Author Topic: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?  (Read 14390 times)

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #150 on: November 11, 2008, 07:32:29 PM »
Change means change.  Amend, remove, alter, whatever you want to call it.  

Of course prop 8 alters the constitution.  That's precisely what the proposition says.

I'm not sure you understand that state and federal constitutions can be changed (altered, whatever) by popular vote (both simple majority and super majority depending on the issue and constitution involved).   

Add and Subtract are both change but they have very different meanings

you can not subtract rights without a revision of the constitution and that cannot be done by a simple majority vote


Tre

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16548
  • "What you don't have is a career."
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #151 on: November 12, 2008, 11:28:45 AM »
But, it appears they prefer soft targets, as a white suburban Mormon church is far easier to attack, than black churches, Latino churches, and the govenor of the Golden state.

You're such a pussy.

There, I attacked you.

Happy now, bitch?

Tre

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16548
  • "What you don't have is a career."
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #152 on: November 12, 2008, 11:30:52 AM »
Wasn't Arnold against prop 8?

Correct.


Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #153 on: November 12, 2008, 11:36:30 AM »
I think there is a good chance that Prop 8 will be overturned by the CA Supreme Court.

We are unique in this state that the right for gays to be married was recognized prior to the passage of the ammendment.

Tre

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16548
  • "What you don't have is a career."
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #154 on: November 12, 2008, 11:37:51 AM »
Well, it appears that homosexuals can do the same, if you will, as lamented by a black lesbian (in an Op-Ed from the LA Times), who claims that white gays are quick to hit blacks with racist comments.

From "No-on-8's White Bias":

The first problem with Proposition 8 was the issue of marriage itself. The white gay community never successfully communicated to blacks why it should matter to us above everything else -- not just to me as a lesbian but to blacks generally. The way I see it, the white gay community is banging its head against the glass ceiling of a room called equality, believing that a breakthrough on marriage will bestow on it parity with heterosexuals. But the right to marry does nothing to address the problems faced by both black gays and black straights. Does someone who is homeless or suffering from HIV but has no healthcare, or newly out of prison and unemployed, really benefit from the right to marry someone of the same sex?

Second is the issue of civil rights. White gays often wonder aloud why blacks, of all people, won't support their civil rights. There is a real misunderstanding by the white gay community about the term. Proponents of gay marriage fling it around as if it is a one-size-fits-all catchphrase for issues of fairness.

But the black civil rights movement was essentially born out of and driven by the black church; social justice and religion are inextricably intertwined in the black community. To many blacks, civil rights are grounded in Christianity -- not something separate and apart from religion but synonymous with it. To the extent that the issue of gay marriage seemed to be pitted against the church, it was going to be a losing battle in my community.....

There's nothing a white gay person can tell me when it comes to how I as a black lesbian should talk to my community about this issue. If and when I choose to, I know how to say what needs to be said. Many black gays just haven't been convinced that this movement for marriage is about anything more than the white gays who fund it (and who, we often find, are just as racist and clueless when it comes to blacks as they claim blacks are homophobic).


http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-cannick8-2008nov08,0,3295255.story


I read this chick's piece the other day.  She's so ignorant and obviously has a major chip on her shoulder.

The supporters of the measure used a very effective divide and conquer strategy and once again, Blacks fell for it in large numbers.

She can puff her chest out all she wants to, but at the end of the day, she's still the White man's pawn, no matter how she tries to spin it (her position on this issue).



Buffgeek

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 712
  • I love white women!
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #155 on: November 12, 2008, 11:38:05 AM »
I think there is a good chance that Prop 8 will be overturned by the CA Supreme Court.

We are unique in this state that the right for gays to be married was recognized prior to the passage of the ammendment.

Good ol' Cali.   Legislating from the bench FTL!

big L dawg

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5729
  • i always tell the truth even when i lie...
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #156 on: November 12, 2008, 11:39:24 AM »
I know very few truly happily married people.the one's I do know that are happy are very early into there marriage.so.......why not let gay people be just as miserable?
DAWG

Tre

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16548
  • "What you don't have is a career."
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #157 on: November 12, 2008, 11:40:49 AM »
I think there is a good chance that Prop 8 will be overturned by the CA Supreme Court.

We are unique in this state that the right for gays to be married was recognized prior to the passage of the ammendment.

You are correct, but the chances of it (gay marriage) being passed by ballot in 2009 is pretty good, based on the numbers.  And I think we could actually get that done faster than proving Prop 8's unconstitutionality in the courts, a process that will take years.

 


Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #158 on: November 12, 2008, 12:22:25 PM »
You are correct, but the chances of it (gay marriage) being passed by ballot in 2009 is pretty good, based on the numbers.  And I think we could actually get that done faster than proving Prop 8's unconstitutionality in the courts, a process that will take years.


When Arnold vetoed this the last time I believe he said it was up to the CA Supreme Court.  Now that they've made their decision and he has come out against Prop 8 there might be a better chance for the legislature to get this passed. 

timfogarty

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7108
  • @fogartyTim on twitter
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #159 on: November 12, 2008, 12:26:48 PM »
Good ol' Cali.   Legislating from the bench FTL!

we live in a Constitutional Republic.  The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.  The California Constitution is the supreme law of the state.  As defined in those constitutions, judges are suppose to make sure that laws passed by the legislature or by the people don't violate the constitution.  If they overturn a law that they find unconstitutional, they're not legislating from the bench, they're doing their job.

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #160 on: November 12, 2008, 12:32:33 PM »
we live in a Constitutional Republic.  The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.  The California Constitution is the supreme law of the state.  As defined in those constitutions, judges are suppose to make sure that laws passed by the legislature or by the people don't violate the constitution.  If they overturn a law that they find unconstitutional, they're not legislating from the bench, they're doing their job.

yeah - I was going to respond and then figured why bother.

This is a pretty good article and even though the author claims this is all 7th grade civics I don't recall learning this stuff in middle school. It's worth 5 minutes of time for anyone who cares to catch up on what we were supposedly taught in the seventh grade:  http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/05/22/wittes/
 

timfogarty

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7108
  • @fogartyTim on twitter
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #161 on: November 12, 2008, 12:45:55 PM »
When Arnold vetoed this the last time I believe he said it was up to the CA Supreme Court.  Now that they've made their decision and he has come out against Prop 8 there might be a better chance for the legislature to get this passed. 

as you said, the legislature had already passed it, twice.  it was Arnold who vetoed it both times.   passing it again and signing it probably wouldn't mean anything.  Either Prop 8 was a valid constitutional amendment and would require another vote by the people to overturn, or it was not (in that it should have been 2/3 vote by legislature and 2/3 vote by people) and therefore the Supreme Court's ruling still stands.

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #162 on: November 12, 2008, 12:59:35 PM »
as you said, the legislature had already passed it, twice.  it was Arnold who vetoed it both times.   passing it again and signing it probably wouldn't mean anything.  Either Prop 8 was a valid constitutional amendment and would require another vote by the people to overturn, or it was not (in that it should have been 2/3 vote by legislature and 2/3 vote by people) and therefore the Supreme Court's ruling still stands.

Arnold words the last time he vetoed it were that he wanted to Court to make the decision.  That might be the difference.  Now that Prop 8 has passed that might not be the right approach but I do think Prop 8 will face a lot of legal challenges. 

Buffgeek

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 712
  • I love white women!
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #163 on: November 12, 2008, 12:59:59 PM »
we live in a Constitutional Republic.  The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.  The California Constitution is the supreme law of the state.  As defined in those constitutions, judges are suppose to make sure that laws passed by the legislature or by the people don't violate the constitution.  If they overturn a law that they find unconstitutional, they're not legislating from the bench, they're doing their job.

I understand that, I am just curious where in the constitution is explicity stated that two men could legally marry? I know the Califonria supreme court ruled to recognized these marriages, but isnt it also part of our process that we may amend our constitution if warrented?

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #164 on: November 12, 2008, 01:02:46 PM »
I understand that, I am just curious where in the constitution is explicity stated that two men could legally marry? I know the Califonria supreme court ruled to recognized these marriages, but isnt it also part of our process that we may amend our constitution if warrented?

where does it say ANYTHING explicit about marriage?

timfogarty

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7108
  • @fogartyTim on twitter
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #165 on: November 12, 2008, 01:26:35 PM »
I understand that, I am just curious where in the constitution is explicity stated that two men could legally marry?

equal protection clause.  CASC ruled that since the state offers marriage licenses to opposite sex couples, they must also offer it to same sex couples.

Quote
I know the Califonria supreme court ruled to recognized these marriages, but isnt it also part of our process that we may amend our constitution if warrented?

1) minor changes to the constitution can be changed by the ballot initiative with a 50%+1 vote. core changes to the constitution require 2/3 vote of the legislature followed by 2/3 vote of the people.    is this a minor change or a core change.

2) the California Constitution now has two conflicting clauses:  gays must be treated the same as straights; gays cannot be given marriage licenses.  the only way you can meet both clauses is to not offer marriage licenses to straights either.

Buffgeek

  • Getbig III
  • ***
  • Posts: 712
  • I love white women!
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #166 on: November 12, 2008, 02:10:03 PM »
equal protection clause.  CASC ruled that since the state offers marriage licenses to opposite sex couples, they must also offer it to same sex couples.

1) minor changes to the constitution can be changed by the ballot initiative with a 50%+1 vote. core changes to the constitution require 2/3 vote of the legislature followed by 2/3 vote of the people.    is this a minor change or a core change.

2) the California Constitution now has two conflicting clauses:  gays must be treated the same as straights; gays cannot be given marriage licenses.  the only way you can meet both clauses is to not offer marriage licenses to straights either.

Wow what a cluster.......

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19327
  • Getbig!
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #167 on: November 12, 2008, 03:39:02 PM »
we live in a Constitutional Republic.  The US Constitution is the supreme law of the land.  The California Constitution is the supreme law of the state.  As defined in those constitutions, judges are suppose to make sure that laws passed by the legislature or by the people don't violate the constitution.  If they overturn a law that they find unconstitutional, they're not legislating from the bench, they're doing their job.

Exactly!!!

Per the federal's Court dismissal (on merits) to that gay couple's challenge of Baker v. Nelson, states have the authority to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.

The time for the CA court to address Prop. 8's constitutionality was SIX MONTHS AGO. They had plenty of opportunity and Prop. 8 opponents filed lawsuits to that effect. The CA court dismissed them; the state AG mentioned NOTHING about the alleged unconstitutionality of Prop. 8. That's why he changed the title of Prop. 8, hoping that it would encourage a "No" vote.

Again, few would be complaining about Prop. 8's constitutionality, had the people voted it down. But, they didn't. Now, it's part of the state constitution. What opponents of it are trying to do now is strike it down on a technicality, which, some say, is a long shot.

If it wasn't "unconstitutional" in May; it ain't "unconstitutional" in November.

garebear

  • Time Out
  • Getbig V
  • *
  • Posts: 6491
  • Never question my instincts.
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #168 on: November 12, 2008, 04:26:25 PM »
I voted yes on prop 8. I have a wife and 2 children. IMO, I don't hate gays, but their agenda. If it was left to just the marriage issue, maybe people wouldn't have such an issue with them. The fact is the majority of people have spoken, that is a democracy, the minority ruling and making decisions is socialism. This country was founded for 2 reasons, freedom to worship and taxation without representation. For some of you who want to talk about separatation of church and state, it simply meant this, that a religion can not run the goverment, it did not mean that religion can not have a say in goverment. The judicial system was set up for one reason "to interpet the law" not to make laws up. When they do, they make a mockery of our democracy. I voted for Arnold and I thought he was for our democracies, since he has been in office he flipped on this issue numerous times. He now comes out to support gays protesting and tell them to do it? Wow! Does he support their vandalism and violence? You will never pesuade people with violence, but rather lead to the other, which is hate. If this was on the other side, and the hetosexuals were doing the same protests, we would be labeled hate mongers and charged a crime. The gays civil rights are not violated. They now have more rights than ever, if you don't believe that go back to the 60,70,80,90's and see how times have changed. Sodomity(practicing homosexuality) use to be labeled a crime. California, is a very liberal state, the people have spoken and want to distingush traditional marriage between a man and a woman, it says no where in that prop to violate the civil rights of gays. Oh, I agree with an earlier post about being born that way, it is called sin, the difference is we have a choice. And for all you that hate homosexuals, and don't have any sin, cast the frist stone, as jesus would say. Don't hate anyone, just the performing acts of sin. I do not believe in the acts of abortion either, but it is law, but it doesn't not mean I have to agree to them. I am hoping our society stays a democracy, but I see a dwindeling downfall.

It's too bad you have kids.

Have you ever considered moving to Iran? There are no homosexuals there and every citizen must live under religious law. Maybe you could get a job with the religious police. Perhaps that would be a place more to your liking.
G

Fury

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 21026
  • All aboard the USS Leverage
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #169 on: November 12, 2008, 04:34:39 PM »
More religious bullshit. Why is it a "sin"? Because a book written a couple thousand years ago tells you it is? That might be good enough for me if I were retarded.  ::)

Yet again, religion controlling the minds of the sheep.

Straw Man

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 41012
  • one dwells in nirvana
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #170 on: November 12, 2008, 04:49:47 PM »
Exactly!!!

Per the federal's Court dismissal (on merits) to that gay couple's challenge of Baker v. Nelson, states have the authority to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.

The time for the CA court to address Prop. 8's constitutionality was SIX MONTHS AGO. They had plenty of opportunity and Prop. 8 opponents filed lawsuits to that effect. The CA court dismissed them; the state AG mentioned NOTHING about the alleged unconstitutionality of Prop. 8. That's why he changed the title of Prop. 8, hoping that it would encourage a "No" vote.

Again, few would be complaining about Prop. 8's constitutionality, had the people voted it down. But, they didn't. Now, it's part of the state constitution. What opponents of it are trying to do now is strike it down on a technicality, which, some say, is a long shot.

If it wasn't "unconstitutional" in May; it ain't "unconstitutional" in November.

Please refresh my memory. What lawsuits were presented to the CA Supreme Court challenging that Prop 8 was unconstitutional.  I can't find any but I guess there must be some because you've mentioned it a few times.

The only reference to the case you listed appears to be from Minnesota in 1972.

It seems to be that once the Supreme Court made the decision in May that acknowledged that gay couples had the right to marry that there is now a valid (seemingly) challenge to the constitutionality of Prop 8.   Prior to that decision there would not be a similar argument.

The decision by the court was in May of 2008 and Prop 8 didn't even get the votes necessary to get on the ballot until June.

timfogarty

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7108
  • @fogartyTim on twitter
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #171 on: November 12, 2008, 04:56:12 PM »
The time for the CA court to address Prop. 8's constitutionality was SIX MONTHS AGO.

the courts generally don't take on what-ifs.  it wasn't a law, so they had no jurisdiction.  the only thing they could rule on was the technical issues of how it was filed, signatures collected, etc.

Tre

  • Expert
  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 16548
  • "What you don't have is a career."
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #172 on: November 12, 2008, 05:07:23 PM »
Exactly!!!

Per the federal's Court dismissal (on merits) to that gay couple's challenge of Baker v. Nelson, states have the authority to define marriage as a union between one man and one woman.

The time for the CA court to address Prop. 8's constitutionality was SIX MONTHS AGO. They had plenty of opportunity and Prop. 8 opponents filed lawsuits to that effect. The CA court dismissed them; the state AG mentioned NOTHING about the alleged unconstitutionality of Prop. 8. That's why he changed the title of Prop. 8, hoping that it would encourage a "No" vote.

Again, few would be complaining about Prop. 8's constitutionality, had the people voted it down. But, they didn't. Now, it's part of the state constitution. What opponents of it are trying to do now is strike it down on a technicality, which, some say, is a long shot.

If it wasn't "unconstitutional" in May; it ain't "unconstitutional" in November.

The Yes group outworked the No group.  No took a lot of things for granted, not the least of which was the resolve of the Yes campaign to spread their divisiveness across California and the rest of the nation. 

No won't get caught flat-footed next time around, though.  You can bank on that. 

There will be another round of protests this weekend and then things should die down a bit while some stuff works its way through the courts and that's when the work of getting the necessary petitions going will get underway. 

It's going to become a reality for California in either 2009 or 2010, so the truly interesting thing to observe will be how the current Yes on 8 crowd reacts when gay marriage is granted equal standing in the eyes of the law. 

big L dawg

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 5729
  • i always tell the truth even when i lie...
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #173 on: November 12, 2008, 08:22:24 PM »
More religious bullshit. Why is it a "sin"? Because a book written a couple thousand years ago tells you it is? That might be good enough for me if I were retarded.  ::)

Yet again, religion controlling the minds of the sheep.

bump 4 Truth on that one.
DAWG

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19327
  • Getbig!
Re: Cowardly "No on Prop. 8" supporters in California?
« Reply #174 on: November 13, 2008, 09:53:28 AM »
Please refresh my memory. What lawsuits were presented to the CA Supreme Court challenging that Prop 8 was unconstitutional.  I can't find any but I guess there must be some because you've mentioned it a few times.

That would be the following (from Wikipedia):


Early legal challenges

On July 16, 2008, the California Supreme Court denied, without comment, a petition calling for the removal of Proposition 8 from the November ballot on the grounds it was a constitutional revision that only the Legislature or a constitutional convention could place before voters. Opponents also argued that the petitions circulated to qualify the measure for the ballot inaccurately summarized its effect. The court denied the petition without comment.
As a general rule, it is improper for courts to adjudicate pre-election challenges to a measure's substantive validity. (Costa v. Superior Court (2006) 37 Cal.4th 986, 1005-1006.) The question of whether Proposition 8 is a constitutional amendment or constitutional revision remains unresolved, and a new petition arguing that Proposition 8 is a revision was filed by civil rights groups on November 5, 2008.

On July 22, 2008, Proposition 8 supporters mounted a legal challenge to the revised ballot title and summary, contending that Attorney General Brown had inserted "inflammatory" language that would "unduly prejudice voters against" Proposition 8. Supporters claimed that research showed that an attorney general had never used an active verb like “eliminates” in the title of a ballot measure in the past fifty years in which ballot measures have been used. Representatives of the Attorney General produced twelve examples of ballot measures using the word "eliminates" and vouched for the neutrality and accuracy of the ballot language.

On August 8, 2008, the California Superior Court turned down the legal challenge, affirming the new title and summary, stating, "the title and summary is not false or misleading because it states that Proposition 8 would 'eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry' in California. The California Supreme Court unequivocally held that same-sex couples have a constitutional right to marry under the California Constitution." That same day, proponents of Prop. 8 filed an emergency appeal with the state appeals court. The Court of Appeal denied their petition later that day and supporters did not seek a review by the Supreme Court of California.The deadline for court action on the wording of ballot summaries and arguments in the voter pamphlet was August 11.

While turning down the challenge to the title and summary, the California Superior Court also found that the Yes on 8 campaign had overstated its ballot argument on the measure's impact on public schools and ordered a minor change in wording. The original arguments included a claim that the Supreme Court's legalization of same-sex marriage requires teachers to tell their students, as young as kindergarten age, that same-sex marriage is the same as opposite-sex marriage. The court said the Yes on 8 argument was false because instruction on marriage is not required and parents can withdraw their children. The court said the ballot argument could be preserved by rewording it to state that teachers "may" or "could" be required to tell children there is no difference between same-sex and opposite-sex marriage.


From the San Francisco Chronicle:

The plaintiffs are six unmarried same-sex couples and the advocacy group Equality California; another couple who married shortly after the May 15 ruling took effect; and the cities of San Francisco and Los Angeles, joined by Santa Clara County.

Although their lawyers would not discuss their strategy publicly, each suit seeks to overturn Prop. 8 on the basis of state law and avoids federal constitutional claims that could send the case to the U.S. Supreme Court. Gay-rights advocates have tried to keep such disputes away from the nation's high court, out of fear that the justices would issue a nationwide ruling rejecting any right of same-sex marriage under the U.S. Constitution.

That leaves the plaintiffs with the difficult task of showing that Prop. 8, a state constitutional amendment, violates other, more basic provisions of California's Charter. The court has almost always rejected such challenges to other constitutional amendments.

Some of the same legal organizations filing suit Wednesday offered similar arguments this summer to try to remove Prop. 8 from the ballot, but the court refused, while leaving room for a postelection challenge.


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/05/BA3B13UM63.DTL&type=politics

Simply put, the burden is on the plantiffs to show that Prop. 8 is a complete revision of the state Constitution, instead of an amendment. If they can't (and from what I've read, some legal experts think it's a long shot), then as they say in football, "the ruling on the field stands!!".





The only reference to the case you listed appears to be from Minnesota in 1972.

It seems to be that once the Supreme Court made the decision in May that acknowledged that gay couples had the right to marry that there is now a valid (seemingly) challenge to the constitutionality of Prop 8.   Prior to that decision there would not be a similar argument.

No, the court ruled, based on how the constitution read at that time. The constitution reads differently now.

The decision by the court was in May of 2008 and Prop 8 didn't even get the votes necessary to get on the ballot until June.

The votes were submitted, before the court made its ruling. Prop. 8 was going to be on the ballot, regardless of how the court ruled.

More religious bullshit. Why is it a "sin"? Because a book written a couple thousand years ago tells you it is? That might be good enough for me if I were retarded.  ::)

Yet again, religion controlling the minds of the sheep.

You're the one doing the bleating. What's your excuse?

The Yes group outworked the No group.  No took a lot of things for granted, not the least of which was the resolve of the Yes campaign to spread their divisiveness across California and the rest of the nation. 

No won't get caught flat-footed next time around, though.  You can bank on that. 

There will be another round of protests this weekend and then things should die down a bit while some stuff works its way through the courts and that's when the work of getting the necessary petitions going will get underway. 

It's going to become a reality for California in either 2009 or 2010, so the truly interesting thing to observe will be how the current Yes on 8 crowd reacts when gay marriage is granted equal standing in the eyes of the law. 


Which "gay rights" group is getting the petition started? The court has to focus on what to do with the 18,000 gay couples with licenses in hand, and whether or not Prop. 8 is retroactive.