Author Topic: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out  (Read 11812 times)

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #125 on: November 23, 2008, 07:52:45 AM »
In my honest opinion the main victim of the economic slaughter we're about to be forced into, by these I-care-about-noone-but-myself capitalists and their bitches in congress and the white house, is people.

People just don't give a shit about other people. I mean, if you call yourself a patriot, an American, why would you not want your neighbor to have a well-paid job, his kid to have the same opportunity as yours (and I ain't talking about communism!). Where does this "overpaid slobs" bullshit come from? Aren't we all Americans?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #126 on: November 23, 2008, 09:04:29 AM »
In my honest opinion the main victim of the economic slaughter we're about to be forced into, by these I-care-about-noone-but-myself capitalists and their bitches in congress and the white house, is people.

People just don't give a shit about other people. I mean, if you call yourself a patriot, an American, why would you not want your neighbor to have a well-paid job, his kid to have the same opportunity as yours (and I ain't talking about communism!). Where does this "overpaid slobs" bullshit come from? Aren't we all Americans?


It comes from people like yourself who want to force others to buy overpriced items and not have competition. 

I do not feel it is my responsibility or that of others to subsidize high wages for inferior products and services. 

The overpaid slobs I was referring to are the executives who make insane money and do a terrible job. 

 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #127 on: November 23, 2008, 09:07:23 AM »
In my honest opinion the main victim of the economic slaughter we're about to be forced into, by these I-care-about-noone-but-myself capitalists and their bitches in congress and the white house, is people.

People just don't give a shit about other people. I mean, if you call yourself a patriot, an American, why would you not want your neighbor to have a well-paid job, his kid to have the same opportunity as yours (and I ain't talking about communism!). Where does this "overpaid slobs" bullshit come from? Aren't we all Americans?

Another thing, my clients would fire me in a heartbeat if I provided a crap service and tried to overcharge them for it.  The American people have told the car companies the same thing, dont produce over priced crap and expect us to buy it. 

Companies exist to make money and profit, not be an employment program.

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #128 on: November 23, 2008, 09:27:58 AM »

It comes from people like yourself who want to force others to buy overpriced items and not have competition.

What do you mean I "force" people to accept prices? The unions do not set prices, the companies do. Aside from this, the vast majority of companies going under are non-union. So there is no correlation WHATSOEVER that unions = higher prices = bankrupcy. As far as competition goes, I presume you're talking about the free market economy type, is a fallacy. There ARE sectors that have more freedom (within some preset economic parameters mind you) than others, but by and large having 4 to 5 conglomerates running the show is not "pure competition" at all, at least the way I was taugh about in school.

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I do not feel it is my responsibility or that of others to subsidize high wages for inferior products and services.

Again, you keep saying "inferior products and services", which is YOUR OPINION, not fact. I happen to opine exactly the oposite. I think American products are generally good, some more than others, but compared to some of the shit that comes out the countries that YOU (a patriot for sure!) deem deserving to "subsidize" is ludicrous.

And yes, unionized assembly line workers make a lot more money that some of their counterparts in Japan, Korea or India, but I do not see the Koreans paying $500,000 for a house, $100,000 for their kid's education or $5 for a gallon of gas. Oh, wait, they have no car because they make so little money. Virtual slaves.

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The overpaid slobs I was referring to are the executives who make insane money and do a terrible job.

Good, I guess we agree on something then.

Slapper

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #129 on: November 23, 2008, 09:55:35 AM »
Another thing, my clients would fire me in a heartbeat if I provided a crap service and tried to overcharge them for it.  The American people have told the car companies the same thing, dont produce over priced crap and expect us to buy it. 

Companies exist to make money and profit, not be an employment program.

Well, I hate to break it to ya, but companies are "employment" programs precisely because they NEED employees. On the other hand, employees do not need companies. Do you understand the difference? I mean, if you own a business and feel like you bring all this value to the community you SERVE... I hate to break it to you, but you're not needed. The community will go on without your business. If you want slaves, move your Korean ass back Korea. This ain't the place for you any more.

Now, the easy thing here is to blame the unions for what is taking place in the automobile industry. I, on the other hand, argue that since unions have NO SAY in the choice of products being sold or HOW they are made they get zero blame from my point of view. I am not saying that they do not make mistakes, they are human after all. All I'm saying is look at the data about car recalls and you TELL ME that unions are somehow involved in "design flaws", which is the # 1 problem with AAM.

Nowadays it's the UAW who is, hand by hand, working with Big Auto in order to get them the bailout funds they need to keep the industry going, going as far as laying out a plan of restructurization that some in Big Car are unwilling to accept because it requires the companies to pay out a dividend! These people want to get the money from the fed and pay out a fucking dividend for God's sake!!! This is the type of shit that drives ANY business down the drain.

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #130 on: November 23, 2008, 11:46:23 AM »
Jews, it's the Jews.
I hate the State.

Decker

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #131 on: November 23, 2008, 02:10:00 PM »
No, but the costs they impose on the company mean that they cant produce a decent low priced reliable vehicle.

Without the high unions legacy costs, at least they could be competitive on price.
How do you know these things?

Why isn't it the tens of millions of dollars paid to a handful of auto executives that's causing the auto industry to lose its competitive edge?  Don't the executive decisions re the type of car produced, the manner in which it's produced and the targeted market group have a bit more effect on the auto industry's failure rather than the modest wages of rank and file workers?

muscleforlife

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #132 on: November 23, 2008, 02:23:38 PM »

It comes from people like yourself who want to force others to buy overpriced items and not have competition. 

I do not feel it is my responsibility or that of others to subsidize high wages for inferior products and services. 

The overpaid slobs I was referring to are the executives who make insane money and do a terrible job. 

 

Exactly.  I'm not talking about someone who works hard for their well earned money.
I am talking about executives who raid pension funds, sends the company out of business and walk away with multimillion dollar payouts.
Executives flying to Washington in each of thier own private jets to ask for taxpayers money to sustain the business they  have so badly mismanaged.
Sandra

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #133 on: November 23, 2008, 05:44:12 PM »
Congress and the Bush administration are currently considering whether to spend $25 billion to rescue Detroit automakers. The proposal has generally been met with stiff resistance from conservatives, who have increasingly been pinning all the blame for the crisis in Detroit on labor unions:

Sen. Jim DeMint: “Some auto manufacturers are struggling because of a bad business structure with high unionized labor costs and burdensome federal regulations. Taxpayers did not create these problems and they should not be forced to pay for them.”

Sen. Jon Kyl: “For years they’ve been sick. They have a bad business model. They have contracts negotiated with the United Auto Workers that impose huge costs.The average hourly cost per worker in this country is about $28.48. For these auto makers, it’s $73. And for the Japanese auto companies working here in the United States, it’s $48.”

Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger: “You know, if you pay the auto workers or the benefits and all of those things, are maybe too high. … We have, like, in America, you sell a car, and you have $2,000 of each car just goes to benefits. So I think that there’s a way of reducing all of that, make them more fiscally responsible.”

Unions do not deserve the blame placed on them by the right wing. In fact, unions have repeatedly made concessions to auto executives over recent years. Contrary to Kyl’s claim, new auto employees earn $25.65 an hour.

Big Three automaker CEOs and executives based their business model on a future of cheap oil, fighting fuel efficiency standards despite warnings against such a strategy. Detroit manufactured, as Tom Friedman pointed out, oversized gas-guzzling SUVs that reduced their competitive edge.

Financial firms AIG, Merrill Lynch, and Bear Stearns did not have unionized workers but still suffered economic collapses. Frozen credit markets and a spiraling recession were major contributors to Detroit’s current state. Today, the Center for American Progress urged Congress “to support legislation to grant a $25 billion bridge loan to the U.S. auto companies to ensure that they avoid bankruptcy” provided the automakers provide health and retirement security and invest in clean technology.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/11/17/unions-auto-bailout/

Why is it that any phenomenon that benefits the middle and lower class as a whole is targeted by rightwingers as THE problem.  From Soc. Sec. to this topic, unions, they are decried as a problem.

I, for one, am glad that the 'every man for himself' tact is dying on the vine.  It's too divisive a notion in these troubled times.
i approve of these loans with the conditions put forward by barney frank.  all conditions must be agreed to before any funds are approved.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #134 on: November 24, 2008, 05:38:07 AM »
i approve of these loans with the conditions put forward by barney frank.  all conditions must be agreed to before any funds are approved.

When Barney Frank is the financial guru now to manage loans to car companies, our country is really heading off the cliff.

Here is one of the congresscum who oversaw the housing disaster and now we are going to give him the reigns on automobiles??????


y19mike77

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #135 on: November 24, 2008, 07:17:08 AM »
If I say "Give me what I want or I will financially ruin you" I am committing the crime of extortion.  If however, I get together with a group of co-workers and say the same thing to a business, I am working man fighting an evil thieving corporation that exploits society.  How does this make sense? 

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #136 on: November 24, 2008, 07:19:53 AM »
If I say "Give me what I want or I will financially ruin you" I am committing the crime of extortion.  If however, I get together with a group of co-workers and say the same thing to a business, I am working man fighting an evil thieving corporation that exploits society.  How does this make sense? 

These car companies are a joke and need to go bankrupt if they refuse to do away with the UAW rules and costs.

No company can remain competitive in mfg with the high costs and burdens of Union labor.   

y19mike77

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #137 on: November 24, 2008, 07:22:12 AM »
What do you mean I "force" people to accept prices? The unions do not set prices, the companies do.

Part of the attraction of a union's is higher wages. In order for a company to make up for higher wages is raising the price of there products. So they do affect the price of products.

y19mike77

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #138 on: November 24, 2008, 07:25:28 AM »
These car companies are a joke and need to go bankrupt if they refuse to do away with the UAW rules and costs.

No company can remain competitive in mfg with the high costs and burdens of Union labor.   


I agree that they should be allowed to go bankrupt.

Union labor is like cancer they will keep killing the company until its dead.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #139 on: November 24, 2008, 07:26:07 AM »
What do you mean I "force" people to accept prices? The unions do not set prices, the companies do.

Part of the attraction of a union's is higher wages. In order for a company to make up for higher wages is raising the price of there products. So they do affect the price of products.

Of course the Unions help set the price of the vehicle.  By imposing certain work rules, and the enormous legacy and health care costs for retirees, the cost of the car has to reflect these higher costs that other companies dont have.

Liberals like slapper dont understand this and still are completely ignorant as to why these companies are going bankrupt.  

The executives should all be fired, I agree, but the basic costs to GM, Ford, and Chrysler, before they even build the car, are just too high to remain viable.    

Decker

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #140 on: November 24, 2008, 07:26:44 AM »
No, but the costs they impose on the company mean that they cant produce a decent low priced reliable vehicle.

Without the high unions legacy costs, at least they could be competitive on price.
How do you know these things?

Why isn't it the tens of millions of dollars paid to a handful of auto executives that's causing the auto industry to lose its competitive edge?  Don't the executive decisions re the type of car produced, the manner in which it's produced and the targeted market group have a bit more effect on the auto industry's failure rather than the modest wages of rank and file workers?

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #141 on: November 24, 2008, 07:33:24 AM »
How do you know these things?

Why isn't it the tens of millions of dollars paid to a handful of auto executives that's causing the auto industry to lose its competitive edge?  Don't the executive decisions re the type of car produced, the manner in which it's produced and the targeted market group have a bit more effect on the auto industry's failure rather than the modest wages of rank and file workers?

You are such a naive person sometimes.  What is the difference between Honda, Toyota, BMW on the one hand, and GM Ford, amd Chrysler in the US???????????????????

Answers:

1.  Better products for the same money.

2.  Union contracts and competent management who dont let their companies go Union.

3.  No legacy costs and no paying people who dont work.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #142 on: November 24, 2008, 07:34:57 AM »
How do you know these things?

Why isn't it the tens of millions of dollars paid to a handful of auto executives that's causing the auto industry to lose its competitive edge?  Don't the executive decisions re the type of car produced, the manner in which it's produced and the targeted market group have a bit more effect on the auto industry's failure rather than the modest wages of rank and file workers?

Many of the decisions of design and mfg are a result of the costs the company knows it has to cover due to the labor costs.

I read a stat that over $1600 in each car is for legacy costs alone.

y19mike77

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #143 on: November 24, 2008, 07:38:25 AM »
You are such a naive person sometimes.  What is the difference between Honda, Toyota, BMW on the one hand, and GM Ford, amd Chrysler in the US???????????????????

Answers:

1.  Better products for the same money.

2.  Union contracts and competent management who dont let their companies go Union.

3.  No legacy costs and no paying people who dont work.

Thats the end of the discussion for most normal people, but Decker will continue lol.

Decker

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #144 on: November 24, 2008, 07:40:45 AM »
Many of the decisions of design and mfg are a result of the costs the company knows it has to cover due to the labor costs.

I read a stat that over $1600 in each car is for legacy costs alone.
And how much of that cost is due to the 10s of millions of dollars in executive compensation paid to corporate elites...or due to horrible executive mismanagment in ignoring the production of fuel efficient cars?

The point I'm making is more about the way you argue.  You present your highly jaded opinions as fact.  You rarely, if ever, cite a source. 

You lead and finish with your conclusion that Unions have ruined the auto industry but at the end of the day, that's only your opinion.

You look at one cost of doing business--unionized labor's pay and you've decided that that is to blame.

I do not think that's the case.  It's too facile an answer.  There's more to this than you are crediting.

Decker

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #145 on: November 24, 2008, 07:44:54 AM »
Thats the end of the discussion for most normal people, but Decker will continue lol.
That's b/c people like you define an argument to meet your highly politicized prejudice that unions are bad.

You offer no facts.  You offer no support.

Instead I see an insult and more unsupported conclusions.

This is how the plutocratic elites have conditioned you to think.

Besides the evil of unionized labor, I'm betting you believe that privatized social security is a good idea b/c the rate of return is higher.

I also bet that you think universalized healthcare is socialism and as such, is bad for this country.

Am I wrong about you?

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #146 on: November 24, 2008, 07:55:22 AM »
Ok then, why dont you tell me why the US car mfg are doing so poorly since you dont agree with anything anyone says.

I have stated my opinion and it is backed up by nearly all experts in the area.  I dont have to spend time giving you reference anfter reeference look it up for yourself.

Soul Crusher

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #147 on: November 24, 2008, 07:57:11 AM »
That's b/c people like you define an argument to meet your highly politicized prejudice that unions are bad.

You offer no facts.  You offer no support.

Instead I see an insult and more unsupported conclusions.

This is how the plutocratic elites have conditioned you to think.

Besides the evil of unionized labor, I'm betting you believe that privatized social security is a good idea b/c the rate of return is higher.

I also bet that you think universalized healthcare is socialism and as such, is bad for this country.

Am I wrong about you?

I believe that even if workers got to put their 7.5 percent in a private account in a bond or CD they would be better off than the ponzi scheme called SS. 

At least that way if the person died before they were able to collect they could pass it on to their heirs.

Decker

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #148 on: November 24, 2008, 08:00:33 AM »
Ok then, why dont you tell me why the US car mfg are doing so poorly since you dont agree with anything anyone says.

I have stated my opinion and it is backed up by nearly all experts in the area.  I dont have to spend time giving you reference anfter reeference look it up for yourself.
I told you already, it's a complex problem. 

But when I hear the liberal media blame the unions, I know bullshit is afloat.

I also know that you did not answer my questions.  How do you know it's the unions fault and not the profound mismanagment of greedy corporate executives?

I know you said it's both a few squares back, but now you're back on the "It's the Union's fault" kick.

y19mike77

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Re: Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out
« Reply #149 on: November 24, 2008, 08:02:05 AM »
First and foremost I was not insulting you. I respect you as a very informed guy. Who I could not disagree with more.

This thread is filled with facts go back and read it.

And no you are not wrong about me.

Social security is a joke and should be done away with all together.

Universal health care is a form of socialism.
Spin how you want but thats why it is called "socialized health care".