For all you Mopes posting Communist crap

[Bindare_Dundat]

There is a big difference between Bill Gastes donating a few million, (and still having X Billion left) and the governement seizing personal property (taxes) under the threat of force and/or fear from people in the middle classes. That third they take out of my paycheck every month is a fucking house payment you self-righteous retards.

So you think most government handouts only go to hungry children and people down on their luck, eh? Proove to me that 90%+ of funds handed to the dregs of society are not spent on things like booze, cigarettes, rap CDs, drugs and indirectly facilitating more children.

Come out here and lets take a little walk... I really want to see how you communist cocksuckers will justify what you will see in the lower class (welfare) neighborhoods.

Decker I notice you didn't take Bundare or I's offer to assist you in helping your fellow man. As long as it's someone else's $$$ thats getting pilfered, right?

You sound like you are some lib college fuck who has yet to be exposed to the real world.

Grow up.

Ding, Ding, Ding, we have a winner.

[Slapper]

These people are fascists! OH-MY-GOD!! I swear I'm reading the same EXACT rethoric on Conspiracy And Imprisonment, 1940-1945.

Holy shit, Germans used to say the same things!!!!!

[James Phoenix]

liberals are communists/socialists.  How would you like them re-distributing your wealth?

What wealth?

[Decker]

...


Decker I notice you didn't take Bundare or I's offer to assist you in helping your fellow man. As long as it's someone else's $$$ thats getting pilfered, right?

You sound like you are some lib college fuck who has yet to be exposed to the real world.

Grow up.

I know you.  Outside of that unpleasant fact, how do you like having to be reminded what it means to be a human being instead of miserly shut-in such as yourself?

All politics is values and you value your polished pennies over your fellow man.  Good job.  Thanks for reversing the evolutionary trend of minimizing the ego for the mind to flourish.

It's also gratifying to see a man of your standing--one who knows what the 'real world' is like...

To that I say, the world is what we make it.  You can hide in your house, armed with your guns, sleeping on your money (I mean gold) in the mattress, breathing the rarified air of a survivalist in your real world, but you're lost.  And I'm here to help you.

There's more to all this than the pennies you hoard and the rightwing programming that you repeat.

[Bindare_Dundat]

I know you.  Outside of that unpleasant fact, how do you like having to be reminded what it means to be a human being instead of miserly shut-in such as yourself?

All politics is values and you value your polished pennies over your fellow man.  Good job.  Thanks for reversing the evolutionary trend of minimizing the ego for the mind to flourish.

It's also gratifying to see a man of your standing--one who knows what the 'real world' is like...

To that I say, the world is what we make it.  You can hide in your house, armed with your guns, sleeping on your money (I mean gold) in the mattress, breathing the rarified air of a survivalist in your real world, but you're lost.  And I'm here to help you.

There's more to all this than the pennies you hoard and the rightwing programming that you repeat.

I don't agree with everything Hereford says but he's pretty much right on when it comes to government forcefully taking money that is mine and redistributing to others. If I want my money going to welfare causes, I'll donate it. I should be able to choose where my money goes and not have others dictate to me how the fruits of my hard labor will be spent. It's a general answer and  I think that was the main point of the post, at least mine was.

[Decker]

I don't agree with everything Hereford says but he's pretty much right on when it comes to government forcefully taking money that is mine and redistributing to others. If I want my money going to welfare causes, I'll donate it. I should be able to choose where my money goes and not have others dictate to me how the fruits of my hard labor will be spent. It's a general answer and  I think that was the main point of the post, at least mine was.

Sorry but Hereford is dead wrong, government and life do not work that way.  We are not an aggregate of free spirits incidentally occupying the same geography with no thought or obligation to anyone but ourselves.

There is a national character and interest.  That includes not only funding the national infrastructure but also our people.  By living in this country, you've tacitly agreed to be subject to the laws that serve the national interest of the people.  That includes tax expenditures for AFDC as well as trillion dollar bailouts for big corporations.  You may not like some of the expenditures but this is not the dictatorship of bindaredundat....sometim es the spending is not what you like.  I don't care for my tax dollars being used to kill innocent Iraqis or pay the military industrial complex.

You are free in the US.  You do not have unfettered freedom equal to license.

Your tax bill is the price of admission to the greatest country on earth.  Why should you be exempt from the burdens paid by others? 

[Bindare_Dundat]

Sorry but Hereford is dead wrong, government and life do not work that way.  We are not an aggregate of free spirits incidentally occupying the same geography with no thought or obligation to anyone but ourselves.

There is a national character and interest.  That includes not only funding the national infrastructure but also our people.  By living in this country, you've tacitly agreed to be subject to the laws that serve the national interest of the people.  That includes tax expenditures for AFDC as well as trillion dollar bailouts for big corporations.  You may not like some of the expenditures but this is not the dictatorship of bindaredundat....sometim es the spending is not what you like.  I don't care for my tax dollars being used to kill innocent Iraqis or pay the military industrial complex.

You are free in the US.  You do not have unfettered freedom equal to license.

Your tax bill is the price of admission to the greatest country on earth.  Why should you be exempt from the burdens paid by others? 

That's fine. That's your interpretation of how the coutry should run. You accept that life doesn't work that way, I don't. My interpretation of how things should be differs.

Living in a "free" country means always having a choice. I'm not subject to being forced to do anything I don't want to. That doesn't mean I have a right to kill or cause pain to fellow citizens and if anything this freedom puts more responsibility on me to do the right and proper thing if I truely desire peace and prosperity for my neighbor. Living in a truly free country grants me the right to keep the fruits of my labor. Not being able to do so, is considered theft.

Everyone has this choice. Government wants you to believe you don't. Politicians are our servants, we tell them how we want things to run, not the other way around. People seem to have forgotten tht's how it's suppose to be. No one has to be burdened if they learn who they are within the system and what their true rights are.

In my opinion, if every man is created equal, this means that no one has authority over me. I have not granted that authority to anyone.

I find it amusing how often roads and infastructure are used to rationalize taxing others to death. Suddendly everyone cares for the roads. But how much is collected compared to how much is actually spent on these things? Income tax and other taxes haven't gone down substantially. Why is it that infastructure is falling apart? Do you really trust that the money goes where they say it goes? Part of collecting full welfare compensation is having an address, I don't know how many homeless people I've seen or heard of from social workers that are collecting full benefits and the first thing the do is go and shoot up. No one is checking to see if these are legitimate cases, so it goes on and on and on.

Also, based on the fact that certain systems such as welfare, for example, have been around for as long as they have and have not helped to the degree they should have, proves to me that they are a failure. I don't like to support failing programs or programs that enable people to stay dependant on a system that I'm paying for. If you subsidize something, you always get more of it.

Primarly privatly funded institutions like the Salvation Army,  seem to be more efficient at helping those in need as opposed to bureaucratic government agencies that waste time and money.

Sorry, I'm starting to go on a rant and I hope I articulated myself alright, its late, I'm tired as heck and I could go ona and on but anyway you should read this little book. It's an eye opener, at least for me it was.

HOW I CLOBBERED
EVERY BUREAUCRATIC
CASH-CONFISCATORY AGENCY
KNOWN TO MAN
... a Spiritual Economics Book
on $$$ and
Remembering Who You Are

[dkf360]

Ummmm, leave them to their own devices?

I don't have any issue whatsoever with helping someone out for a year or two if really needed... but most of the dregs are lifers at the public trough. When a welfare has no job skills and has three kids... then has another two whole on the dole... doesn't that tell you something? Do you ever see them really even trying?  Most WIC and welfares are still getting a check year after year after year after year after.....

They can get a job and pay their bills like the rest of us.

I agree that they need to be reformed.  And you also agree with me that we should help someone out for a limited period of time...so where would that money come from if its not collected from us in the form of taxes?

[Bindare_Dundat]

I agree that they need to be reformed.  And you also agree with me that we should help someone out for a limited period of time...so where would that money come from if its not collected from us in the form of taxes?

The more of your own money you get to keep because of less taxes, the more willing you would probably be to donate to people in need, be it  in time, because you would not have to work as much to make  the same of amount of money or with actual funds.

[Decker]

That's fine. That's your interpretation of how the coutry should run. You accept that life doesn't work that way, I don't. My interpretation of how things should be differs.

See that's the problem.  I'm telling you how it is and you are telling me how it should be.  That's fine.  Do not confuse what is with how it ought to be.

Living in a "free" country means always having a choice. I'm not subject to being forced to do anything I don't want to. That doesn't mean I have a right to kill or cause pain to fellow citizens and if anything this freedom puts more responsibility on me to do the right and proper thing if I truely desire peace and prosperity for my neighbor. Living in a truly free country grants me the right to keep the fruits of my labor. Not being able to do so, is considered theft.

You have to register with the selective service.  You have to have auto insurance before you can drive a car.  You have to pay your taxes to live in a free country. 

Just b/c you don't like a certain tax expenditure does not make the collection of that tax 'theft'.  I'm sorry but that's just absurd.  That's the height of uninformed selfishness b/c you fail to acknowledge our democratic republic's governance by consent of the governed and all the achievements in this country that made your life even possible here.  As I've said, you tacitly agree to be bound by the directives of this gov. simply b/c you live here.  Some of those directives are unsavory to you but not others.  That's not stealing or some other crime, that's the trappings of living in a society like ours.

Everyone has this choice. Government wants you to believe you don't. Politicians are our servants, we tell them how we want things to run, not the other way around. People seem to have forgotten tht's how it's suppose to be. No one has to be burdened if they learn who they are within the system and what their true rights are.

If you don't like certain tax expenditre then petition your representative or organize a political coalition to have those expenditures changed.

In my opinion, if every man is created equal, this means that no one has authority over me. I have not granted that authority to anyone.

All men are not created equal.  How do I know?  I don't have Michael Jordan's ability play ball.  I don't have Hawking's ability to analyze theoretical physics...we should, ideally, be born with equal opportunity but even that's bullshit.  If GW Bush wasn't born a Bush, he'd be selling shoes in Decatur, IL.

You have granted authority over yourself to the gov. b/c you are the gov in this country.  Governing by the consent of the governed....except where BINDAREDUNDAT is concerned.  Why are you special over the rest of us?

I find it amusing how often roads and infastructure are used to rationalize taxing others to death. Suddendly everyone cares for the roads. But how much is collected compared to how much is actually spent on these things? Income tax and other taxes haven't gone down substantially. Why is it that infastructure is falling apart? Do you really trust that the money goes where they say it goes? Part of collecting full welfare compensation is having an address, I don't know how many homeless people I've seen or heard of from social workers that are collecting full benefits and the first thing the do is go and shoot up. No one is checking to see if these are legitimate cases, so it goes on and on and on.

Infrastructure is falling apart b/c massmurdering cocksuckers like Bush and Big Mac are pissing away billions a week in an illegal occupation of IRaq, bailing out criminal corporations so that elitest fucks can walk away from a disaster they manufactured with millions in their pockets, and generally feeding over 1/2 our annual budget to unneeded military escalation.  I don't get pissed about fucking food stamps to hungry people.  No.

Thanks for your selective 'worse of the worst' to characterize the average AFDC recipient.  That's the problem you and Hereford think every colored junky out there is getting a ride on your coattails mate.  Do you know the stats for AFDC recipients?  I do.

Also, based on the fact that certain systems such as welfare, for example, have been around for as long as they have and have not helped to the degree they should have, proves to me that they are a failure. I don't like to support failing programs or programs that enable people to stay dependant on a system that I'm paying for. If you subsidize something, you always get more of it.

This is another rightwing absurdity.  Do you know what the poverty rate in this country was before AFDC?  Do you know the time limit of benefits paid for AFDC recipients?  Do you know that minorities are not the biggest percentage of recipients of AFDC?  Or are you just regurgitating tired rightwing cliches?

Do you know that country's with the most spending on Welfare have the lowest poverty rates?  Do you know that in 1964 prior to Johnson's declaration of war on poverty, the US had a 19% poverty level and by 1973, after the implementation of augmented spending, the rate dropped to 11% and stayed that way for the most part?

Primarly privatly funded institutions like the Salvation Army,  seem to be more efficient at helping those in need as opposed to bureaucratic government agencies that waste time and money.

How do you know this?  Do you also know that gov. is much much much more efficient than the private sector re administrative businesses such as running insurance or the like.  It's not even close in some cases.  The efficiency of the private secotr over the public is another cherished myth of the right.

Sorry, I'm starting to go on a rant and I hope I articulated myself alright, its late, I'm tired as heck and I could go ona and on but anyway you should read this little book. It's an eye opener, at least for me it was.

I know and I apologize if I come off as tendentious.

HOW I CLOBBERED EVERY BUREAUCRATIC CASH-CONFISCATORY AGENCY KNOWN TO MAN ... a Spiritual Economics Book on $$$ and Remembering Who You Are

Here's a link that debunks most tax avoidance myths.  It is great and it's free.


http://evans-legal.com/dan/tpfaq.html

[Bindare_Dundat]

I should have specified I was only referring to one tax in my post, Income Tax and I made some other omissions/slight errors in conveying my stance, that's what happens when you're tired.

Anyway, the book I suggested is only 100 pages and it's free too, PDF. Here you go.

 http://www.freedomfiles.org/mary-book.pdf



Give it a read, it won't take long and it can explain things better than I ever could on here. I don't agree with everything in it but I think it gives a great different slant on the world we think we see and understand. No offense taken.

[garebear]

I know you.  Outside of that unpleasant fact, how do you like having to be reminded what it means to be a human being instead of miserly shut-in such as yourself?

All politics is values and you value your polished pennies over your fellow man.  Good job.  Thanks for reversing the evolutionary trend of minimizing the ego for the mind to flourish.
It's also gratifying to see a man of your standing--one who knows what the 'real world' is like...

To that I say, the world is what we make it.  You can hide in your house, armed with your guns, sleeping on your money (I mean gold) in the mattress, breathing the rarified air of a survivalist in your real world, but you're lost.  And I'm here to help you.

There's more to all this than the pennies you hoard and the rightwing programming that you repeat.

Hey, are you by chance a reader of Eckhart Tolle?

[Decker]

Hey, are you by chance a reader of Eckhart Tolle?

Sorry, I've never heard of him.

[loco]

I know you.  Outside of that unpleasant fact, how do you like having to be reminded what it means to be a human being instead of miserly shut-in such as yourself?

All politics is values and you value your polished pennies over your fellow man.  Good job.  Thanks for reversing the evolutionary trend of minimizing the ego for the mind to flourish.

It's also gratifying to see a man of your standing--one who knows what the 'real world' is like...

To that I say, the world is what we make it.  You can hide in your house, armed with your guns, sleeping on your money (I mean gold) in the mattress, breathing the rarified air of a survivalist in your real world, but you're lost.  And I'm here to help you.

There's more to all this than the pennies you hoard and the rightwing programming that you repeat.

Decker,
I agree with you, but I believe we should freely share our stuff with our fellow human beings and help those in need voluntarily and as individuals, as opposed to being forced by the government to so.  I agree that I shouldn't be greedy and selfish, and that sometimes I should help even those who do not even want to help themselves, but that's just me and I shouldn't expect the government to force others to feel the same way and do the same thing as I.

[Decker]

Decker,
I agree with you, but I believe we should freely share our stuff with our fellow human beings and help those in need voluntarily and as individuals, as opposed to being forced by the government to so.  I agree that I shouldn't be greedy and selfish, and that sometimes I should help even those who do not even want to help themselves, but that's just me and I shouldn't expect the government to force others to feel the same way and do the same thing as I.

If a person does not have kids, should they pay taxes to support the local schools?  If a person does not drive a car or ride the bus, should that person pay taxes to support the maintenance of roads and highways?

We are the government.  If you disagree with a tax expenditure, write your rep or start a coalition for change.

I know what you're saying, may I paraphrase?  Gov. should not be able to force citizen's to finance poverty programs for poor men, women, children, or elderly people even if the elected reps have decided such action is necessary to a smooth running country.

This quasi-libertarian impulse to view any government as evil or the like is foolish to me.  Government can do good as well as evil.  Granted, the good decedents of Iraq would never understand that, but I do.

We the People can always change things.  The wheels of change turn slowly, except where there's billion dollar bailouts or the slaughter of oil rich third world peasants, but we do our best.

[loco]

If a person does not have kids, should they pay taxes to support the local schools?  If a person does not drive a car or ride the bus, should that person pay taxes to support the maintenance of roads and highways?

No.

We are the government.  If you disagree with a tax expenditure, write your rep or start a coalition for change.

I know what you're saying, may I paraphrase?  Gov. should not be able to force citizen's to finance poverty programs for poor men, women, children, or elderly people even if the elected reps have decided such action is necessary to a smooth running country.

This quasi-libertarian impulse to view any government as evil or the like is foolish to me.  Government can do good as well as evil.  Granted, the good decedents of Iraq would never understand that, but I do.

We the People can always change things.  The wheels of change turn slowly, except where there's billion dollar bailouts or the slaughter of oil rich third world peasants, but we do our best.

Good points.  Libertarians are some times accused of anarchists.  Tomas Jefferson was considered an anarchist by some, though he wasn't.  I'm neither.  I just don't believe in Socialism.  It looks good on paper, but in practice...that's another story.  I do however believe in sharing your wealth with the poor, the orphans and the widows, out of my own free will and not by force. 

Look at Social Security in the US, too many old people soon to be unable to work, not enough babies to fill those jobs in the future.  Less people wanting to have babies, more people unable to have them, too many babies being aborted.  What makes you think more welfare and social programs will work?  How will the government fund them?

[Decker]

No.

But doesn't the country as whole not only dependon  but prosper from an educated citizenry or from well built/maintained roads so commerce can happen?  I think the answer is pretty obvious.   are a true hermit, you need a society to exist.

Good points.  Libertarians are some times accused of anarchists.  Tomas Jefferson was considered an anarchist by some, though he wasn't.  I'm neither.  I just don't believe in Socialism.  It looks good on paper, but in practice...that's another story.  I do however believe in sharing your wealth with the poor, the orphans and the widows, out of my own free will and not by force. 

Look at Social Security in the US, too many old people soon to be unable to work, not enough babies to fill those jobs in the future.  Less people wanting to have babies, more people unable to have them, too many babies being aborted.  What makes you think more Welfare and social programs will work?  How will the government fund them?

Good man on your personal virtue.  We had loads of personal virtue from the late 19th century into the 20th century.  It does not meet the needs.  Poverty of the worst sort flourished. 

I don't know what you mean by socialism.  Is any governmental expenditure of tax dollars socialism to you?

Social Security is just fine for the next 30+ years.  Reagan pre-funded the trust to pay for the baby boom bubble.  That money was borrowed away.  Clinton started paying down the debt and left Bush with a surplus.  Did we pay off those Soc. Sec. obligations?  No, Bush signed the largest tax cut in history.

These people are like locusts and the treasury/citizenry are the crops.
 

[garebear]

Sorry, I've never heard of him.

Never heard of him?

You very nearly quoted him verbatim.

It is the feeding of the human ego that is thought to be the source of inner and outer conflict. Only in examining one's ego may people begin to see beyond it and obtain a sense of spiritual enlightening or a new outlook on reality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle

You should read something by him. Sounds right up your alley.

[y19mike77]

I get physically sick every time I hear someone spouting this crap.

The only people who believe this shit are people who never had anything and expect others to provide for their well-being.

Send me $50 bucks. I need to get some gas. What's that? Yea, it only is suppose to go one way right? From those who produce to those who consume...

"You love your money more than your fellow American?" Fuck yes I do. Until my fellow American comes over and mows my lawn, cooks dinner or in some way is useful to me, they do NOT deserve the benefits of my toils.

Dam Right.

[Decker]

Never heard of him?

You very nearly quoted him verbatim.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckhart_Tolle

You should read something by him. Sounds right up your alley.

The stuff I reference comes from classes in religion I had at school and discussions with a professor/Episcopalian minister over Kiekegaard and Hegel and Harry Tiebout, Jr.

It's nice to know others out there think the same way.

[egj13]

simple fix to you libs that want to lift up the impoverished....put a box for donations on the tax form.  You "caring" libs can donate all you want.  I have a feeling that Decker's box would go unchecked.  How much did you donate last year to help all of those hungry kids Decker?