Question for 240 regarding Obama.

[Straw Man]

I'll create a separate thread about this, but you're pretty much calling Obama a liar.  He has talked very openly about his faith and no secret that he is a "true believer."  (Not his quote.) 

I know a plethora of highly intelligent people who believe in God and are devout Christians.  Loco can chime in here if he happens to read this, but he has covered this pretty extensively on the religion board.  I think McWay has too.   

You don't know that Obama is a "true believer" in the same way that you define it for yourself.

Isn't he pro-choice?  How does that fit it with your definition of a "true believer"?

[Dos Equis]

lol

you don't think there have been any atheist leaders before 

I bet plenty of people trust atheists and don't know it.

Avowed atheists?  No.  Can you name one?  Of course a person can lie about their faith, but that will be the only way an atheist is elected president IMO.  

I have atheist friends and I trust them, although I wouldn't vote for them for president.    I'm talking about the majority of Americans (if the polls are accurate).  

[Dos Equis]

Bum,

would you trust a doctor to perform surgery on yourself or one of your children if knew he/she was an atheist but also the absolute best doctor that you could find?

Of course.  I have never asked my doctor about his or her religious faith.  But nice try.   

[Straw Man]

Of course.  I have never asked my doctor about his or her religious faith.  But nice try.   

If faith doesn't matter with someone who literally has your life or the life of your child in their hands then why would it matter for any other job?

[Dos Equis]

You don't know that Obama is a "true believer" in the same way that you define it for yourself.

Isn't he pro-choice?  How does that fit it with your definition of a "true believer"?

Go back and read what I said.  He describes himself as a devout Christian.

Why the heck are you asking me so many ridiculous questions?  (That's actually a rhetorical question.)  Quit trying to find contradictions and quit trying to change the focus to me.    

[Dos Equis]

If faith doesn't matter with someone who literally has your life or the life of your child in their hands then why would it matter for any other job?

Who said faith doesn't matter?  You asked a specific question about a surgeon.  Like I said, I would never ask a surgeon about his religious beliefs.   

[Straw Man]

Who said faith doesn't matter?  You asked a specific question about a surgeon.  Like I said, I would never ask a surgeon about his religious beliefs.   

Bum, can you for once avoid the game playing.   If faith or religious belief or whatever else you want to call it does not matter for a surgeon who literally holds your life in their hands then why does it matter in a politician?

[The Luke]

I'll create a separate thread about this, but you're pretty much calling Obama a liar.  He has talked very openly about his faith and no secret that he is a "true believer."  (Not his quote.) 

I know a plethora of highly intelligent people who believe in God and are devout Christians.  Loco can chime in here if he happens to read this, but he has covered this pretty extensively on the religion board.  I think McWay has too.   

...no you don't.

As I said, even Jesus would be an atheist if he were alive today... Jesus predicted the end of the world within the first century, so by this stage he'd be pretty sure there is no god. Especially after space exploration has shown that there is neither a sea (as Genesis claims and the ancients believed) nor a heaven in outer space, and that's nothing in comparison to the strides in medical science (no possessing spirits that must be cast out etc)... and biology (the microbe theory of disease etc).

Obama isn't a liar for professing a belief in god... not any more than I am a liar when I profess my belief in Santa Claus in discussion with my seven year old niece.


The Luke  

[lovemonkey]

...no you don't.

As I said, even Jesus would be an atheist if he were alive today... Jesus predicted the end of the world within the first century, so by this stage he'd be pretty sure there is no god. Especially after space exploration has shown that there is neither a sea (as Genesis claims and the ancients believed) nor a heaven in outer space, and that's nothing in comparison to the strides in medical science (no possessing spirits that must be cast out etc)... and biology (the microbe theory of disease etc).

Obama isn't a liar for professing a belief in god... not any more than I am a liar when I profess my belief in Santa Claus in discussion with my seven year old niece.


The Luke  

Ta ta, boooooooom.

[Straw Man]

...no you don't.

As I said, even Jesus would be an atheist if he were alive today... Jesus predicted the end of the world within the first century, so by this stage he'd be pretty sure there is no god. Especially after space exploration has shown that there is neither a sea (as Genesis claims and the ancients believed) nor a heaven in outer space, and that's nothing in comparison to the strides in medical science (no possessing spirits that must be cast out etc)... and biology (the microbe theory of disease etc).

Obama isn't a liar for professing a belief in god... not any more than I am a liar when I profess my belief in Santa Claus in discussion with my seven year old niece.


The Luke  

good analogy - most fundie types have a very simplistic and child-like view of the world

[Dos Equis]

Bum, can you for once avoid the game playing.   If faith or religious belief or whatever else you want to call it does not matter for a surgeon who literally holds your life in their hands then why does it matter in a politician?

I believe God uses people of all walks, faiths, no faith, etc., including surgeons.  If for some reason my child needed surgery, I'm sure God could use an "atheist" surgeon, and I would certainly pray about it, along with a number of people.  

I view the president in a different light, because he or she makes day-to-day decisions that could affect millions of people, if not the entire country.  They are public figures and not involved in a purely private choice (unlike a surgeon).  Not the same in my book.  I would not feel comfortable voting for an atheist.  And again, what does any of this have to do with Obama?  Or whether an atheist can be elected president?  Or whether the majority of Americans trust atheists?    

[Dos Equis]

...no you don't.

As I said, even Jesus would be an atheist if he were alive today... Jesus predicted the end of the world within the first century, so by this stage he'd be pretty sure there is no god. Especially after space exploration has shown that there is neither a sea (as Genesis claims and the ancients believed) nor a heaven in outer space, and that's nothing in comparison to the strides in medical science (no possessing spirits that must be cast out etc)... and biology (the microbe theory of disease etc).

Obama isn't a liar for professing a belief in god... not any more than I am a liar when I profess my belief in Santa Claus in discussion with my seven year old niece.


The Luke  

lol . . . So all of the professionals I know, many with advanced degrees, are stupid? 

Obama didn't just profess a belief in God.  He called himself a practicing Christian. 

[Straw Man]

I believe God uses people of all walks, faiths, no faith, etc., including surgeons.  If for some reason my child needed surgery, I'm sure God could use an "atheist" surgeon, and I would certainly pray about it, along with a number of people.  

I view the president in a different light, because he or she makes day-to-day decisions that could affect millions of people, if not the entire country.  They are public figures and not involved in a purely private choice (unlike a surgeon).  Not the same in my book.  I would not feel comfortable voting an atheist.  And again, what does any of this have to do with Obama?  Or whether an atheist can be elected president?  Or whether the majority of Americans trust atheists?    

I didn't say it had anything to do with Obama.  I posed the question so I could better understand your thought process.   A surgeon holds a single life in his hands and a president holds millions and millions.  I don't think volume makes one bit of difference.  In fact, I'd prefer to have an atheist that doesn't rely on faith or belief in a higher spirit to make a crucial decision.   George Bush is a man of faith (allegedly) and his God has allowed him to fuck up pretty much everything he does.  

[Straw Man]

Go back and read what I said.  He describes himself as a devout Christian.

Why the heck are you asking me so many ridiculous questions?  (That's actually a rhetorical question.)  Quit trying to find contradictions and quit trying to change the focus to me.    

Questions are also called dialogue.

Stop being so full of yourself.   A question directed to you is not changing the focus to you

You claim that Obama is a true believer but in the past you've suggested that anyone who doesn't share your specific beliefs (say about abortion or gay marriage) isn't really a christian.

[Butterbean]

Jesus predicted the end of the world within the first century,

The Luke, could you please give a scripture reference for this?

[Dos Equis]

Questions are also called dialogue.

Stop being so full of yourself.   A question directed to you is not changing the focus to you

You claim that Obama is a true believer but in the past you've suggested that anyone who doesn't share your specific beliefs (say about abortion or gay marriage) isn't really a christian.

I have never said anyone who doesn't share my specific beliefs isn't really a Christian.  Baloney. 

Not full of myself at all.  Just don't trust you or your questions.  You're disingenuous.  Your intent (at least with me) is not dialog, but to try and find some kind of contradiction, particularly when it comes to your anti-religious extremism.  I'm perfectly willing to have a dialogue with anyone who is sincere about talking story (as we say here).

[The Luke]

The Luke, could you please give a scripture reference for this?

...couldn't provide a scripture refernce, but I'm referring to Jesus comment that "Some of you here present today will see the [end times]" (someone here will find the verse and line)
Jesus was referring to the coming astrological alignment (a "Shenkinah": helical rising of Mercury and Venus on the equinox) that would lead the Jews to rise up in a violent (failed) revolt in 70 AD. This revolt was crushed by Titus and lead to the diaspora.  

The early church fathers explained this inconsistency by claiming that the apostle Peter survived his own inverted crucifixion and became an immortal wandering prophet. (Cough... bullshit!... cough)

lol . . . So all of the professionals I know, many with advanced degrees, are stupid? 

..I'd hazard a guess they aren't advanced degrees in science fields.
English literature (for example) is a legitimate field of study, but it doesn't provide an insight into the workings of reality the way a hard (numerate) science would. Hard scientists are ALL atheists.  

Statistically speaking it would be unusual if you happened to only meet members of the minuscule subset of scientists who are actual believers.

Obama didn't just profess a belief in Good.  He called himself a practicing Christian.  

.. I'd like to see a chapter and verse on this.


The Luke

[Straw Man]

I have never said anyone who doesn't share my specific beliefs isn't really a Christian.  Baloney. 

Not full of myself at all.  Just don't trust you or your questions.  You're disingenuous.  Your intent (at least with me) is not dialog, but to try and find some kind of contradiction, particularly when it comes to your anti-religious extremism.  I'm perfectly willing to have a dialogue with anyone who is sincere about talking story (as we say here).

You seem a bit paranoid and I've tried to ask you questions that don't disturb your delicate sensibilities.

 Just because you claim I'm disingenious does not make it true.  I'm not anti-religious (as I've explained to you repeatedly but still apply this statement to me and think it's true).  I'm for freedom of all religious belief which includes the right to have no religion.  The reason you are allowed to be an openly practising christian is because we have freedom religious  belief and expression in this country and that is a good thing.

Here is a simple question.  In your opinion - can one be a true christian (in whatever you believe that to be) and also believe in the right to abortion and/or gay marriage?

   

[Dos Equis]

...couldn't provide a scripture refernce, but I'm referring to Jesus comment that "Some of you here present today will see the [end times]" (someone here will find the verse and line)
Jesus was referring to the coming astrological alignment (a "Shenkinah": helical rising of Mercury and Venus on the equinox) that would lead the Jews to rise up in a violent (failed) revolt in 70 AD. This revolt was crushed by Titus and lead to the diaspora.  

The early church fathers explained this inconsistency by claiming that the apostle Peter survived his own inverted crucifixion and became an immortal wandering prophet. (Cough... bullshit!... cough)

..I'd hazard a guess they aren't advanced degrees in science fields.
English literature (for example) is a legitimate field of study, but it doesn't provide an insight into the workings of reality the way a hard (numerate) science would. Hard scientists are ALL atheists.  

Statistically speaking it would be unusual if you happened to only meet members of the minuscule subset of scientists who are actual believers.
.. I'd like to see a chapter and verse on this.


The Luke

Your guess is wrong.    They are from all walks of life:  education, medicine, science, law, etc.  If you are contending that anyone who is a devout Christian is not intelligent, then that is pure hyperbole.   

Chapter and verse concerning Obama would be right here:  http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=234274.0 

Would be interested in your spin . . . I mean comments on this.   

[tjschoenborn]

Ther isn't any evidence of this.

Karl rove and other republicans put out this rumor.  Obama denied it.  He provided proof he was born in USA, and his grade-school record all the way back until kindergarten.  There was a nasty rumor about 3 months back that he attended a muslim grade school.  The school was looked at, and the story proven false.

So while many repubs keep saying he is - there isn't a bit of evidence to prove this.  Clinton and Mccain would LOVE nothing more than outing him as a muslim.  But so far - after 20 months of smears - it's still just something they say that they can't prove.

Karl Rove and others float one BIG rumor every month, and they all have turned out to be jsut that - rumors.  They keep promising a whitey tape, proof his birth cert isn't valid (even tho the state of Hawaii says it is), etc.  It's just politics as usual.  I see people in my gym swearing Obama is a muslim... there isn't any proof.  It's just his middle name, and you can't control what your parents name you.

You keep saying this is false, but how can you prove he is not? Do you know what is in his mind and heart? In the koran it say that the can hide their true identities to further their movement. So how is one to know. The fact that the is some suspected ties between him and muslims that is freaky!

[tjschoenborn]

does it matter to you if he was muslim?

This country was founded on Christian belief. So yes it would make a difference!

[calmus]

This country was founded on Christian belief. So yes it would make a difference!

Oh brother.   

[Straw Man]

This country was founded on Christian belief. So yes it would make a difference!

not really but that seems to be a popular myth these days

[The Luke]

Your guess is wrong.    They are from all walks of life:  education, medicine, science, law, etc.  If you are contending that anyone who is a devout Christian is not intelligent, then that is pure hyperbole.   

...could you be more specific?

I remember a study surveying 200 people with IQs measured above 150 and not a single one of them believed in a higher power of any kind... and none of them were practicing religious traditionalists. Seemingly, only the soft subjects (arts) foster belief in a personal god.

Highly intelligent people who are truly devout in any religion is quite the rarity according to neuroscientists.


The Luke  

[calmus]

...could you be more specific?

I remember a study surveying 200 people with IQs measured above 150 and not a single one of them believed in a higher power of any kind... and none of them were practicing religious traditionalists. Seemingly, only the soft subjects (arts) foster belief in a personal god.

Highly intelligent people who are truly devout in any religion is quite the rarity according to neuroscientists.


The Luke  

How many of them believed in bigfoot, chief?