Author Topic: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??  (Read 13100 times)

liberalismo

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2008, 09:44:58 PM »
"I'm sorry, but denying science and accepting pseudoscience doesn't make you critical. It makes you an idiot."


. Please give me your thoughts on the monoamine theory of depression and why the development of such drugs are done so in a poor manner. SSRIS are based on false principles, wrong again chief. I beleive in everything that has been peer reviewed and doesnt stretch credulity. I dont think you want to get into a scientific discussion here, so far you have presented no evidence while i have. Your statement above is also considered character assasination as i said i didnt beleive in homeopathy, However i beleive accupuncture may be effective based on the research, how does your quote above hold any truth?

"Because its principles are false."

first off you dont even have a working knowledge of what your talking about, secondly provide some evidence. I want say if i agree or not but if you want to be scientific please provide peer reviewed research to support your statements, i will do so from now on.

"The mechanism isn't beyond our understand. Scientists know how and why sticking needles into one's skin relieves pain."

i didnt say it was another mis representation of what i said. As for your second statement prove it, also, if the theory is true then how does it work for nausea like the study above? does it bind to serotonergic receptors in the intestines like ginger, does it simply negate sensation in the stomach etc... how does it cause sedation and alterated heart stroke volume, there are also more exmaples of things it has been studied in. Your simpleton theory is weak at best. Also i doubt you have any knowledge of the endogenous opiate receptor, its densities in particular areas, time it takes to act etc.. Please provide evidence for your theory and how it works on other areas besides pain.

"I don't remember seeing that in the God delusion. "

he talked about water being recycled and us by the law of probability possibly drinking water from the bladder of julius caesar etc.. i can give you the page and exact quote if you like.


"Yes. I'm very open minded."

does accupuncture have a place in modern medicine, yes or no.

I'm not going to argue with you on the issue any longer. I certainly don't want to get into arguing about depression either. I've already stated what it is that I believe about homeopathy and acupuncture, and if you read my posts you will see my stance. I don't want to get involved in a long debate about something like that though, I just don't feel like it. I doubt I would be able to convince you anyway. My belief is that homeopathy can't possibly work. That's it. My belief about acupuncture reducing nausea is that it does it through some set of chemicals or another secreted in the body due to the needles being stuck into the skin. Whether it is beta-endorphins or the Adrenocorticotropic Hormone causing some inhibition of the Chemoreceptor trigger or vomiting areas of the brain or some similar mechanism, the cause of it reducing things like nausea is purely biological and does not result from the needles acting on some bio-energy or electro fields or whatnot.

I do remember now about Dawkins talking about water that Caesar drank or the Breath of Caesar.

Necrosis

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2008, 10:03:25 PM »
I'm not going to argue with you on the issue any longer. I certainly don't want to get into arguing about depression either. I've already stated what it is that I believe about homeopathy and acupuncture, and if you read my posts you will see my stance. I don't want to get involved in a long debate about something like that though, I just don't feel like it. I doubt I would be able to convince you anyway. My belief is that homeopathy can't possibly work. That's it. My belief about acupuncture reducing nausea is that it does it through some set of chemicals or another secreted in the body due to the needles being stuck into the skin. Whether it is beta-endorphins or the Adrenocorticotropic Hormone causing some inhibition of the Chemoreceptor trigger or vomiting areas of the brain or some similar mechanism, the cause of it reducing things like nausea is purely biological and does not result from the needles acting on some bio-energy or electro fields or whatnot.

I do remember now about Dawkins talking about water that Caesar drank or the Breath of Caesar.

wait a minute, i said homeopathy was bunk i was simply arguing that the arguments you were using against it are not sound. On top of that i said accupuncture likely works through a physical mechanism, exactly what you stated above. I think the needles have an effect on the nervous system which alters our physiology which creates the effect. I dont beleive in chi, i dont beleive in homeopathy, chiropractors that claim manipulations can cure disease or religion :D

i also think i have wasted my time studying homeopathy but i have to in order to obtain the official title which would allow me to have a dual clinic, i know you dont care about this but im just getting at the fact that i dont disagree with you, i just think endorphins cannot account for all the effects. Something else is involved and i would theorize that needles have different effects in different places on our physiology simply due to high amounts of tissue,proximity to organs, high numbers of ganglion etc...

I dont want to argue this any further. I really just dont like The Luke so i wanted to argue with him, you know he hunts big foot LMAO......

its kind of ironic that a guy hunts big foot yet makes fun of homeopathy for being pseudo science and quackery. Jesus, the people in this world.

liberalismo

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2008, 10:11:33 PM »
wait a minute, i said homeopathy was bunk i was simply arguing that the arguments you were using against it are not sound. On top of that i said accupuncture likely works through a physical mechanism, exactly what you stated above. I think the needles have an effect on the nervous system which alters our physiology which creates the effect. I dont beleive in chi, i dont beleive in homeopathy, chiropractors that claim manipulations can cure disease or religion :D

i also think i have wasted my time studying homeopathy but i have to in order to obtain the official title which would allow me to have a dual clinic, i know you dont care about this but im just getting at the fact that i dont disagree with you, i just think endorphins cannot account for all the effects. Something else is involved and i would theorize that needles have different effects in different places on our physiology simply due to high amounts of tissue,proximity to organs, high numbers of ganglion etc...

I dont want to argue this any further. I really just dont like The Luke so i wanted to argue with him, you know he hunts big foot LMAO......

its kind of ironic that a guy hunts big foot yet makes fun of homeopathy for being pseudo science and quackery. Jesus, the people in this world.


There are all types of "crazy" in this world. Bigfoot hunters are just one of many.

The Luke

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #78 on: November 08, 2008, 09:42:48 AM »
I dont want to argue this any further. I really just dont like The Luke so i wanted to argue with him, you know he hunts big foot LMAO......

its kind of ironic that a guy hunts big foot yet makes fun of homeopathy for being pseudo science and quackery. Jesus, the people in this world.

There are all types of "crazy" in this world. Bigfoot hunters are just one of many.

...the skepticism is commendable, but ill-informed.

Even Jane Goodall (the chimp lady) has come out on the side of Bigfoot existing.
At this moment the evidence includes footprints; handprints; fingerprints (verified by several primate dermatoglyphics experts); video and self consistent statistical evidence... oh, and I almost forgot the fossil evidence (Gigantopithecus blackii).

At least I did a little research on homeopathy before I came to a conclusion.


The Luke

liberalismo

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2008, 01:18:57 PM »
...the skepticism is commendable, but ill-informed.

Even Jane Goodall (the chimp lady) has come out on the side of Bigfoot existing.
At this moment the evidence includes footprints; handprints; fingerprints (verified by several primate dermatoglyphics experts); video and self consistent statistical evidence... oh, and I almost forgot the fossil evidence (Gigantopithecus blackii).

At least I did a little research on homeopathy before I came to a conclusion.


The Luke

I really don't care if Jane Goodall thinks that Bigfoot exists. Footprints, handprints and fingerprints can easily be faked or misinterpreted. The fact that several experts verify them to be primate prints, of origins that they don't know, doesn't prove that they are indeed bigfoot's. I know that there are a lot more experts who doubt the existence of bigfoot than who believe it, many more.
Gigantopithecus and Gigantopithecus blacki were real live primates that existed, and co-existed with homo-sapiens tens of thousands of years ago, but there is no evidence they are still alive. The most recent verified fossils from either species are very very old.

I have researched homeopathy as well as Bigfoot, UFOs, the Chupacabra, ghosts, etc. I know that if there were a species of ape similar to the Bigfoot then it would have been discovered already, high quality pictures taken, and it documented. All of the photographs are fuzzy and low quality, to an extent which is comical, all of the evidence has been proven to be easily faked or misinterpreted, and the eyewitness accounts are interesting, but hardly reliable, since people, especially non-experts, often misinterpret wild animals or their signs, and some people just make things up, like Patterson and Gimlin.

Most people don't realize that there are hoards of scientists who study wildlife on all parts of the globe, in even the most remove places, and are all trying to find even the smallest and most obscure new species, and also study minute details of known obscure species in the most remote parts of the planet. The chances of several populations of human sized (or larger) primates existing and going under the radar of all of these scientists and not being totally verified yet is impossible. Maybe 70 or 80 years ago, but not today.

The only time that large mammals are newly discovered today are when they are often indistinguishable from similar species and they are discovered to be a separate species. Another important point is that Bigfoot seems to exist on most parts of the world, including North America, where large primates have not historically lived. The only primates native to N.America are humans, and they migrated here a few ten thousand years ago, so that would mean that bigfoot must have mirrored the migration of the humans at the same time that it was possible? Spreading all throughout North and South America, but still leaving no verifiable fossil evidence? The most recent Gigantopithecus fossils are from a few hundred thousand years ago and are in Asia. Why don't we find Gigantopithecus fossils in North America? Especially any from the past 10,000 years? Do Bigfoot fossils all somehow vanish magically from the past 10,000 or even 1000 years in North America and everywhere else in the world?

Essentially the whole idea that a Bigfoot exists, or has existed after 100,000 years is highly unlikely. The idea that it has existed in the last 1,000 years and still exists today is essentially impossible.

The Luke

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2008, 01:34:04 PM »
liberalisimo,

You must have been bitterly disappointed by:
-the 2003 discovery of the Bili Ape (giant 6' 300 lb chimp) in Congo
-the 2003 discovery of 12,000 year old "Hobbit" fossils (Homo Floresiensis) currently referred to as the cryptid Orang Pendek (obviously still extant)
-the 2007 discovery of 600 year old new variant hominid skeletons dubbed the "Palau Tribe"
-the 2008 discovery of a previously unknown population of 80,000 lowland gorillas in Congo

...you are simply wrong if you think there are armies of scientists exploring the worlds wildernesses. It simply isn't happening.

Happy Googling.



The Luke

liberalismo

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #81 on: November 08, 2008, 02:02:26 PM »
liberalisimo,

You must have been bitterly disappointed by:
-the 2003 discovery of the Bili Ape (giant 6' 300 lb chimp) in Congo
-the 2003 discovery of 12,000 year old "Hobbit" fossils (Homo Floresiensis) currently referred to as the cryptid Orang Pendek (obviously still extant)
-the 2007 discovery of 600 year old new variant hominid skeletons dubbed the "Palau Tribe"
-the 2008 discovery of a previously unknown population of 80,000 lowland gorillas in Congo

...you are simply wrong if you think there are armies of scientists exploring the worlds wildernesses. It simply isn't happening.

Happy Googling.



The Luke


- The Billyape was known to exist as far back as a century. It just wasn't discovered until recently that it was a separate species from the Chimpanzee (and they are rarely 6 feet tall, 5'6" from what I've read mostly). The main reason that real research hasn't been possible is due to the politics of the area. This isn't an issue in most of the parts of the world that the bigfoot is said to exist.
-The 2003 discovery of Homo Floreniensis really does not compare. They were discovered in a cave on an isolated island, basically. The fossils are all over 10,000 years old and there is no evidence that they are still alive.
- I've never heard about the "Palau Tribe". Got a link?
- To be fair, around 100,000 gorilla individuals were estimated based on nest samplings for a large area of land, previously thought to hold lesser numbers. The scientists who came up with this number didn't go and see a huge number of 100,000 gorillas roaming around. Scientists knew that there were gorillas there, but until then, hadn't come up with an accurate number and this recent estimation was much higher than previously thought. To compare this to the idea that there is a population of giant hominids living in areas such as N.America, an unknown species or species thought to have gone extinct 100,000 years ago in Asia mind you, is really incomparable. Also notable is the fact that this area has been rife with war in the previous years and only recently have scientists been able to closely examine it. This isn't the American northwest by any stretch of the imagination.

I do know that there are tons of PHD students and undergraduates stationed in all parts of the globe studying even the most obscure creatures, hoping to become famous by discovering something new. I find it impossible for there to be a population, even a tiny tiny one, living in North America, or even Asia, of unknown large primates without modern bones or a body or even a live individual turning up somewhere. Not even a good quality picture that isn't an obvious fake? Very strange indeed.


The Luke

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #82 on: November 08, 2008, 02:39:05 PM »
I realize we're hijacking the thread here, but who really cares about homeopathy...

Liberalisimo,

Your opinion is one shared by many zoologists, but still not one that reflects the reality on the ground. Field research has taken a backseat to laboratory analysis and paper publication in recent years.

Many, many large mammals go unrecorded... and unwitnessed.

-the snow leopard (although recorded) is only videoed in the wild once every twenty years or so
-the American wolverine has never been videoed or photographed in the wild (despite bodies being recovered)
-vast swathes of North America are completely unrecorded
-Sasquatch bodies are recovered, but it only happens every century or so and hasn't happened since 1894 (the "Jacko" case)
-an animal matching the description of the "Hobbit Man" is seen regularly in Sumatra (orang pendek), even western biologists and travel writers have seen it up close
-the Patterson Footage is genuine, no such footage of the Bili Ape exists
-the Bili Ape might have been "known" as you put it, for a century or so... but no solid evidence existed till 2003
-NO fossil evidence exists for the orangutan; gorilla or chimp (some possible chimp jaws have been found), Giganto fossils DO represent Bigfoot in the fossil record in my opinion

-the footprints aren't easily hoaxed, anatomists have declared them genuine
-the fingerprint evidence is beyond reproach

...The last few Native Americans to hold out from the white man lived close to the white populations they regularly raided without ever being discovered. In fact only one of them was seen, ONCE, at night during the century or so that they evaded capture.

A breeding population of 2,000 to 6,000 Squatch could easily hide out in North America without ever being found... www.bfro.net have all the information you might need (including new thermal videotape).

Recommended reading:
Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science by Dr Jeffrey Meldrum

...there is also a DVD of the same name that demonstrates the authenticity of the Patterson Footage.



The Luke

liberalismo

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #83 on: November 08, 2008, 03:00:56 PM »
I realize we're hijacking the thread here, but who really cares about homeopathy...

Liberalisimo,

Your opinion is one shared by many zoologists, but still not one that reflects the reality on the ground. Field research has taken a backseat to laboratory analysis and paper publication in recent years.

Many, many large mammals go unrecorded... and unwitnessed.

-the snow leopard (although recorded) is only videoed in the wild once every twenty years or so
-the American wolverine has never been videoed or photographed in the wild (despite bodies being recovered)
-vast swathes of North America are completely unrecorded
-Sasquatch bodies are recovered, but it only happens every century or so and hasn't happened since 1894 (the "Jacko" case)
-an animal matching the description of the "Hobbit Man" is seen regularly in Sumatra (orang pendek), even western biologists and travel writers have seen it up close
-the Patterson Footage is genuine, no such footage of the Bili Ape exists
-the Bili Ape might have been "known" as you put it, for a century or so... but no solid evidence existed till 2003
-NO fossil evidence exists for the orangutan; gorilla or chimp (some possible chimp jaws have been found), Giganto fossils DO represent Bigfoot in the fossil record in my opinion

-the footprints aren't easily hoaxed, anatomists have declared them genuine
-the fingerprint evidence is beyond reproach

...The last few Native Americans to hold out from the white man lived close to the white populations they regularly raided without ever being discovered. In fact only one of them was seen, ONCE, at night during the century or so that they evaded capture.

A breeding population of 2,000 to 6,000 Squatch could easily hide out in North America without ever being found... www.bfro.net have all the information you might need (including new thermal videotape).

Recommended reading:
Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science by Dr Jeffrey Meldrum

...there is also a DVD of the same name that demonstrates the authenticity of the Patterson Footage.



The Luke

I'm not going to go through each example you explain and tell you how it doesn't compare to the idea of a Bigfoot living in N.America or even Asia. I don't know where you get the idea that no Chimp or Gorilla fossils have ever been found, because they have. Also, there are plenty of examples of modern bones and bodies of Chimps or Gorillas found who were killed by poachers or died naturally, Zero for Bigfoot. Bigfoot footprints are easy faked, all that one needs to do is take a footprint from a human, morph it around a bit, increase the size using molds and cast it into a 15 or 20 inch replica.

The problem with some scientists is that, when examining things, they tend to assume that it isn't a fake. Some scientists aren't used to being faked and tricked and so they aren't very skeptical in that regard. I know that a lot of scientists who were shown Uri Geller's spoon bending trick were convinced that it was real, since they simply weren't used to being tricked and fooled in such a way. This is what happens with bigfoot prints and whatnot. Scientists who know how easily they are faked can easily tell that they are all faked.

I live smack dab in the middle of the country, right in the woods. I frequently am an outdoors person and spent a lot of time in the wilderness. I have seen all of the large mammals native to my area, including deer, black bear, hogs, etc. It's so coincidental that, with all of the hunters and outdoors people all over the place in N.America, only a few "sightings" of bigfoot have occurred and by people who aren't the most reliable for the most part. Nothing concrete. No bodies. Only fuzzy pictures. Only fuzzy "thermal images"? No real verifiable scientific studies published in peer reviewed journals proving that they exist? Just sketchy anecdotes and blurry pictures?

I'm sorry, I don't buy it. You shouldn't either. All of your examples don't even compare or are simply false. And if you truly believe that the Patterson film is real, even though Gimlin himself has said that it could have been a hoax and some people have come forth admitting to be part of the hoax, you must really be gullible.


BTW, Isn't this a N.American wolverine in the wild?

http://www.arkive.org/media/F43B1065-D262-429E-8931-94228E69AB91/Presentation.Large/photo.jpg

Here is another in California.



http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/news08/08022.html
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/science/03/10/sierra.wolverine.ap/index.html

Necrosis

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #84 on: November 08, 2008, 03:12:20 PM »
bigfoot LMAO.....

if such a creature existed direct evidence that is not disputed would of been discovered, just like the yetti little but mythology and some ridiculous lines of evidence that stretch credulity to its breaking point exist.


The Luke

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #85 on: November 08, 2008, 03:33:18 PM »
I like the gamecamera picture, but I assume it is very recent... using the new 940 nm far-infrared LEDs (most nocturnal animals can see the old near-infrared LEDs). Up until recently (last year or two) there were no images of the American wolverine in the wild (sorry I was a bit behind the times on that factoid).

I believe the picture you posted is from Scandinavia, where long term field research yielded the only quality wildlife footage of wolverines in the wild (there are lots of images of tame/fed wolverines from nature reserves: not the same thing. The Scandinavian research took 17 years).


I admit there are lots of chimp, gorilla and orangutan bones... but I said FOSSILS. Apart from two partial FOSSILIZED jawbones (1.2 and 2.3 million years old respectively) there is NO fossil record for either the chimp; orang or gorilla.

Remember, the gorilla was a fictional creature up until 1847 or so, the mountain gorilla up until 1905 or so.


I understand your position... and am well aware of the problems surrounding Bigfoot/Sasquatch research. But some of your claims are a off base.

The footprints are not easily hoaxed... the fingerprint patterns are almost impossible to fake.

I have met and interviewed Bob Gimlin. The Patterson Footage is genuine... and every expert who has studied it agrees. The few people who have cashed in on the "Patterson Hoax" have never been able to give consistent details or been able to reproduce the film. The BBC spent $100,000 attempting to copy the footage only to end up inadvertently emphasizing the enormous bulk of the actual creature.

Scientists either dismiss or accept the evidence for Bigfoot... what you can't find is a scientist who has objectively studied the evidence and come to the same conclusion as you. That is a product of the manner in which the media treats the subject.

You'd be surprised how many experts in the field firmly believe in the existence of several species of such creatures.

Read up on it, you're clever and scientifically versed... you'll come around.


The Luke

liberalismo

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #86 on: November 09, 2008, 04:47:44 PM »
I like the gamecamera picture, but I assume it is very recent... using the new 940 nm far-infrared LEDs (most nocturnal animals can see the old near-infrared LEDs). Up until recently (last year or two) there were no images of the American wolverine in the wild (sorry I was a bit behind the times on that factoid).

I believe the picture you posted is from Scandinavia, where long term field research yielded the only quality wildlife footage of wolverines in the wild (there are lots of images of tame/fed wolverines from nature reserves: not the same thing. The Scandinavian research took 17 years).


I admit there are lots of chimp, gorilla and orangutan bones... but I said FOSSILS. Apart from two partial FOSSILIZED jawbones (1.2 and 2.3 million years old respectively) there is NO fossil record for either the chimp; orang or gorilla.

Remember, the gorilla was a fictional creature up until 1847 or so, the mountain gorilla up until 1905 or so.


I understand your position... and am well aware of the problems surrounding Bigfoot/Sasquatch research. But some of your claims are a off base.

The footprints are not easily hoaxed... the fingerprint patterns are almost impossible to fake.

I have met and interviewed Bob Gimlin. The Patterson Footage is genuine... and every expert who has studied it agrees. The few people who have cashed in on the "Patterson Hoax" have never been able to give consistent details or been able to reproduce the film. The BBC spent $100,000 attempting to copy the footage only to end up inadvertently emphasizing the enormous bulk of the actual creature.

Scientists either dismiss or accept the evidence for Bigfoot... what you can't find is a scientist who has objectively studied the evidence and come to the same conclusion as you. That is a product of the manner in which the media treats the subject.

You'd be surprised how many experts in the field firmly believe in the existence of several species of such creatures.

Read up on it, you're clever and scientifically versed... you'll come around.


The Luke

Look, We're living in 2008 here, not the 1850s. Essentially all of the world has been explored and there are over 6 billion people on the planet. If bigfoot existed then we'd have found a body by now. This is to be sure of. You claim that "every expert who studied" the Gimlin film agrees that it is genuine? This is false, just like EVERY other claim you've been making. Most of the people who analyzed it were unable to tell much of anything from it, obviously the hoaxers intention, and the people examining it have done it from a perspective not taking into account all of the things that could be done to trick them. They evaluate things like the "stride" of the guy in the suit and claim that no human could possibly walk like that. It's nonsense, of course, and both the guy who designed the suit AND the person who was wearing the suit have come forward.(It's patently obvious that it is a guy in a suit, just looking at the video shows that it's just a guy in a suit, and all of the supposed "muscle movements" are likely due to the horrible quality of the video rather than some intricate design of the costume) Neither had anything to gain from admitting the hoax, and only things to lose, such as the costume designer had a business. Now, you might still want to doubt that it was a hoax, but common sense tells us otherwise. What is more likely, A giant ape-like bipedal creature, never verified by scientists even today, coincidentally walks in front of the camera of two people in the woods, OR it was a hoax. Hmm...

When scientists deal with animals that they think might be extinct, the longer that it takes for them to verify an individual of that species exists, the more likely it becomes that the animal is actually extinct. After a certain point in time, it becomes more and more absurd to continue thinking that the animal is still alive. Scientists KNOW that Wholly Mammoths are extinct, even though there are still people who claim to see them here and there. There are even people who claim to see a Dinosaur in the African Congo and a monster in the Loch Ness. None exist.
As of right now, year 2008, belief in Bigfoot is borderline craziness. If you are cognizant of the scientific data and methods, still believing in a Bigfoot in this day and age is craziness.

If they existed, there would be DOZENS of bodies discovered by now, the scientific community would agree on their existence, we would have a few in captivity, we would know about their behavior, have pictures of them, find evidence ALL OVER the place. This is how it is with even the most rarest and obscure animals that are much much smaller than Bigfoot supposedly is. There is NO evidence for Bigfoot. There are things people claim to be evidence, such as obviously faked footprints, but there is no real sold scientific evidence. No bodies, no captive live individuals, no good photographs or video, no genuine and verifiable body parts or bones, nothing but blurry pictures and faked footprints.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2008, 03:57:24 AM »
Liberalisimo,


I take your points and I respect your "default-skepticims" standpoint... the evidence for the existence of extant hominids, while conclusive in my opinion, is not yet incontrovertible.

However, you are woefully misinformed regarding the current state of the evidence. Much of what you quoted as fact, while common knowledge, is far from the truth.

Far better informed scientists who have studied the evidence, even experts such as David Attenborough; (Dr) Jane Goodall; Dr John Bildernagel; the late Dr Grover Krantz; Dr Wolf Henner Fahrenbach; Dr Jeffrey Meldrum and many others (even Leakey himself) at the cutting edge of anthropological/primatological research have come to the conclusion that these elusive creatures DO exist.

What you can't find is an expert in the field who has studied the evidence and come to the conclusion that NO such creature(s) exist.

For the record:

-the Patterson Footage has NEVER been shown to be a hoax (all the experts who have analysed it have weighed in on the side of the footage depicting a real animal... the public remain unconvinced as they have only ever seen the poor quality fifth generation Betamax copy of the original film used in newscasts)

-dozens of people have claimed to have been involved in the supposed hoax: none of their stories have ever panned out (in fact all have been shown to be lying). Whereas, Patterson, despite being terminal with cancer, spent every penny he made from the sale of the film (and the rest of his life) attempting to get better footage... hardly the actions of a hoaxer. Gimlin has stuck to his story and is still involved in the search for these creatures in his eighties.

-no costume maker has ever come forward with a replica of the supposed costume
(John Chambers of "Planet of the Apes" fame did spread a false rumour that he was behind the Patterson creature, but in his retirement years he gave several interviews admitting that this was merely for advertising purposes; his own opinion was that the footage represented a real animal, as he couldn't have made such a costume himself. I think this case is what you are referring to).

-no one has ever been able to demonstrate a method for reproducing the footprints (gorilla expert Dr Estaban Sarmiento has tried this many times without success). Professor of Anatomy (Idaho State University) Dr Jeffrey Meldrum has written many scientific papers detailing the bone structure and physiology involved (and how it indicates the lineage of such creatures).

-many samples of "unknown primate" hair has been recovered from North America; scientific papers have been written about this by many experts (Henner Fahrenbach for example). Sadly, like gorilla hair, it remains resistant to DNA analysis due to its morphological structure (ie: no medulla)



...but if you believe North America has been fully explored, and that corpses of every type of animal are routinely recovered, then you need to read up a little more.

I'm not a "true-believer" or one prone to magical thinking, I'm a trained scientist (BS in Experimental Physics) and I'm telling you, you are simply wrong in this regard. Read the opinions of the experts in the field.

You don't honestly think hoaxers went to the trouble of adding sweat pores and non-human primate dermatoglyphic (fingerprint) patterns to hundreds of faked footprints found all over North America in the 1950s so that the top primate fingerprint expert (Jimmy Chilcutt, CSI with the Austen Texas Police Department and FBI fingerprint consultant) could analyse the casts and come to the conclusion that they represent a living population of unclassified primates in 2003... do you?

Those same non-human dermatoglyphic patterns are consistent across the entire body of purported Sasquatch/Bigfoot footprint casts... as are the median foot lengths; median heel widths; median foot widths; relations of foot proportions etc etc. So much so that scientific papers have been written (Fahrenbach) detailing the fact that every possible statistical tool applied to Bigfoot evidence SUPPORTS the existence of a (small) breeding population.

The hoax explanation is far more fantastic than the simple truth; there is a clandestine hominid extant in North America.


The Luke
PS... I think we're perpetrating a thread hijack here.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2008, 04:26:48 AM »
Liberalisimo,


I take your points and I respect your "default-skepticims" standpoint... the evidence for the existence of extant hominids, while conclusive in my opinion, is not yet incontrovertible.

However, you are woefully misinformed regarding the current state of the evidence. Much of what you quoted as fact, while common knowledge, is far from the truth.

Far better informed scientists who have studied the evidence, even experts such as David Attenborough; (Dr) Jane Goodall; Dr John Bildernagel; the late Dr Grover Krantz; Dr Wolf Henner Fahrenbach; Dr Jeffrey Meldrum and many others (even Leakey himself) at the cutting edge of anthropological/primatological research have come to the conclusion that these elusive creatures DO exist.

What you can't find is an expert in the field who has studied the evidence and come to the conclusion that NO such creature(s) exist.

For the record:

-the Patterson Footage has NEVER been shown to be a hoax (all the experts who have analysed it have weighed in on the side of the footage depicting a real animal... the public remain unconvinced as they have only ever seen the poor quality fifth generation Betamax copy of the original film used in newscasts)

-dozens of people have claimed to have been involved in the supposed hoax: none of their stories have ever panned out (in fact all have been shown to be lying). Whereas, Patterson, despite being terminal with cancer, spent every penny he made from the sale of the film (and the rest of his life) attempting to get better footage... hardly the actions of a hoaxer. Gimlin has stuck to his story and is still involved in the search for these creatures in his eighties.

-no costume maker has ever come forward with a replica of the supposed costume
(John Chambers of "Planet of the Apes" fame did spread a false rumour that he was behind the Patterson creature, but in his retirement years he gave several interviews admitting that this was merely for advertising purposes; his own opinion was that the footage represented a real animal, as he couldn't have made such a costume himself. I think this case is what you are referring to).

-no one has ever been able to demonstrate a method for reproducing the footprints (gorilla expert Dr Estaban Sarmiento has tried this many times without success). Professor of Anatomy (Idaho State University) Dr Jeffrey Meldrum has written many scientific papers detailing the bone structure and physiology involved (and how it indicates the lineage of such creatures).

-many samples of "unknown primate" hair has been recovered from North America; scientific papers have been written about this by many experts (Henner Fahrenbach for example). Sadly, like gorilla hair, it remains resistant to DNA analysis due to its morphological structure (ie: no medulla)



...but if you believe North America has been fully explored, and that corpses of every type of animal are routinely recovered, then you need to read up a little more.

I'm not a "true-believer" or one prone to magical thinking, I'm a trained scientist (BS in Experimental Physics) and I'm telling you, you are simply wrong in this regard. Read the opinions of the experts in the field.

You don't honestly think hoaxers went to the trouble of adding sweat pores and non-human primate dermatoglyphic (fingerprint) patterns to hundreds of faked footprints found all over North America in the 1950s so that the top primate fingerprint expert (Jimmy Chilcutt, CSI with the Austen Texas Police Department and FBI fingerprint consultant) could analyse the casts and come to the conclusion that they represent a living population of unclassified primates in 2003... do you?

Those same non-human dermatoglyphic patterns are consistent across the entire body of purported Sasquatch/Bigfoot footprint casts... as are the median foot lengths; median heel widths; median foot widths; relations of foot proportions etc etc. So much so that scientific papers have been written (Fahrenbach) detailing the fact that every possible statistical tool applied to Bigfoot evidence SUPPORTS the existence of a (small) breeding population.

The hoax explanation is far more fantastic than the simple truth; there is a clandestine hominid extant in North America.


The Luke
PS... I think we're perpetrating a thread hijack here.

I will highjack the thread for you. Do you like big jugs on slim Asian bodies? ;D
I hate the State.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #89 on: November 10, 2008, 10:17:27 AM »
Liberalisimo,


I take your points and I respect your "default-skepticims" standpoint... the evidence for the existence of extant hominids, while conclusive in my opinion, is not yet incontrovertible.

However, you are woefully misinformed regarding the current state of the evidence. Much of what you quoted as fact, while common knowledge, is far from the truth.

Far better informed scientists who have studied the evidence, even experts such as David Attenborough; (Dr) Jane Goodall; Dr John Bildernagel; the late Dr Grover Krantz; Dr Wolf Henner Fahrenbach; Dr Jeffrey Meldrum and many others (even Leakey himself) at the cutting edge of anthropological/primatological research have come to the conclusion that these elusive creatures DO exist.

What you can't find is an expert in the field who has studied the evidence and come to the conclusion that NO such creature(s) exist.

For the record:

-the Patterson Footage has NEVER been shown to be a hoax (all the experts who have analysed it have weighed in on the side of the footage depicting a real animal... the public remain unconvinced as they have only ever seen the poor quality fifth generation Betamax copy of the original film used in newscasts)

-dozens of people have claimed to have been involved in the supposed hoax: none of their stories have ever panned out (in fact all have been shown to be lying). Whereas, Patterson, despite being terminal with cancer, spent every penny he made from the sale of the film (and the rest of his life) attempting to get better footage... hardly the actions of a hoaxer. Gimlin has stuck to his story and is still involved in the search for these creatures in his eighties.

-no costume maker has ever come forward with a replica of the supposed costume
(John Chambers of "Planet of the Apes" fame did spread a false rumour that he was behind the Patterson creature, but in his retirement years he gave several interviews admitting that this was merely for advertising purposes; his own opinion was that the footage represented a real animal, as he couldn't have made such a costume himself. I think this case is what you are referring to).

-no one has ever been able to demonstrate a method for reproducing the footprints (gorilla expert Dr Estaban Sarmiento has tried this many times without success). Professor of Anatomy (Idaho State University) Dr Jeffrey Meldrum has written many scientific papers detailing the bone structure and physiology involved (and how it indicates the lineage of such creatures).

-many samples of "unknown primate" hair has been recovered from North America; scientific papers have been written about this by many experts (Henner Fahrenbach for example). Sadly, like gorilla hair, it remains resistant to DNA analysis due to its morphological structure (ie: no medulla)



...but if you believe North America has been fully explored, and that corpses of every type of animal are routinely recovered, then you need to read up a little more.

I'm not a "true-believer" or one prone to magical thinking, I'm a trained scientist (BS in Experimental Physics) and I'm telling you, you are simply wrong in this regard. Read the opinions of the experts in the field.

You don't honestly think hoaxers went to the trouble of adding sweat pores and non-human primate dermatoglyphic (fingerprint) patterns to hundreds of faked footprints found all over North America in the 1950s so that the top primate fingerprint expert (Jimmy Chilcutt, CSI with the Austen Texas Police Department and FBI fingerprint consultant) could analyse the casts and come to the conclusion that they represent a living population of unclassified primates in 2003... do you?

Those same non-human dermatoglyphic patterns are consistent across the entire body of purported Sasquatch/Bigfoot footprint casts... as are the median foot lengths; median heel widths; median foot widths; relations of foot proportions etc etc. So much so that scientific papers have been written (Fahrenbach) detailing the fact that every possible statistical tool applied to Bigfoot evidence SUPPORTS the existence of a (small) breeding population.

The hoax explanation is far more fantastic than the simple truth; there is a clandestine hominid extant in North America.


The Luke
PS... I think we're perpetrating a thread hijack here.

present your evidence for the existence of bigfoot.

The Luke

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #90 on: November 10, 2008, 02:13:41 PM »
present your evidence for the existence of bigfoot.

...haven't you been reading my posts?

I've explained myself fully, named the relevant academics... I even gave a reading list.


The Luke

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #91 on: November 10, 2008, 07:16:08 PM »
Liberalisimo,


I take your points and I respect your "default-skepticims" standpoint... the evidence for the existence of extant hominids, while conclusive in my opinion, is not yet incontrovertible.

However, you are woefully misinformed regarding the current state of the evidence. Much of what you quoted as fact, while common knowledge, is far from the truth.

Far better informed scientists who have studied the evidence, even experts such as David Attenborough; (Dr) Jane Goodall; Dr John Bildernagel; the late Dr Grover Krantz; Dr Wolf Henner Fahrenbach; Dr Jeffrey Meldrum and many others (even Leakey himself) at the cutting edge of anthropological/primatological research have come to the conclusion that these elusive creatures DO exist.

What you can't find is an expert in the field who has studied the evidence and come to the conclusion that NO such creature(s) exist.

For the record:

-the Patterson Footage has NEVER been shown to be a hoax (all the experts who have analysed it have weighed in on the side of the footage depicting a real animal... the public remain unconvinced as they have only ever seen the poor quality fifth generation Betamax copy of the original film used in newscasts)

-dozens of people have claimed to have been involved in the supposed hoax: none of their stories have ever panned out (in fact all have been shown to be lying). Whereas, Patterson, despite being terminal with cancer, spent every penny he made from the sale of the film (and the rest of his life) attempting to get better footage... hardly the actions of a hoaxer. Gimlin has stuck to his story and is still involved in the search for these creatures in his eighties.

-no costume maker has ever come forward with a replica of the supposed costume
(John Chambers of "Planet of the Apes" fame did spread a false rumour that he was behind the Patterson creature, but in his retirement years he gave several interviews admitting that this was merely for advertising purposes; his own opinion was that the footage represented a real animal, as he couldn't have made such a costume himself. I think this case is what you are referring to).

-no one has ever been able to demonstrate a method for reproducing the footprints (gorilla expert Dr Estaban Sarmiento has tried this many times without success). Professor of Anatomy (Idaho State University) Dr Jeffrey Meldrum has written many scientific papers detailing the bone structure and physiology involved (and how it indicates the lineage of such creatures).

-many samples of "unknown primate" hair has been recovered from North America; scientific papers have been written about this by many experts (Henner Fahrenbach for example). Sadly, like gorilla hair, it remains resistant to DNA analysis due to its morphological structure (ie: no medulla)



...but if you believe North America has been fully explored, and that corpses of every type of animal are routinely recovered, then you need to read up a little more.

I'm not a "true-believer" or one prone to magical thinking, I'm a trained scientist (BS in Experimental Physics) and I'm telling you, you are simply wrong in this regard. Read the opinions of the experts in the field.

You don't honestly think hoaxers went to the trouble of adding sweat pores and non-human primate dermatoglyphic (fingerprint) patterns to hundreds of faked footprints found all over North America in the 1950s so that the top primate fingerprint expert (Jimmy Chilcutt, CSI with the Austen Texas Police Department and FBI fingerprint consultant) could analyse the casts and come to the conclusion that they represent a living population of unclassified primates in 2003... do you?

Those same non-human dermatoglyphic patterns are consistent across the entire body of purported Sasquatch/Bigfoot footprint casts... as are the median foot lengths; median heel widths; median foot widths; relations of foot proportions etc etc. So much so that scientific papers have been written (Fahrenbach) detailing the fact that every possible statistical tool applied to Bigfoot evidence SUPPORTS the existence of a (small) breeding population.

The hoax explanation is far more fantastic than the simple truth; there is a clandestine hominid extant in North America.


The Luke
PS... I think we're perpetrating a thread hijack here.

1. Most of the scientists who study the evidence are doing so out of their own field and don't actually study anything but hoaxed footprints and flimsy anecdotes.

2. You make far too many claims without citing evidence. Where is the proof that the two people I previously cited as being involved in the Patterson hoax were lying? It's much more likely that they weren't.

3. The costume was just some basic thing, much less complex than Star Wars costumes. The distance and low quality make it seem otherwise.

4. Any idiot can make bigfoot footprints. It just requires casting a human footprint, and then recasting it over and over until it is the desired size, after deforming it all up to make it seem non-human.
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2006-09/bigfoot.html

5. "Unknown primate hair"? Try again. Most hair samples were proven fakes, the only samples that you claim of "unknown origin" were simply too degraded to determine or the scientists failed to determine the species for some reason. This proves nothing.


People tend to OVER analyze things. Replicating and increasing the size of a human footprint and then twisting it all around to change the attributes would also change the fingerprints of it. Easy as 123. Who in the heck would rely on someone like Jimmy Chilcutt, a CSI guy, not a hominid anatomy expert, to determine that some footprint is of non-human primate origin? Crazyness!

If you really believe that it is more likely that a giant ape, never proven by science after hundreds of years, is roaming N.America or Asia in populations in the area of several hundred than it simply being bad characterizations and blatant hoaxes, then I feel sorry for you. I really do.

I don't feel like debating this anymore, it's going nowhere and you clearly have the mentality of a True Believer. The evidence for a Bigfoot is sketchy and much much more obviously faked. Anyone who still thinks that populations of several hundred giant bipedal apes are roaming around N. America, especially when scientists are able to tag and categorize even the rarest mammals and determine their populations, and also without a body ever being found, no bones, nothing but fake footprints and comically blurry pictures and video, is living in a dream world.


The Luke

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #92 on: November 10, 2008, 08:30:28 PM »
Again, you are woefully uninformed...

1. Most of the scientists who study the evidence are doing so out of their own field and don't actually study anything but hoaxed footprints and flimsy anecdotes.
...(Dr) Jane Goodall is a primatologist (chimp expert).
...Dr Jeff Meldrum is a Professor of Anatomy, specialising in foot structure as it relates to the evolution of bipedalism among hominids.
...Dr Grover Krantz was a career academic (WA Uni).
I personally know of one retired academic who has seen a Sasquatch in person.

They are working in their respective fields... fingerprints; scat; fossils (Giganto); video and audio recordings constitute the evidence so far. It's hardly a study in folklore.

2. You make far too many claims without citing evidence. Where is the proof that the two people I previously cited as being involved in the Patterson hoax were lying? It's much more likely that they weren't.
...to date, about a dozen people have come forward claiming to be the person in the suit. Yet no one has been able to reproduce the suit. Or give a consistent story. As I previously menioned, the BBC spent $100,000 attempting such a suit yet still couldn't do it.

You need to carefully re-read my previous posts.

Bob Heironimous (the latest claimant) is 5'9''... the "Patty" creature was 6'8'' to 7'2'' and 38'-40' across the shoulders (forensically measured on site by several experts and confirmed by reproduction of the film with a 6'5'' human subject retracing the path). It's musculature is consistent with a gorilla variant (barrel chest, underdeveloped pectoralis minors; high mounted trapezius; low-attaching bicep; torn outer quadricep head on the right leg (more prevalent in females); thick, high mounted glutes and overdeveloped erector spinae muscles.

I've also listed books and videos and named the respective academics involved. Your criticism is patently faulty.

3. The costume was just some basic thing, much less complex than Star Wars costumes. The distance and low quality make it seem otherwise.
...I give lectures (academics sometimes attend) in which a high resolution copy of the film always silences such claims. The musculature is starkly apparent in the seldom seen second section of the film, where the creature walks away behind the flood detritus in the river bed.

4. Any idiot can make bigfoot footprints. It just requires casting a human footprint, and then recasting it over and over until it is the desired size, after deforming it all up to make it seem non-human.
http://www.csicop.org/sb/2006-09/bigfoot.html
...there is an open reward for anyone who can do so. Anatomists have written papers detailing the consistently non-human morphology of these prints, which is self consistent (even over time) for the species.

No one has ever been able to fake the prints, even though many engineers and skeptical scientists tried. Dr Jeff Meldrum has also discovered hand prints, body prints and climbing imprints (on slopes). He too was a skeptic when he began his investigations. He dedicates a chapter of his book to faked prints; read it.

5. "Unknown primate hair"? Try again. Most hair samples were proven fakes, the only samples that you claim of "unknown origin" were simply too degraded to determine or the scientists failed to determine the species for some reason. This proves nothing.
...the purported "Sasquatch" hair is again morphologically consistent and trichologists consider it intermediary between human and chimp hair.

People tend to OVER analyze things. Replicating and increasing the size of a human footprint and then twisting it all around to change the attributes would also change the fingerprints of it. Easy as 123. Who in the heck would rely on someone like Jimmy Chilcutt, a CSI guy, not a hominid anatomy expert, to determine that some footprint is of non-human primate origin? Crazyness!

The technique you suggest does not work, gorilla expert Dr Esteban Sarmiento (a Bigfoot skeptic) has tried it several times.

...Jimmy Chilcutt is a fingerprint consultant with the FBI too. He is also considered one of the worlds preeminent experts on primate dermatoglyphics (fingerprints) and has pioneered efforts to distinguish racial/gender identifications through fingerprints in humans (which he did by analysing all sorts of primate dermatoglyphics).

Chilcutt was also a skeptic, but was won over by the distinctively non-human pattern evidenced by the casts (transverse with longitudinal lateral ridges rather than plain transverse, as seen in humans). The dermtoglyphic pattern is consistent only with a long-toed exceedingly heavy, flat footed (mid-tarsl break) bipedal creature/hominid.

His analysis was so thorough that he was able to identify six distinct individuals responsible for the tracks that caused the 1958 Californian Bigfoot Flap. As he was working from randomly numbered casts, his identification of two different sized tracks as belonging to the same individual (identical scar patters and sweat pores), further convinced him when the a subsequent data check confirmed the smaller print predated the larger one by some twenty years and came from the same vicinity.

He literally grouped casts from all over the US and Canada together (as coming from one animal) in a double-blind pattern, only later to be fully vindicated by the geographic locations the prints came from.



Liberlisimo, if you don't want to discuss this any further, that is fine with me. But please don't insult those other reading by criticizing my judgement or knowledge of the subject.

It is obvious to everyone that your position is one of blind dismissal.

Remember, it's only been five years since a population of giant chimps was discovered in the Congo (the Bili Ape). Previous to the reporting of the late Shelley Williams the "Bondo Mystery Ape" was considered a mythical creature. Until 2003, there were no bodies; no fossils; no pictures; no video; no hair... only rumours, rumours dismissed by close-minded people like you.

I am a Bigfoot acceptor more so than a Bigfoot believer... I have studied the evidence in detail and without any other prejudice than an analytical eye.


The Luke

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #93 on: November 10, 2008, 08:38:49 PM »
Again, you are woefully uninformed...
...(Dr) Jane Goodall is a primatologist (chimp expert).
...Dr Jeff Meldrum is a Professor of Anatomy, specialising in foot structure as it relates to the evolution of bipedalism among hominids.
...Dr Grover Krantz was a career academic (WA Uni).
I personally know of one retired academic who has seen a Sasquatch in person.

They are working in their respective fields... fingerprints; scat; fossils (Giganto); video and audio recordings constitute the evidence so far. It's hardly a study in folklore.
...to date, about a dozen people have come forward claiming to be the person in the suit. Yet no one has been able to reproduce the suit. Or give a consistent story. As I previously menioned, the BBC spent $100,000 attempting such a suit yet still couldn't do it.

You need to carefully re-read my previous posts.

Bob Heironimous (the latest claimant) is 5'9''... the "Patty" creature was 6'8'' to 7'2'' and 38'-40' across the shoulders (forensically measured on site by several experts and confirmed by reproduction of the film with a 6'5'' human subject retracing the path). It's musculature is consistent with a gorilla variant (barrel chest, underdeveloped pectoralis minors; high mounted trapezius; low-attaching bicep; torn outer quadricep head on the right leg (more prevalent in females); thick, high mounted glutes and overdeveloped erector spinae muscles.

I've also listed books and videos and named the respective academics involved. Your criticism is patently faulty.
...I give lectures (academics sometimes attend) in which a high resolution copy of the film always silences such claims. The musculature is starkly apparent in the seldom seen second section of the film, where the creature walks away behind the flood detritus in the river bed.
...there is an open reward for anyone who can do so. Anatomists have written papers detailing the consistently non-human morphology of these prints, which is self consistent (even over time) for the species.

No one has ever been able to fake the prints, even though many engineers and skeptical scientists tried. Dr Jeff Meldrum has also discovered hand prints, body prints and climbing imprints (on slopes). He too was a skeptic when he began his investigations. He dedicates a chapter of his book to faked prints; read it.
...the purported "Sasquatch" hair is again morphologically consistent and trichologists consider it intermediary between human and chimp hair.

The technique you suggest does not work, gorilla expert Dr Esteban Sarmiento (a Bigfoot skeptic) has tried it several times.

...Jimmy Chilcutt is a fingerprint consultant with the FBI too. He is also considered one of the worlds preeminent experts on primate dermatoglyphics (fingerprints) and has pioneered efforts to distinguish racial/gender identifications through fingerprints in humans (which he did by analysing all sorts of primate dermatoglyphics).

Chilcutt was also a skeptic, but was won over by the distinctively non-human pattern evidenced by the casts (transverse with longitudinal lateral ridges rather than plain transverse, as seen in humans). The dermtoglyphic pattern is consistent only with a long-toed exceedingly heavy, flat footed (mid-tarsl break) bipedal creature/hominid.

His analysis was so thorough that he was able to identify six distinct individuals responsible for the tracks that caused the 1958 Californian Bigfoot Flap. As he was working from randomly numbered casts, his identification of two different sized tracks as belonging to the same individual (identical scar patters and sweat pores), further convinced him when the a subsequent data check confirmed the smaller print predated the larger one by some twenty years and came from the same vicinity.

He literally grouped casts from all over the US and Canada together (as coming from one animal) in a double-blind pattern, only later to be fully vindicated by the geographic locations the prints came from.



Liberlisimo, if you don't want to discuss this any further, that is fine with me. But please don't insult those other reading by criticizing my judgement or knowledge of the subject.

It is obvious to everyone that your position is one of blind dismissal.

Remember, it's only been five years since a population of giant chimps was discovered in the Congo (the Bili Ape). Previous to the reporting of the late Shelley Williams the "Bondo Mystery Ape" was considered a mythical creature. Until 2003, there were no bodies; no fossils; no pictures; no video; no hair... only rumours, rumours dismissed by close-minded people like you.

I am a Bigfoot acceptor more so than a Bigfoot believer... I have studied the evidence in detail and without any other prejudice than an analytical eye.


The Luke

Your batshit crazy. are you referring to the patterson video of the person walking in the river bed? you cannot see the erector spinae as you indicate, if so post the video, you cannot clearly see bicep attachment nor the pectoralis minor. I mean i know human anatomy quite well and the pec minor is situated under the major, along with the fur i doubt you can see this shit as clearly as you claim.

Again the paucity of your evidence is underwhelming. If such a creature existed much better evidence would have been captured by now, this creature is also not excepted by the majority of scientists, just a small minority.

I cant beleive you give talks on this shit, post the better quality video if you will, i wouldnt mind seeing it.

liberalismo

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #94 on: November 10, 2008, 10:02:06 PM »
Luke, I don't think I'll accomplish by arguing it any longer, except a migraine. All I can say is that day after day, when no big foots are found, your belief gets more and more crazy. I'm anything but close minded, my mind is open to the proof, and I've seen none. I know you probably have some invested monetary interest (or at least emotional) in this mumbo-jumbo, and it's been said that it's impossible to convince a man of a fact if his income relies on denying that fact. If it were truly important, I would be more persistent, but who gets hurt if a few crazies want to believe in giant ape-men living in the woods? Probably no one.

So I'm done.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Believes in Intelligent Design??
« Reply #95 on: November 11, 2008, 10:34:40 AM »
Necrosis,

I'm sorry, but I can't post the video... the copy I have is about 2 gigs.

I'd recommend you get yourself a copy of Doug Hajicek's excellent video "Sasquatch: Legend Meets Science", a high quality film-to-digital version of the Patterson Video is available in the extras. The footage most people have seen is fifth (or more) generation betamax/VHS copy of a copy of a copy etc. That is totally underwhelming, and the newsfootage archives usually snip the footage at frame 352 (the iconic "Patty" sidestep image). However, the unedited footage clearly shows the creature walking away; the rotation of the shoulders; flexion of the arms and shoulder width all preclude the possibility of a hoax. Best estimates put Patty in the 600 lb range; all big boned muscle... and she's at least 7'2'' and 38'' across the shoulders.

Meldrum's companion book to the above mentioned documentary deals with the Patterson Footage in excruciating detail, addressing all the dismissals and hoax claims.


Liberalisimo,

Your argument is one of default dismissal... if you had taken the time to research the available evidence your opinion would change.

For the record, Sasquatch bodies (and live specimens) are recovered occasionally... it's just that the last recovered body (live) was the "Jacko" case of 1894. Similar to the situation with the Bili Ape prior to 2003; the mountain gorilla prior to 1905; the lowland gorilla prior to 1847 etc etc.

It is foolish to think that a rare, reclusive population of animals is either rediscovered every few years or simply doesn't exist. It's a spectrum... the snow leopard was believed by many to be extinct, after seven years of trying it was finally filmed in the wild for the first time ever by the BBC in 2006... the cloud leopard was only photographed live for the first time ever in 2008 (by game camera)... the Sumatran tiger is seldom if ever seen (and even more rarely photographed) despite living near humans.


Let me give you an example:
During the 1970's biologists stationed aboard Japanese whaling ships noticed that some of the sperm whales being slaughtered on the decks were speckled with rather large squid sucker marks. Analysis of these sucker marks showed they fell into two camps; roughly one inch diameter and another population of sucker marks centered on 2.5'' diameter. Aware of the direct ratio between sucker diameter and body length which holds for all species of squid, some of the braver scientists posited that the sucker marks indicated the existence of two, distinct as-yet-unknown species of squid:
-the giant squid: 20 to 60 feet in length
-the colossal squid: 100 to (possibly) 300 feet in length

Some dismissed this evidence (citing the lack of bodies washed ashore; caught in dragnets etc), as you guys are doing here with the Sasquatch... while those who examined the ample evidence came to agree with the conclusions; legendary monster squid exist.

Subsequently, enormous squid beaks (again, two distinct sizes) were recovered from the stomachs of sperm whales.

Again, some dismissed this evidence... while the more open minded were won over.


During the early eighties several specimen of 20-30 foot squid washed ashore from deep waters... some saw this as vindication, others dismissed even this evidence by claiming the bodies represented adult mutant known squid species rather than juvenile monster squid (the bodies were mostly immature).

In the last ten years the giant squid has been repeatedly videoed (30+ foot long) and recently a tentacle was pulled from a live specimen.

Who was right? The reactionary naysayers or the interested researchers? What about the legendary reports of the Kracken multi-limbed sea monster attacking ships? Can they still be dismissed as fanciful exaggerations?


So now both species are accepted by science, despite the fact that the monstrous colossal squid has never been videoed; never been captured; no body has ever been recovered; no DNA has ever been sequenced.
The creatures existence is vouched for SOLELY by its sucker marks... tantamount to classifying a cryptid merely from footprints.

Is that so much different than the Sasquatch situation?


The Luke