Religion, the Founding Fathers, and the Constitution

[loco]

Yes we were indeed discussing the >foundation of america<, not the founders themselves of whom which most were deists and Freemasons. lol.

This was the statement that originally sparked the discussion. Please tell me where in the new testament it says that church and gov must be kept separate. Then prove the link between that and the constitution.

Yes, we are discussing the founding of the nation, and the founding fathers too.  You made a statement about the founding fathers which is false.

[lovemonkey]

Yes, we are discussing the founding of the nation, and the founding fathers too.  You made a statement about the founding fathers which is false.

Not sure which statement you are referring to? Please quote me so we are on the same page here.

AGAIN, you insist that the foundation was built upon christian values and morals which also was the starting point for the whole discussion. So the founders in your opinion must have drawn their inspiration from scripture ala the bible.

So I quote my question:

Please tell me where in the new testament it says that church and gov must be kept separate. Then prove the link between that and the constitution.

[lovemonkey]

Btw, I've struggled my self through some of those articles again.

Most of the quotes refer to the liberty and independence of the american people, attributing it to the christian morals.... What? Irrelevant.

Edit: Most of your quotes stems from the Declaration of Independence. Most of it was written by Thomas Jefferson, a strict deist! And it holds zero legal power.

Still can't seem to find any proof that the constitution the founding fathers wrote had drawn any inspiration from the christian teachings.

[Slapper]

Weren't the "Founding fathers" the same group of masons who said only rich people could vote, the same group of people who wrote nice books about individuality, freedom and the evils of slavery yet somehow missed the bringing the theory-into-practice part (for more than 200 years mind you!) and laid the moral foundation for one of the biggest massacres in later centuries: The "disappearance" of the American Indians.

Oh, before I forget, the Constitution, writen around that time, states that African Americans are 3/5 of a person.

Are you guys talking about the same "righteous" group of "people"?.

[lovemonkey]

Weren't the "Founding fathers" the same group of masons who said only rich people could vote, the same group of people who wrote nice books about individuality, freedom and the evils of slavery yet somehow missed the bringing the theory-into-practice part (for more than 200 years mind you!) and laid the moral foundation for one of the biggest massacres in later centuries: The "disappearance" of the American Indians.

Oh, before I forget, the Constitution, writen around that time, states that African Americans are 3/5 of a person.

Interesting information, but really how does that prove that the Constitution was funded upon christian values? Where in the Constitution does it say that?

[lovemonkey]

Now I've reread some more of that infamous humongous article you posted Loco.

I dare say that this is the main thesis or main argument if you will, in the article:

"Therefore, if the article is read as a declaration that the federal government of the United States was not in any sense founded on the Christian religion, such a statement is not a repudiation of the fact that America was considered a Christian nation."

The author is just running around in circles and not bringing anything new to the table. The argument was never if the U.S was a christian nation or not, but whether it was FOUNDED as one, drawing moral lesson from the bible.

[Slapper]

Interesting information, but really how does that prove that the Constitution was funded upon christian values? Where in the Constitution does it say that?

No, I'm not saying it does, in fact it's quite the opposite. I believe American intellectualism, at the time, was heavily influenced by French philosophy and thought, people like Voltaire and Rousseau, whose set of political ideas were indeed secular although, as with most of Europe, influenced (somewhat) by Christian beliefs, like it or not. The only difference is that these new ideas brought forth by all these philosophers were indeed put to practice in France, but not here in the States, where the Constitution was a façade to masquerade the fact that the (American) revolution DID NOT have a mass base, but it was only the idea of a group of masons.

Now, as to how influenced our Constitution is on Christian values... well, I'd say a lot, like all Constitutions written at the time. I mean, you won't see it in specific phrases or in multitude of passages, but in concepts, ideas, etc. That which you think is revolutionary can have a religious base, like the "all men are created equal" line, that has Christian thought written all over it, even thought it's not followed by "in the eyes of the Lord".

[lovemonkey]

No, I'm not saying it does, in fact it's quite the opposite. I believe American intellectualism, at the time, was heavily influenced by French philosophy and thought, people like Voltaire and Rousseau, whose set of political ideas were indeed secular although, as with most of Europe, influenced (somewhat) by Christian beliefs, like it or not. The only difference is that these new ideas brought forth by all these philosophers were indeed put to practice in France, but not here in the States, where the Constitution was a façade to masquerade the fact that the (American) revolution DID NOT have a mass base, but it was only the idea of a group of masons.

Now, as to how influenced our Constitution is on Christian values... well, I'd say a lot, like all Constitutions written at the time. I mean, you won't see it in specific phrases or in multitude of passages, but in concepts, ideas, etc. That which you think is revolutionary can have a religious base, like the "all men are created equal" line, that has Christian thought written all over it, even thought it's not followed by "in the eyes of the Lord".

You are making the assumption that without christianity they would lack the values and morals to write the constitution? Remember most of them were deists and freemasons and using the bible as a source of inspiration when conjuring the constitution would seem pretty alien to them.

I see what you're saying but to attribute the healthy morals and principals in the constitution almost solely to christianity is giving it too much credit.

[Slapper]

You are making the assumption that without christianity they would lack the values and morals to write the constitution? Remember most of them were deists and freemasons and using the bible as a source of inspiration when conjuring the constitution would seem pretty alien to them.

No, no, I'm saying that the very forward-looking ideas about the individual and the role of institutions that the FF based their though on are heavily influenced by Christian though. You have to understand that Christian "philosophy" has been around 2,000 years, and churchmen have ALWAYS been amongst the intellectual elite in every country.

Like I said, phrases like "all men are created equal" is a very "Christian" line, the only difference being that in Christian though it is usually followed by "in the eyes of the lord". A lot of what we think is "secular" is nothing more than recycled Christian thought. I must admit that I am an atheist and I am in no way speaking from a pro-Christian stance.

I see what you're saying but to attribute the healthy morals and principals in the constitution almost solely to christianity is giving it too much credit.

Not the healthy morals, I'd say part of the basis of our morals was stolen from Christian beliefs. I mean, this is nothing new, and it certainly wasn't new back in the XVIII century. Those who wrote it might want you to think that it was morally innovative, but the truth is that the Greeks were talking about the individual 400-500 years BC. These basic principles of philosophy eventually somehow morphed into what then became Christianity and eventually spread all over Europe, morphing even further and acquiring the local belief base. Needless to say it eventually made it into America, which was founded on a somewhat radicalized version of Christianity but, because of religious persecution in England, valued the "freedom" to do as you like (like pray, marry or plow the land) over most things. It was this freedom "seed" that eventually blossomed in the US Constitution. But make no mistake, all of this has an origin, nothing new, been discussed for many years.

You know this already, so I apologize for rambling on and on.

[lovemonkey]

Not the healthy morals, I'd say part of the basis of our morals was stolen from Christian beliefs. I mean, this is nothing new, and it certainly wasn't new back in the XVIII century. Those who wrote it might want you to think that it was morally innovative, but the truth is that the Greeks were talking about the individual 400-500 years BC. These basic principles of philosophy eventually somehow morphed into what then became Christianity and eventually spread all over Europe, morphing even further and acquiring the local belief base. Needless to say it eventually made it into America, which was founded on a somewhat radicalized version of Christianity but, because of religious persecution in England, valued the "freedom" to do as you like (like pray, marry or plow the land) over most things. It was this freedom "seed" that eventually blossomed in the US Constitution. But make no mistake, all of this has an origin, nothing new, been discussed for many years.

Wouldn't it be a healthy generalization to say that all the morals we consider good and just comes from the humans themselves and the social interaction between them, not from religion? That the good cherrypicked religious values stems from society, not other way around?
This is a bit of a stretch and I realize it myself and you bring up many good points. Way more effective than Loco will ever be.

What bugs me most is the attempts christians make to claim that their Bible is the inventor of good morals. An outright lie.

But fact still remains, nowhere does the Constitution favor the god of the desert and his supposed son, jesus and his teachings. It is above all, a secular document.

[Dos Equis]

Oh gosh.

Don't mistake secular for atheism or anti theism. The foundation of the country is indeed secular even though the founders were religious.

What's so hard to grasp here?

I was addressing your first post in this thread:

The founding fathers, no matter how religious, were secularists.

What did you mean by this?  That they were not Christian?  Not religious at all? 

Also, what is your explanation for George Washington's prayer book? 

[Dos Equis]

You were not talking about the foundation of the country.  You were talking about the founders when you said that they were secular.  You were wrong about them.  Secular people do not practice religion at all and religion is not a significant part of their life.  Now you are changing your story.

I agree. 

[lovemonkey]

If that is so, how do explain slavery or the decimation of the Native American population? I mean, we certainly knew we were doing something wrong, as individuals.

I mean, it's well documented that morals, values and beliefs were "outsourced" to the Church for many, many centuries. It has permeated into our every action. To say that it did not somehow percolate into the Constitution, not from a religious point of view mind you, is not correct.

I agree with you that good and bad morals, values, beliefs are indeed a personal (individual) thing though.

I'm pretty sure people would still commit horrendous acts even as atheists. Some people suck no matter what. Wouldn't surprise me though if they justified slavery with holy scripture. But that's something I never studied so don't take my word for it. lol

You make good points there and I don't deny them. Maybe the discussion derailed a bit.

But I still hold firm at the opinion that the U.S was not founded as a christian nation and I'm sure the founding fathers of whom which most were deists and freemasons, would disagree with Loco.

[lovemonkey]

I was addressing your first post in this thread:


What did you mean by this?  That they were not Christian?  Not religious at all? 

Also, what is your explanation for George Washington's prayer book? 

I meant that they practiced secularism in their jobs as rulers and founders. Quote from wikipedia on secularism:

Secularism is generally the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion or religious beliefs...

Lets play the quote game that some of you like so much:

George Washington

Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.

Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

So much for being a christian huh?

John Adams

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."

In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

Want me to go on?

[drkaje]

Jake's $0.02:

The founders were very religious and puritanical to boot!!

In the same vein they understood human nature and their own weakness. Ultimately, this is the reason why they needed the Constitution and no state religion.

It only takes reading a few posts here to realize that most people are stupid. Stupid might not be the technical term, but it's some special kind of arrogance. People generally cannot help externalizing their values and wanting to impose them upon others.

The Puritans realized their own intolerance would eventually run unchecked with a state religion. Also, no state religion rendered them unaccountable, as Christians, for the treatment of Indians, slaves, Muslims, Jews or anyone else for that matter.

This way people are allowed to 'believe' as Christians without any obligation to act in a christian manner.

[liberalismo]

Here is the 411:


*America was originally settled specifically for religious purposes. People wanted to come here so that they could freely practice their religions.

*The United States government was founded by Christians for the most part, but many of the more prominent founding fathers were "Deists" and did not have nice things to say about Christianity or the Bible.

*The Declaration of independence mentions God, but it doesn't specify religion, and it only uses "God" vaguely in the context of inalienable rights of man.

*There are many texts and many quotes from the time of the founding of the U.S. which show that the founding fathers did not establish the United States as a Christian nation in any sense of the word and also that they were secularists who opposed religious influence of any kind on the workings of the U.S. Government.

*While many of the founding fathers opposed slavery (these were often the same ones critical of Christianity), Some founding fathers owned slaves themselves.

*The rights included in the declaration of independence and the constitution are rights which exist across religious boundaries and cultural boundaries.

The ONLY sense that the U.S. is a "Christian nation" is that most U.S. people are Christians of some sort. That's it.

[drkaje]

The founders were very religious and puritanical to boot!!

In the same vein they understood human nature and their own weakness. Ultimately, this is the reason why they needed the Constitution and no state religion.

It only takes reading a few posts here to realize that most people are stupid. Stupid might not be the technical term, but it's some special kind of arrogance. People generally cannot help externalizing their values and wanting to impose them upon others.

The Puritans realized their own intolerance would eventually run unchecked with a state religion and prevent others from practicing freely.

Also, no state religion renders them unaccountable, as Christians, for the treatment of Indians, slaves, Muslims, Jews or anyone else for that matter. This way people are allowed to 'believe' as Christians without any responsibility or obligation to act in a christian manner.

[lovemonkey]

I still have yet to see anyone bring forth any evidence that the Constitution was brought about with christian values from the bible.

[Dos Equis]

I meant that they practiced secularism in their jobs as rulers and founders. Quote from wikipedia on secularism:

Secularism is generally the assertion that governmental practices or institutions should exist separately from religion or religious beliefs...

Lets play the quote game that some of you like so much:

George Washington

Much of the myth of Washington's alleged Christianity came from Mason Weems influential book, "Life of Washington." The story of the cherry tree comes from this book and it has no historical basis. Weems, a Christian minister portrayed Washington as a devout Christian, yet Washington's own diaries show that he rarely attended Church.

Washington revealed almost nothing to indicate his spiritual frame of mind, hardly a mark of a devout Christian. In his thousands of letters, the name of Jesus Christ never appears. He rarely spoke about his religion, but his Freemasonry experience points to a belief in deism. Washington's initiation occurred at the Fredericksburg Lodge on 4 November 1752, later becoming a Master mason in 1799, and remained a freemason until he died.

To the United Baptist Churches in Virginia in May, 1789, Washington said that every man "ought to be protected in worshipping the Deity according to the dictates of his own conscience."

After Washington's death, Dr. Abercrombie, a friend of his, replied to a Dr. Wilson, who had interrogated him about Washington's religion replied, "Sir, Washington was a Deist."

So much for being a christian huh?

John Adams

Adams, a Unitarian, flatly denied the doctrine of eternal damnation. In a letter to Thomas Jefferson, he wrote:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"

In his letter to Samuel Miller, 8 July 1820, Adams admitted his unbelief of Protestant Calvinism: "I must acknowledge that I cannot class myself under that denomination."

In his, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" [1787-1788], John Adams wrote:

"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.

". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

Want me to go on?

Yes do go on.  But first, let me highlight your selective use of the definition you pulled from wiki.  The rest of the paragraph reads:

"Alternatively, it is a principle of promoting secular ideas or values in either public or private settings over religious ways of thought."

There is also this definition of secularist:  "One who is worldly rather than spiritual."  www.theism.net/authors/zjordan/docs_files/saint_files/terms.htm

But back to George Washington.  I read your quotes, but they don't explain why George Washington had a prayer book.  Why do you think he had a prayer book?  

And what about the Washington excerpts loco posted?  What is your take on this particular one:

Farewell Address, 1796:
Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of Men and Citizens.… And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion.… Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

He very clearly says religion and morality are the foundations of political prosperity.  He also that morality and religion are inseparable.  

[liberalismo]

I still have yet to see anyone bring forth any evidence that the Constitution was brought about with christian values from the bible.

Most of the things in the constitution aren't in the bible.

[Dos Equis]

Jake's $0.02:

The founders were very religious and puritanical to boot!!

In the same vein they understood human nature and their own weakness. Ultimately, this is the reason why they needed the Constitution and no state religion.

It only takes reading a few posts here to realize that most people are stupid. Stupid might not be the technical term, but it's some special kind of arrogance. People generally cannot help externalizing their values and wanting to impose them upon others.

The Puritans realized their own intolerance would eventually run unchecked with a state religion. Also, no state religion rendered them unaccountable, as Christians, for the treatment of Indians, slaves, Muslims, Jews or anyone else for that matter.

This way people are allowed to 'believe' as Christians without any obligation to act in a christian manner.

The law is all about us imposing our values on society. 

[lovemonkey]

The law is all about us imposing our values on society. 

But can they be credited for being christian values?

[drkaje]

The law is all about us imposing our values on society. 

It's entirely possible you don't understand what the law is supposed to protect.

[Dos Equis]

But can they be credited for being christian values?

Some yes, some no.  But the point is the voters always make value judgments at the polls.  

What often happens in political discussions is some people think religious based or religious influenced issues shouldn't even make it to the ballot.  

[Dos Equis]

It's entirely possible you don't understand what the law is supposed to protect.

It's entirely possible you don't understand how the legislative process works.