL at the racist buffoon.  :D
!

Michaeloz

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #208 on: September 13, 2008, 04:57:43 AM »
  You just don't get it, do you, no matter how many times I explain this to you? I am going to explain this one last time, and if you don't get it this time then I will just let it go.

  I don't care whether taxes for universal health care are $10,000 or only $100 a year . This is irrelevant. The bottom line is that it's still theft on the part of the government. Why? Because the medical needs of people are assymetrical. That is, if I pay $100 for health care, most of it will be going to people who suffer from chronic diseases like diabetes, AIDS, renal falure, etc. Of those $100 that I pay, I will be using $10 at the most if any, and $90 will be going to pay the medical bills of the chronically ill. The government is stealing from me anyway, plain and simple. The system isbased on abuse in the sense that some people use far more of the medical services than they pay in taxes. Furthermore, even if everyone used exactly what they pay in taxes a year on the public health sevices, it would still be wrong. Why? Because the government would be using my money as it sees fit. I know how to best spend my own money on my own health, thank you very much.

  You communists are the most shameless people in the World. You feel no shame or remorse whatsoever of stealing people from their hard-earned money to fit your political agendas. If you feel so strongly about this, then why don't you sell you own properties and use your own money to pay for the health, education and recreation of all the shiftless people in Society? Why do you want to force us people who support ourselves to pay for things we don't want to? It's so easy to be charitable with other people's money, isn't it?                                                                   
Dude you are way out of touch with your thoughts on universal healthcare. Yo just can;t seem to grasp that it works fine in other countries.
You have no idea about communists countries and their running if you feel they steal from their own people.
Amother out of touch Americain.

The Luke

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #209 on: September 13, 2008, 06:46:55 AM »
It IS a slippery slope, right now. The top 25% of income earners pay 86% of all Federal income taxes. The top 50% pay 97% and the top 1% pay 39% of all Federal income taxes http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/05in05tr.xls

This means America is moving towards a system where the producers pay the entire tax burden to take care of the non producers, this is number 2 in the communist manifesto. If you determine that one individual is responsible for the health care of another, why not his mortgage? Why not his car payments? Why not his food bill? Where does it stop?

I'd like to tackle this because only the innumerate fall for this type of statistic...

As it stands now in the US the top 1% of wealthiest people pay 39% of all federal income taxes... this is true. But it doesn't mean what you guys think it means.

The bottom 150 million earners pay only 3% of the federal income tax, but the top 1% earn more than the bottom 150 million combined. There is a chronic wealth disparity.

Federal income taxes are one thing... but what about total tax burden?

The top 1% don't consume enough to pay their fair share of sales tax, property tax, food taxes etc.

Here's a simple minded example: the (sales) tax on cornflakes.
There are only about 500,000 super rich (top 1% earners), but they earn as much as the bottom 150 million. The bottom 150 million eat 150 million bowls of cornflakes each day, the top 1% eat only eat 500,000 bowls of corn flakes... so the cornflake tax is hitting the poor disproportionately hard: they are carrying 99.67% of the cornflake tax for that 51% of the population (top 1% and bottom 50%).

The bottom half of the population pays half of the cornflake tax... but doesn't earn half the income.

Similarly, the poor are carrying the vast bulk of the tax burden for food, clothes, gasoline, cars, childcare, medical costs, consumables... the poor are in effect paying the vast bulk of the tax on lifes necessities.

The rich are paying the vast bulk of the tax burden for social programs (funded by federal taxes)... but the social programs are shitty and underfunded, and proportionately to total income the rich are getting a very good deal.

The top 1% might be paying 39% of federal taxes... but they don't earn 13 times what the bottom 150 million earn (who pay 3% of the federal taxes), they earn 300 times what the poor earn on average and should be paying considerably more.

The wealth disparity is so great that the top 1% shouldn't be paying 39% of federal income tax, they should be paying 50% to 60%.

Don't just use the gist of what the figures SEEM to say... do a little math.


The Luke

Bodvar

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #210 on: September 13, 2008, 08:14:24 AM »
Crime is a very wide concept. Speeding is a crime.

Murder rate: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders_percap

5 USA
14 UK
19 Germany
53 Netherlands
66 Denmark

Assault: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_percap-crime-assaults-per-capita

6 USA
8 UK
18 Netherlands
24 Denmark
26 Germany


Paints quite a different picture doesn't it? Please don't try to bend statistics in your favor.





Speeding is a misdemeanor, what do you think they use jaywalking in there too?

What you did is BLATANTLY dishonest (or just stupid I'm not sure which yet). You used TOTAL amount of murders, which ranked the US as number 5 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders_percap NOT the murder rate. Murder rate is murders per capita, where the US ranks as number 24 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Do you understand the difference between total murders and murders per capita? You have to divide the numbers of murders by the population to get the murder rate of the country. Just look at India, when you look at total murders, India is number 1 with 37,170 murders which is more than twice the amount you find in the US. BUT when you divide the number of homicide victims by India's 1.1 billion population, then you get a homicide rate of 0.033 per 1,000 which ranks India as #26. Do you see the difference here?


Here are few more statistics you may find interesting

Burglaries: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_bur_percap-crime-burglaries-per-capita

1 Australia
3 Denmark
7 United Kingdom
12 Iceland
17 United States


Rapes: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

1 South Africa
3 Australia
5 Canada
9 United States
10 Iceland


Robberies: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rob_percap-crime-robberies-per-capita

1 Spain
7 Portugal
8 United Kingdom
11 United States

Drug Offenses: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_dru_off-crime-drug-offences

1 Germany
2 United Kingdom
3 Canada
17 Netherlands
34 Denmark
41 United States

Car Thefts: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_car_the_percap-crime-car-thefts-per-capita

1 Australia
3 United Kingdom
7 Canada
9 United States

Embezzlement's: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_emb_percap-crime-embezzlements-per-capita

1 Czech Republic
4 Norway
12 Switzerland
20 Denmark
30 United States

Frauds: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_fra_percap-crime-frauds-per-capita

1 Germany
2 United Kingdom
9 Canada
11 France
18 United States

This confirms what I said, America does not have the highest crime rate in the world.

Paints a completely different picture doesn't it? Please stop trying to bend statistics in your favor.

 

The Luke

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #211 on: September 13, 2008, 08:37:31 AM »
Bodvar,

Got the table for murders per capita?

I seriously doubt there are any developed countries ahead of the US.



The Luke

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #212 on: September 13, 2008, 08:43:47 AM »
Dude you are way out of touch with your thoughts on universal healthcare. Yo just can;t seem to grasp that it works fine in other countries.
You have no idea about communists countries and their running if you feel they steal from their own people.
Amother out of touch Americain.


It works fine...where is it working fine...in Canada where people wait months for normal procedures...or maybe England where they made manditory minium wait times in ER's...except to get around that they make patients wait in the meat wagon so the time doesn't start. Plus we're 350 million or more people...and I'm not paying for some assholes medical bills. Work hard, get a job, buy insurance.
L

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #213 on: September 13, 2008, 08:56:34 AM »

It works fine...where is it working fine...in Canada where people wait months for normal procedures...or maybe England where they made manditory minium wait times in ER's...except to get around that they make patients wait in the meat wagon so the time doesn't start. Plus we're 350 million or more people...and I'm not paying for some assholes medical bills. Work hard, get a job, buy insurance.

 ???

I've been to an ER in England.  Walked straight in even though it was a trivial problem and I was a foreigner without ID.

Health care and education should be basic rights in a civilized nation.  They should quit wasting your money elsewhere and provide for the needs of the citizenry. 

Bodvar

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #214 on: September 13, 2008, 09:37:49 AM »
I'd like to tackle this because only the innumerate fall for this type of statistic...

You such an elitist pompous ass, do you know that?


As it stands now in the US the top 1% of wealthiest people pay 39% of all federal income taxes... this is true. But it doesn't mean what you guys think it means.

The bottom 150 million earners pay only 3% of the federal income tax, but the top 1% earn more than the bottom 150 million combined. There is a chronic wealth disparity.

I'm sorry a chronic wealth disparity? Should everyone have equal wages? If you look at those number again the top 1% pay a much higher percentage of their earnings than the bottom 50% do. The bottom 50% pay nothing, what's the problem here? Something else, notice that when the evil George W. Bush who hates the poor and black people took office, the top 1% went from having 33.89% of the Federal income tax burden to 39.38%. Wow, he's really looking out for his rich buddies huh?

FYI, we have an ACHIEVEMENT disparity, not a wealth disparity. If you are willing to work your ass off in this country you will never have a problem with money. People that are poor generally are that way because of the choices they make, likewise for the rich. The best thing we can do is get rid of this "woe is me" attitude we have here and get people off their asses and help them support themselves. Not throw more government money at them. It's like they say, give a man a fish he'll eat for a day, teach him to fish he'll eat for a lifetime. Lefties generally whine that we're not giving people enough fish.

Federal income taxes are one thing... but what about total tax burden?

The top 1% don't consume enough to pay their fair share of sales tax, property tax, food taxes etc.

Are you crazy? How high are property taxes on a mansion on high dollar real estate compared to a dumpy trailer in a trailer park? How much more do you pay in sales tax on a Bentley compared to a used Honda (hint, it's about 100 times as much)? How much sales tax do they rich pay on yachts (hint, about what the average person makes in 20 years)? The rich pay a large portion of the sales, property tax, ect. Plus what the hell is a food tax? There's a sales tax but there is no food tax on top of that.

Do you know how much more stuff the rich buy than the poor? How many people are employed because some rich guy wants to buy a yacht?

Here's a simple minded example: the (sales) tax on cornflakes.
There are only about 500,000 super rich (top 1% earners), but they earn as much as the bottom 150 million. The bottom 150 million eat 150 million bowls of cornflakes each day, the top 1% eat only eat 500,000 bowls of corn flakes... so the cornflake tax is hitting the poor disproportionately hard: they are carrying 99.67% of the cornflake tax for that 51% of the population (top 1% and bottom 50%).

The bottom half of the population pays half of the cornflake tax... but doesn't earn half the income.

First of all, rich people don't eat cornflakes :) They hire their personal chefs to cook them up some ridiculously expensive gourmet 5 course breakfast meal, but regardless.

Ok let's do a little math! 150,500,000 bowls of cereal a day, and lets say there are about 10 bowls per box, so that is 15,050,000 boxes, with a box of corn flakes being about 4 dollars which equals 60.2 million dollars times the sales tax (0.06) = $3,612,000 per day in corn flake tax. Now lets look at the most expensive Yacht in the world, which sells for about $103 million, so if that guy were to sell it he would have to pay $6,180,000 in sales tax. That means one guy buying one boat will pay 1.7 times in sales tax than 155.5 million people pay for eating cornflakes in one day.

Do you have any idea how many yachts and luxury cars and big screen TV's and other ridiculously expensive items are being purchased every day by rich people? There are over 1 million millionaires in this country, that's a LOT of expensive shit being purchased. Your argument about the rich not paying their fair share of property and sales tax doesn't wash.

Similarly, the poor are carrying the vast bulk of the tax burden for food, clothes, gasoline, cars, childcare, medical costs, consumables... the poor are in effect paying the vast bulk of the tax on lifes necessities.

If the poor have money to buy all those things in that sort of magnitude are they really that poor?

This is basic logic, I'm sure you agree that rich people hold onto most of the wealth in this country. If they hold onto the most wealth they must also spend the most, and if they spend the most then they must pay the most sales tax right?

Let me use some statistics from a left wing website against you. According to The Nation http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060529/friedman, the bottom 50 percent of earners only have 3 percent of the total wealth in America. How could people that hold that little wealth pay the majority of sales taxes? These two points are mutually exclusive, you either pay the vast bulk of sales taxes OR you only control 3 percent of the wealth. It cannot be both.

The rich are paying the vast bulk of the tax burden for social programs (funded by federal taxes)... but the social programs are shitty and underfunded, and proportionately to total income the rich are getting a very good deal.

Huh? Your saying the rich are getting a good deal because the 39% tax burden they are paying is going to programs that are shitty and underfunded? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. How is paying a huge portion of your income into a shitty program you never use a "good deal"?

The top 1% might be paying 39% of federal taxes... but they don't earn 13 times what the bottom 150 million earn (who pay 3% of the federal taxes), they earn 300 times what the poor earn on average and should be paying considerably more.

Your not very good with numbers are you? According the IRS, the top 1% earn an average of about 370,000 dollars, the poor have an average income of about 17,000. That means that the top percent earn about 22 times as much as the poor, not 300 times.

Actually tax information is misleading because it doesn't include tax credits like the Earned Income Credit, which pays about 3000 dollars on average just for having kids. So people making less than 30,000 are getting all their state and federal taxes back AND getting 3000+ dollars just for having a child! So the poor not only don't pay any taxes but they get free money from the government at the expense of the top earners. Poor people have a negative tax burden.

The wealth disparity is so great that the top 1% shouldn't be paying 39% of federal income tax, they should be paying 50% to 60%.

I go back to that The Nation article, it states that the top 1% control 30% of the wealth and but have 39% of the tax burden, that means the rich are paying MORE than their "fair share". It also states that the bottom 50 percent control 3% of the wealth and have 3% of the burden. Seems like things are exactly as you would like them to be! Oh, and like I said before, if you add EIC and other tax "credits" that 3% disappears and becomes a negative number. Seems like America is already the socialist paradise you want it to be!

Don't just use the gist of what the figures SEEM to say... do a little math.


The Luke

I did, now lets see your math :)

Bodvar

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #215 on: September 13, 2008, 09:48:07 AM »
Bodvar,

Got the table for murders per capita?

I seriously doubt there are any developed countries ahead of the US.



The Luke

Yeah I posted it earlier http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
#1     Colombia:   0.617847 per 1,000 people    
#2     South Africa:   0.496008 per 1,000 people    
#3     Jamaica:   0.324196 per 1,000 people    
#4     Venezuela:   0.316138 per 1,000 people    
#5     Russia:   0.201534 per 1,000 people    
#6     Mexico:   0.130213 per 1,000 people    
#7     Estonia:   0.107277 per 1,000 people    
#8     Latvia:   0.10393 per 1,000 people    
#9     Lithuania:   0.102863 per 1,000 people    
#10     Belarus:   0.0983495 per 1,000 people    
#11     Ukraine:   0.094006 per 1,000 people    
#12     Papua New Guinea:   0.0838593 per 1,000 people    
#13     Kyrgyzstan:   0.0802565 per 1,000 people    
#14     Thailand:   0.0800798 per 1,000 people    
#15     Moldova:   0.0781145 per 1,000 people    
#16     Zimbabwe:   0.0749938 per 1,000 people    
#17     Seychelles:   0.0739025 per 1,000 people    
#18     Zambia:   0.070769 per 1,000 people    
#19     Costa Rica:   0.061006 per 1,000 people    
#20     Poland:   0.0562789 per 1,000 people    
#21     Georgia:   0.0511011 per 1,000 people    
#22     Uruguay:   0.045082 per 1,000 people    
#23     Bulgaria:   0.0445638 per 1,000 people    
#24     United States:   0.042802 per 1,000 people    
#25     Armenia:   0.0425746 per 1,000 people    
#26     India:   0.0344083 per 1,000 people    
#27     Yemen:   0.0336276 per 1,000 people    
#28     Dominica:   0.0289733 per 1,000 people    
#29     Azerbaijan:   0.0285642 per 1,000 people    
#30     Finland:   0.0283362 per 1,000 people    

Columbia, Venezuela, Russia, Estonia, South Africa, and Poland are considered developed countries, as are most of the others on that list.

Look I'm not saying America doesn't have a homicide problem, just that it isn't the worst in the world like you said.

Considering the amount of guns that are available in the United States, it isn't as bad as one would think. Another thing you must consider is that African Americans are about 12% of the population but commit over 50% of the homicides http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm If it wasn't for that unfortunate fact, the American murder rate would be cut in half. Same thing with the crime rate in general, factor out black people and the crime rate and incarceration rates fall by 50%. Not racist just fact.

The Luke

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #216 on: September 13, 2008, 10:26:07 AM »
Yeah I posted it earlier http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
#1     Colombia:   0.617847 per 1,000 people    
#2     South Africa:   0.496008 per 1,000 people    
#3     Jamaica:   0.324196 per 1,000 people    
#4     Venezuela:   0.316138 per 1,000 people    
#5     Russia:   0.201534 per 1,000 people    
#6     Mexico:   0.130213 per 1,000 people    
#7     Estonia:   0.107277 per 1,000 people    
#8     Latvia:   0.10393 per 1,000 people    
#9     Lithuania:   0.102863 per 1,000 people    
#10     Belarus:   0.0983495 per 1,000 people    
#11     Ukraine:   0.094006 per 1,000 people    
#12     Papua New Guinea:   0.0838593 per 1,000 people    
#13     Kyrgyzstan:   0.0802565 per 1,000 people    
#14     Thailand:   0.0800798 per 1,000 people    
#15     Moldova:   0.0781145 per 1,000 people    
#16     Zimbabwe:   0.0749938 per 1,000 people    
#17     Seychelles:   0.0739025 per 1,000 people    
#18     Zambia:   0.070769 per 1,000 people    
#19     Costa Rica:   0.061006 per 1,000 people    
#20     Poland:   0.0562789 per 1,000 people    
#21     Georgia:   0.0511011 per 1,000 people    
#22     Uruguay:   0.045082 per 1,000 people    
#23     Bulgaria:   0.0445638 per 1,000 people    
#24     United States:   0.042802 per 1,000 people    
#25     Armenia:   0.0425746 per 1,000 people    
#26     India:   0.0344083 per 1,000 people    
#27     Yemen:   0.0336276 per 1,000 people    
#28     Dominica:   0.0289733 per 1,000 people    
#29     Azerbaijan:   0.0285642 per 1,000 people    
#30     Finland:   0.0283362 per 1,000 people    

Columbia, Venezuela, Russia, Estonia, South Africa, and Poland are considered developed countries, as are most of the others on that list.

Look I'm not saying America doesn't have a homicide problem, just that it isn't the worst in the world like you said.

Considering the amount of guns that are available in the United States, it isn't as bad as one would think. Another thing you must consider is that African Americans are about 12% of the population but commit over 50% of the homicides http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm If it wasn't for that unfortunate fact, the American murder rate would be cut in half. Same thing with the crime rate in general, factor out black people and the crime rate and incarceration rates fall by 50%. Not racist just fact.

Columbia: ...Fark, smoldering civil war and ransom kidnappings
Venezuela: ...economic collapse, major drug trade
Russia: ...economic collapse, hyperinflation, dictator
Estonia: ...former communist state that was Soviet funded, now impoverished
South Africa: ...regularly either the murder or rape capital of the world, impoverished
Poland: ...former communist state that was Soviet funded, now impoverished and corrupt

Seriously dude, none of these are considered First World countries (not anymore anyway).

This is what I meant by your arguments being weak... just LOOK at the company America is keeping on that list! Sandwiched between Bulgaria and Armenia... come on dude.


You make claims about black communities... look at the poverty rates among American blacks, it's not a racial thing. A lot of the countries on that list (former Soviet block) are homogeneously white.

You hymn and haw about my statistics being faulty because you find one differing report, but when you delve a little deeper and the trends agree with my contentions you start making excuses... Come on, do a little more research... all you are proving is that you aren't really up to speed on the reality of the situation, and shouldn't have been branding the better informed liars in the first place.

When are you "Fuck-the-Poor!" Republicans going to get a little enlightenment... it's cheaper long run for society as a whole to give homeless man a house, a car, a money manager and a million dollars than it is to deny him any kind of help at all?


The Luke

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #217 on: September 13, 2008, 10:41:55 AM »
[...]People that are poor generally are that way because of the choices they make, likewise for the rich.[...]

You are basically saying that people who are poor are so because of personal choice. So... someone who lives in a box does so because he wants to.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


SquatAss

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #218 on: September 13, 2008, 10:59:01 AM »
Speeding is a misdemeanor, what do you think they use jaywalking in there too?

Point is we don't know what is used for these statistics.

Quote from: Bodvar
What you did is BLATANTLY dishonest (or just stupid I'm not sure which yet). You used TOTAL amount of murders, which ranked the US as number 5 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders_percap NOT the murder rate. Murder rate is murders per capita, where the US ranks as number 24 http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

An honest mistake: the link even says murder per capita: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders_percap

With Germany and the Netherlands at 49 and 51 respectively and the US at 24 it is still a very significant difference.

Bodvar

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #219 on: September 13, 2008, 11:12:34 AM »
Columbia: ...Fark, smoldering civil war and ransom kidnappings
Venezuela: ...economic collapse, major drug trade
Russia: ...economic collapse, hyperinflation, dictator
Estonia: ...former communist state that was Soviet funded, now impoverished
South Africa: ...regularly either the murder or rape capital of the world, impoverished
Poland: ...former communist state that was Soviet funded, now impoverished and corrupt

Seriously dude, none of these are considered First World countries (not anymore anyway).

Nope wrong, Estonia is considered a first world country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_World

But if you read what I posted you'd notice that I stated that: America does have a homicide problem, but it isn't the murder capital in the world like you said. That's all.


This is what I meant by your arguments being weak... just LOOK at the company America is keeping on that list! Sandwiched between Bulgaria and Armenia... come on dude.

My argument was never that American didn't have a problem. I was just refuting your statement where you claimed America has the highest murder rate in the world. In which case I am correct and you are wrong.


You make claims about black communities... look at the poverty rates among American blacks, it's not a racial thing. A lot of the countries on that list (former Soviet block) are homogeneously white.

Why don't you show me where your get your statistics from? I'm getting tired of researching every single unfounded point you make, I feel like I writing a term paper, yet your not looking up a thing.

Look: http://www.prb.org/Articles/2007/USRacialEthnicAndRegionalPoverty.aspx
As of 2006, 20% of African Americans live in poverty versus 8 percent of whites. That is a quotient of 2.5

White people make up 76% of the population, blacks make up 12% http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_demographics_of_the_United_States

Now look at homicide statistic for the races: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm
According to this site: "In 2005, homicide victimization rates for blacks were 6 times higher than the rates for whites."

That means that black people are 2.5 more like to be poor than whites but they are 6 TIMES more like to commit murders. Not a racial thing my ass.

You hymn and haw about my statistics being faulty because you find one differing report, but when you delve a little deeper and the trends agree with my contentions you start making excuses... Come on, do a little more research... all you are proving is that you aren't really up to speed on the reality of the situation, and shouldn't have been branding the better informed liars in the first place.

Well here's the thing YOU DON'T PROVIDE ANY SOURCES WHATSOEVER. I'd love to compare my sources (which are airtight) to yours, but you don't provide yours. I have no idea where you get your information. Why don't you enlighten me about these amazing sources of yours so we can make a comparison? What are you afraid of?

When are you "Fuck-the-Poor!" Republicans going to get a little enlightenment... it's cheaper long run for society as a whole to give homeless man a house, a car, a money manager and a million dollars than it is to deny him any kind of help at all?

The Luke

That is so naive it's ridiculous. Nobody is talking about denying homeless people help, nobody. We just differ on how he should be helped. Right wingers want to institute a policy of tough love, encourage the man to take care of himself. Lefties like yourself would rather keep him dependent on government his whole life.

You really think giving homeless people all that shit will be less expensive. Hm let's see, a million dollars plus a house and a car would be about 1.25 million dollars. Multiply that by the estimated 3 million homeless people and you get 3.75 trillion dollars, larger number than the entire Federal budget. Keep in mind that a good portion of homeless people are mentally insane and alcohol or drug addicts, not exactly the most financially responsible people out there.

I'd like to know how you came to this conclusion? Why do you think taking 3750 billion dollars away from productive citizens and give them to unproductive citizens would help anybody?


Look The Luke, I keep responding to your statements with well reasoned, logical, and well sourced arguments. All you do is say "well your just dumb" and then go on another tirade of unsubstantiated left wing propaganda. You find my tendency to look up information irritating for some reason, and you criticize my information without provide any information to the contrary. Unless you start backing up what your saying you've pretty much admitted defeat in this little debate.

My hunch is that your sources are so blatantly biased and flawed that you wouldn't dare post them up here because you know that you'd be laughed right out of here.


Bodvar

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #220 on: September 13, 2008, 11:14:59 AM »
You are basically saying that people who are poor are so because of personal choice. So... someone who lives in a box does so because he wants to.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D



God your stupid. Nobody chooses to be a drug addict but because of the day to day choices they make they end up that way. Same thing for poor people, nobody wants to be poor but since they make bad choices in their lives they end up that way.

Butterbean

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #221 on: September 13, 2008, 11:15:15 AM »
Any branch of science: geology, astronomy, biology.... take your pick.
OK I'll pick them all.  Can you please give me a short explanation addressing each as to why you reject that life could be less than 10,000 years old? 
R

Bodvar

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #222 on: September 13, 2008, 11:16:26 AM »
Point is we don't know what is used for these statistics.
Yes we do

An honest mistake: the link even says murder per capita: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur-crime-murders_percap

With Germany and the Netherlands at 49 and 51 respectively and the US at 24 it is still a very significant difference.

That still doesn't make it the murder capital of the world, which is what The Luke was claiming. I never said America doesn't have a homicide problem, that would be a retarded statement.

The Luke

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #223 on: September 13, 2008, 11:18:21 AM »
I go back to that The Nation article, it states that the top 1% control 30% of the wealth and but have 39% of the tax burden, that means the rich are paying MORE than their "fair share". It also states that the bottom 50 percent control 3% of the wealth and have 3% of the burden. Seems like things are exactly as you would like them to be! Oh, and like I said before, if you add EIC and other tax "credits" that 3% disappears and becomes a negative number. Seems like America is already the socialist paradise you want it to be!

I did, now lets see your math :)

...this shows you missed my point, but at least I can now understand where the misunderstanding comes from.

Take these two groups, the top 1% of American earners and the bottom 50% of Americans:

Both groups earn the same amount:
-top 1% pay 39% of total federal taxes
-bottom 50% pay only 3% of total federal taxes
   ...seems pretty unfair doesn't it?

But consider that there are only about 500,000 people in the top 1% bracket, there are 150 million in the bottom 50% bracket (the poor)... So this means:
-the poor pay 300 times the food tax the super rich pay (that's 29,900% more)
-the poor pay 200 times more of the total cost/burden of healthcare (that's assuming ALL the uninsured fall into this category) that's 19,900% more
-the poor pay 30 times as much of total car tax (assuming the average rich dude's car is 10 times more expensive) that's 2,900% more
-the poor pay three times more sales tax (assuming the average rich dude buys 100 times more "stuff") that's 200% more

Factor in that the poor must suffer:
-100% of the worst neighbourhoods
-100% of the violent crime
-100% of street crime
-the worst services
-33% non-coverage for healthcare
-the worst literacy
-100% of the worst schools

...the super rich are kinda getting off easy really aren't they?

Who is paying the bulk of the increase in gas prices...? Do rich people drive millions of miles per year?

Which group is getting fucked over?


Use a little common sense Bodvar... there's no point in manipulating or selectively sampling statistics when the other side can actually deduce the implications... think through your argument.


The Luke
PS- I said America had the highest murder rate in the developed world, not "the world".

Michaeloz

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Re: JASON BOURNE Speaks the TRUTH on Sarah Palin!
« Reply #224 on: September 13, 2008, 03:22:46 PM »

It works fine...where is it working fine...in Canada where people wait months for normal procedures...or maybe England where they made manditory minium wait times in ER's...except to get around that they make patients wait in the meat wagon so the time doesn't start. Plus we're 350 million or more people...and I'm not paying for some assholes medical bills. Work hard, get a job, buy insurance.
Thgankyou, you are an uneducated redneck who as no idea how this health system works, and obviousley have never lived in a country with the benifits of this health sysstem.

Continue to be lost in tour ignorance.
You are no more than a 1 eyed republican, who can't see the truth