Stop Blaming the Unions in the Auto Bail-out

[Soul Crusher]

I had always heard that cars from Asian and European companies, even if they are made in the US, are better than cars from American companies, and that the unions are the reason why.  Union workers, whether or not they are lazy, unskilled or unmotivated, they can't be easily fired.  But in a company where there is no union, you get to hire the best guys for the job and fire the ones who are not doing a good job.

Damn right.  Unions are a cancer to productivty, accountability, and prgoress.

[Decker]

I had always heard that cars from Asian and European companies, even if they are made in the US, are better than cars from American companies, and that the unions are the reason why.  Union workers, whether or not they are lazy, unskilled or unmotivated, they can't be easily fired.  But in a company where there is no union, you get to hire the best guys for the job and fire the ones who are not doing a good job.

Workers can always be fired with cause. 

Your anecdotal conclusions are what is pushed through the liberal media in the US.  It's not the executive class, it's the workers who are the problem.  Those damn people expect a livable wage, benefits and a modicum of job security.

Whereas management/owners want a race to the bottom for worker compensation/safety/etc.--that's why 'globalization' is such a hit:  it undoes the last 100 years of progress for labor.

Why pay a livable wage here in the US when some kid in indonesia will do the job for pennies on the dollar without the "constraints" of benefits or worker safety?

[Soul Crusher]

Workers can always be fired with cause. 

Your anecdotal conclusions are what is pushed through the liberal media in the US.  It's not the executive class, it's the workers who are the problem.  Those damn people expect a livable wage, benefits and a modicum of job security.

Whereas management/owners want a race to the bottom for worker compensation/safety/etc.--that's why 'globalization' is such a hit:  it undoes the last 100 years of progress for labor.

Why pay a livable wage here in the US when some kid in indonesia will do the job for pennies on the dollar without the "constraints" of benefits or worker safety?

Its both.  The execs and the unions both stink.  They produce an over priced product people dont want.  Its that simple.

Other than the Corvette, Denali, and F150, there is not one other American made car I could see myself wanting.

I have a 2007 BMW 3 Series and a Ford Explorer 2002.  I had a mustang GT before that which constantly had problems with the thermostat overheat all the time.  FORD - Fix Or Repair Daily!

The BMW is near flawless.  The Explorer transmission went at 40,000 miles. 

My next purchase will be either a Honda Ridgeline or Nissan Fronteir.

   

[loco]

Workers can always be fired with cause. 

Your anecdotal conclusions are what is pushed through the liberal media in the US.  It's not the executive class, it's the workers who are the problem.  Those damn people expect a livable wage, benefits and a modicum of job security.

Whereas management/owners want a race to the bottom for worker compensation/safety/etc.--that's why 'globalization' is such a hit:  it undoes the last 100 years of progress for labor.

Why pay a livable wage here in the US when some kid in indonesia will do the job for pennies on the dollar without the "constraints" of benefits or worker safety?

They are not my anecdotal conclusions.  It's just what I've always heard.  I never knew, and did not really care, if that was the true reason why Asian and European cars are so much better than American cars.  Aren't the Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry the most sold cars in America, and Lexus has the highest customer satisfaction?  This thread is the first time I hear something different.

[Soul Crusher]

They are not my anecdotal conclusions.  It's just what I've always heard.  I never knew, and did not really care, if that was the true reason why Asian and European cars are so much better than American cars.  Aren't the Honda Accord and the Toyota Camry the most sold cars in America, and Lexus has the highest customer satisfaction?  This thread is the first time I hear something different.

The whole "for cause" thing is a joke since it always results in lawsuits since the parties always disagree on the "cause". 

Its the same thing as incompetent teachers not being able to be fired.

[Decker]

Its both.  The execs and the unions both stink.  They produce an over priced product people dont want.  Its that simple.

Other than the Corvette, Denali, and F150, there is not one other American made car I could see myself wanting.

I have a 2007 BMW 3 Series and a Ford Explorer 2002.  I had a mustang GT before that which constantly had problems with the thermostat overheat all the time.  FORD - Fix Or Repair Daily!

The BMW is near flawless.  The Explorer transmission went at 40,000 miles. 

My next purchase will be either a Honda Ridgeline or Nissan Fronteir.

   

The problem with this thread is that this topic is really complex.  We try to engage in reductionism like crazy here and sometimes that just doesn't work.

Yeah, I think that some guy earning 50k for pushing a broom is out of touch.  I also think some guy getting 9 million for doing a shitty job should be slapped around.  There's so much wrong with labor/management.  

I remember when the biggest discussion was about 'buying american.'  Now toyota is more american than some american cars.

[loco]

Now toyota is more american than some american cars.

And still better than American cars, and they have no union.  Not saying that's the reason.   

[Decker]

They are not my anecdotal conclusions.  It's just what I've always heard.  ..

That's what anecdotal means.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anecdotal

I wasn't trying to offend you.  Anecdotal evidence is not very good evidence, that's all.  Sometimes it's dead on.

[Parker]

Its both.  The execs and the unions both stink.  They produce an over priced product people dont want.  Its that simple.

Other than the Corvette, Denali, and F150, there is not one other American made car I could see myself wanting.

I have a 2007 BMW 3 Series and a Ford Explorer 2002.  I had a mustang GT before that which constantly had problems with the thermostat overheat all the time.  FORD - Fix Or Repair Daily!

The BMW is near flawless.  The Explorer transmission went at 40,000 miles. 

My next purchase will be either a Honda Ridgeline or Nissan Fronteir.

   

As i was listening to the editor in chief of Forbes magazine on C-span radio. The question abou the Automakers. he said, "Which US auto Industry, are we talking about the Auto Industry that makes Honda Accords, BMWs, Mercedes? They are doing well. Or The Auto Industry in Detroit?" Another guy on another day said that GM is making a killing in China, and they are also doing well in Europe....Seems like the problem is how they run things over here, and how they have had low quality product for ages, so now that they finally are coming with the goods, its too late, the public doesn't trust them....

[loco]

That's what anecdotal means.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anecdotal

I wasn't trying to offend you.  Anecdotal evidence is not very good evidence, that's all.  Sometimes it's dead on.

You did not offend me, and I know you were not trying to.  I'm just saying that I can't argue with you because it's just what I've heard.  I'm not an expert on this subject.  

[Soul Crusher]

As i was listening to the editor in chief of Forbes magazine on C-span radio. The question abou the Automakers. he said, "Which US auto Industry, are we talking about the Auto Industry that makes Honda Accords, BMWs, Mercedes? They are doing well. Or The Auto Industry in Detroit?" Another guy on another day said that GM is making a killing in China, and they are also doing well in Europe....Seems like the problem is how they run things over here, and how they have had low quality product for ages, so now that they finally are coming with the goods, its too late, the public doesn't trust them....

I would live to buy American and get a F150.  However, for what I want, its going to cost$$$$$$$$$$ where I can get a honda Ridgeline at less cost and know it will go forever.   

[Buffgeek]

The problem with this thread is that this topic is really complex.  We try to engage in reductionism like crazy here and sometimes that just doesn't work.

Yeah, I think that some guy earning 50k for pushing a broom is out of touch.  I also think some guy getting 9 million for doing a shitty job should be slapped around.  There's so much wrong with labor/management.  

I remember when the biggest discussion was about 'buying american.'  Now toyota is more american than some american cars.

These are all good points.  Bottom line I think if a company is failing you need to let it die. There will always be someone to take their place if the market is there.

I understand the significance of these companies to the American Insustrial past, but these companies have gotten fat and bloated and obviously their business model and products are subpar.

[Dos Equis]

Big Three auto CEOs flew private jets to ask for taxpayer money Story Highlights
Lawmaker: Flying jet to hearing like going to "soup kitchen in high hat and tuxedo"

Rep. Brad Sherman asked CEOs whether they would fly back commercial

Company representatives pointed to safety, travel policies as reasons for flying jets

By Josh Levs
     
(CNN) -- Some lawmakers lashed out at the CEOs of the Big Three auto companies Wednesday for flying private jets to Washington to request taxpayer bailout money.



Chrysler CEO Robert Nardelli, left, and Ford CEO Alan Mulally testify on Capitol Hill on Wednesday.

 "There is a delicious irony in seeing private luxury jets flying into Washington, D.C., and people coming off of them with tin cups in their hand, saying that they're going to be trimming down and streamlining their businesses," Rep. Gary Ackerman, D-New York, told the chief executive officers of Ford, Chrysler and General Motors at a hearing of the House Financial Services Committee.

"It's almost like seeing a guy show up at the soup kitchen in high hat and tuxedo. It kind of makes you a little bit suspicious."

He added, "couldn't you all have downgraded to first class or jet-pooled or something to get here? It would have at least sent a message that you do get it."

Rep. Brad Sherman, D-California, asked the three CEOs to "raise their hand if they flew here commercial. Let the record show, no hands went up. Second, I'm going to ask you to raise your hand if you are planning to sell your jet in place now and fly back commercial. Let the record show, no hands went up."

The executives -- Alan Mulally of Ford, Robert Nardelli of Chrysler and Richard Wagoner of GM -- did not specifically respond to those remarks. In their testimony, they said they are streamlining business operations in general.  Watch Nardelli ask for help »

When contacted by CNN, the three auto companies defended the CEOs' travel as standard procedure.

Like many other major corporations, all three have policies requiring their CEOs to travel in private jets for safety reasons.

"Making a big to-do about this when issues vital to the jobs of millions of Americans are being discussed in Washington is diverting attention away from a critical debate that will determine the future health of the auto industry and the American economy," GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said in a statement.

Chrysler spokeswoman Lori McTavish said in a statement, "while always being mindful of company costs, all business travel requires the highest standard of safety for all employees."

Ford spokeswoman Kelli Felker pointed to the company's travel policy and did not provide a statement elaborating.

But those statements did little to mollify the critics.

"If it is simply the company's money at stake, then only the shareholders can be upset or feel as it it might be excessive," said Thomas Schatz, president of the watchdog group Citizens Against Government Waste.

But in this case, he said, "it's outrageous."

"They're coming to Washington to beg the taxpayers to help them. It's unseemly to be running around on a $20,000 flight versus a $500 round trip," Schatz added.

The companies did not disclose how much the flights cost.

Analysts contacted by CNN noted that the prices vary with the size of the plane and the crew, and whether the aircraft is leased or owned by the company.

Analyst Richard Aboulafia of the Teal Group said that $20,000 is a legitimate ballpark figure for a round trip corporate jet flight between Detroit, Michigan, and Washington.

When asked whether they plan to change their travel policies as part of the restructuring needed to shore up their finances, none of the companies answered directly. But they said they have cut back on travel in general as revenues have fallen.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/11/19/autos.ceo.jets/index.html

[BayGBM]

Auto Execs Fly Corporate Jets to D.C., Tin Cups in Hand
By Dana Milbank

There are 24 daily nonstop flights from Detroit to the Washington area. Richard Wagoner, Alan Mulally and Robert Nardelli probably should have taken one of them.

Instead, the chief executives of the Big Three automakers opted to fly their company jets to the capital for their hearings this week before the Senate and House -- an ill-timed display of corporate excess for a trio of executives begging for an additional $25 billion from the public trough this week.

"There's a delicious irony in seeing private luxury jets flying into Washington, D.C., and people coming off of them with tin cups in their hands," Rep. Gary L. Ackerman (D-N.Y.) advised the pampered executives at a hearing yesterday. "It's almost like seeing a guy show up at the soup kitchen in high-hat and tuxedo. . . . I mean, couldn't you all have downgraded to first class or jet-pooled or something to get here?"

The Big Three said nothing, which prompted Rep. Brad Sherman (D-Calif.) to rub it in. "I'm going to ask the three executives here to raise their hand if they flew here commercial," he said. All still at the witness table. "Second," he continued, "I'm going ask you to raise your hand if you're planning to sell your jet . . . and fly back commercial." More stillness. "Let the record show no hands went up," Sherman grandstanded.

By now, the men were probably wishing they had driven -- and other members of the House Financial Services Committee weren't done riding the CEOs over their jets. "You traveled in a private jet?" Rep. Nydia M. Velázquez (D-N.Y.) contributed. Rep. Patrick T. McHenry (R-N.C.) felt the need to say that "I'm not an opponent of private flights by any means, but the fact that you flew in on your own private jet at tens of thousands itself dollars of cost just for you to make your way to Washington is a bit arrogant before you ask the taxpayers for money."

It was a display of stone-cold tone-deafness by the automaker chiefs. In their telling, they have no responsibility for the auto industry's current mess. Threatening the nation with economic Armageddon if they are not given government aid, they spent much of the session declaring what a fine job they've been doing in Detroit.

"Chrysler really is the quintessential American car company!" Chrysler's Nardelli boasted.

"We have products that are winning car and truck of the year regularly," General Motors' Wagoner proclaimed.

"We are equal to or better than Honda and Toyota," Ford's Mulally added. "Every new vehicle that we make, whether it's small, medium or large, is best in fuel efficiency. The given is safety. And we have more, at Ford, more five-star quality and safety ratings than any other automobile."

Committee Chairman Barney Frank (D-Mass.) cut him off. "Thank you, Mr. --"

"And the best value!" Mulally blurted out.

"Commercials can go later," the chairman proposed.

They would have to go later, because members of the committee wanted to turn the session into a special edition of "Car Talk." Rep. Mike Castle (R-Del.) spoke of his '99 Jeep: "It probably has about 150,000 miles on it, and it's still running doggone well." Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-Tex.) invoked his '98 Jeep Cherokee: "Small problem with the back hatch staying open; we can talk about that afterwards." Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.) praised her Chrysler minivan. Rep. Judy Biggert (R-Ill.) had good words for her Jeep but complained that it didn't come in a hybrid version.

"I drive the same '66 Plymouth Valiant that I've always had," Ackerman proffered. He went on to discuss a problem with the GPS system in his Cadillac. "I wanted a loaded car in blue; I had to reach out to five states to find one in blue," he complained.

It seemed everybody had a car story to tell. Rep. John Campbell (R-Calif.) let it be known that he was a car dealer for 25 years. Rep. Stephen Lynch (D-Mass.) disclosed that he had worked at the GM plant in Framingham. Rep. Donald Manzullo (R-Ill.) wanted to see more ads for the car made in his district, while Rep. Michael Capuano (D-Mass.) said the Edsel was once made in his home town. Rep. Walter Jones (R-N.C.) read from Cicero and held up photos of cars. And Rep. David Scott (D-Ga.) had no car stories to tell but delivered the surprising news that the problem with the Titanic was not its collision with an iceberg.

Detroit area lawmakers made passionate arguments that the carmakers had already done what "they possibly can to restructure and become globally competitive," as Rep. Thaddeus McCotter (R-Mich.) put it.

But the executives were not helping their own case. When Rep. Paul Kanjorski (D-Pa.) tried to find out when GM would run out of cash, Wagoner hemmed and hawed until the lawmaker protested that "I don't quite understand what the hell you just told me." When Rep. Ed Perlmutter (D-Colo.) asked about GM's outlook for the quarter, Wagoner informed him that "we don't provide financial guidance in earnings."

So it was hard to feel sorry for the executives when Rep. Peter Roskam (R-Ill.), late in the hearing, reminded them again that "the symbolism of the private jet is difficult," and mischievously asked the witnesses whether, in another symbolic gesture, they would be willing to work for $1 a year, as Nardelli has offered to do.

"I don't have a position on that today," demurred Wagoner (2007 total compensation: $15.7 million).

"I understand the intent, but I think where we are is okay," said Mulally ($21.7 million).

"I'm asking about you," Roskam pressed.

"I think I'm okay where I am," Mulally said.

And don't even think about asking him to fly commercial.

[Arnold jr]

The big 3 pay there employees $25+ an hour, but it's the total cost per hour $70+ that's the problem...compared to the non unionized auto makers who's total cost is $40+ dollars an hour.

This issue is not what the employees are being paid, the issue is total cost.

Without this bailout being approved, which the senate hearing denied today, the big 3 will more then likely file for bankruptcy...but more then likely it will not be the end of these companies. They will file chapter 7, which will allow them to still fully function while renegotiating union agreements, parts agreements, etc. It will be a long tough road, but it's the right one.

Any of those companies that don't make it will be because of union greed.

Unions overall, the principles and ideas behind getting a union together for any employee group, the idea is sound and the thought I believe was originally a good one. But union greed has been one of the major pitfalls of the U.S. economy...they are as much to blame as corrupt CEO's and executives...maybe even more so.

[Decker]

I don't get where this hatred and condescension for the working man comes from on these boards.

The benefits and pay of non-union foreign automakers are in line with their US counterparts, so what's the problem? 

In other words, it's not the Unions that is causing the Big 3 to go belly up.

Is it that executive pay has exploded exponentially? Maybe.  Is it horrible management, probably.

[Soul Crusher]

Its both.  Unionism promotes mediocrity.  The stupid execs are WAY overpaid and not producing innovative and good products at a reasonable cost.

The reason they cant do so is because they are hamstrung by Union rules and costs.

GM can't compete and produce a reliable afforable car because they will lose money on each car produced due to the costs of labor and legacy costs involved.

Its sad, but this has been in the making for years, this is nothing new.

Toyota, Honda, and BMW all make cars in the US and are not in a mess.  Why? 

UNIONS & GOOD PRODUCTS THAT PEOPLE WANT TO BUY!!!!!!!!!

I have a 2007 BMW and 2002 Ford.

I will never buy another Ford again and love my BMW.  However, a BMW is not cheap and my next car will probably be a Honda ridgline or Nissan Frontier.   

   

[OzmO]

I don't get where this hatred and condescension for the working man comes from on these boards.

The benefits and pay of non-union foreign automakers are in line with their US counterparts, so what's the problem? 

In other words, it's not the Unions that is causing the Big 3 to go belly up.

Is it that executive pay has exploded exponentially? Maybe.  Is it horrible management, probably.

If the Automakers go belly up then what happens to the Unions?

Do the Unions have any influence with elected representatives?

[Decker]

If the Automakers go belly up then what happens to the Unions?

Do the Unions have any influence with elected representatives?

I don't know.  The big 3 will probably declare bankruptcy and reorganize and lay off a sizable portion of the workforce.  The collectively bargained contract will still exist and apply. 

[shootfighter1]

Decker, there was a comparison of auto workers from the US vs auto workers from Japan on tv (so I don't have a link).  They are not given similar wages and benefits.  The US worker made far more with wages, benefits and paid time off.  A lot of guys work overtime for time and a half or even double time.  You may be speaking of newly hired employees but thats not the average worker, nor does it include benefits & union overhead costs.

The total cost of the average auto worker is $72 or $73 per person including salary and benefits.  Thats extremely high.  I agree on corporate greed and outrageous salaries and bonuses of greedy execs.  The problems is multifactorial.  The industry needs an overhaul to compete.  (Plus a better product with improved fuel efficiency).  I think HH6 is on to something about the green agenda too. 

If an auto company files for bankrupcy, the union agreements can be renegotiated.  Executive salaries and bonuses can also be redesigned. 

Its good to see many democrats and republicans opposing another taxpayor bailout.  Perhaps there are other ways the government can help the auto industry...but giving them our $ to run the same system is illogical.

[shootfighter1]

http://rightvoices.com/2008/11/18/average-total-compensation-for-a-big-three-autoworker-is-7321-an-hour-toyota-honda-and-nissan-pay-a-still-generous-4420-an-hour-in-total-compensation-%e2%80%94-a-cost-edge-of-nearly-40/

Average cost of a US big 3 auto worker is $73.21 whereas total cost of a toyota, honda, nissan auto employee is $44.20.  Thats a 40% difference in cost, which is passed on to the product.

I'd like to see a comparison of executive salaries and bonuses too.  Both are an issue IMO!

[Decker]

http://rightvoices.com/2008/11/18/average-total-compensation-for-a-big-three-autoworker-is-7321-an-hour-toyota-honda-and-nissan-pay-a-still-generous-4420-an-hour-in-total-compensation-%e2%80%94-a-cost-edge-of-nearly-40/

Average cost of a US big 3 auto worker is $73.21 whereas total cost of a toyota, honda, nissan auto employee is $44.20.  Thats a 40% difference is cost, which is passed on to the product.

I'd like to see a comparison of executive salaries and bonuses too.  Both are an issue IMO!

In at least one case last year, workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies.

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.

Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. are not far behind Toyota and UAW pay levels. Comparable wages have long been one way foreign companies fight off UAW organizing efforts.

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

[OzmO]

Something else i don't get.  how it that it cost 70$ an hour but workers are only paid $30? 

Who gets the other $40?

[MRDUMPLING]

In at least one case last year, workers for a foreign automaker for the first time averaged more in base pay and bonuses than UAW members working for domestic automakers, according to an economist for the Center for Automotive Research and figures supplied to the Free Press by auto companies.

In that instance, Toyota Motor Corp. gave workers at its largest U.S. plant bonuses of $6,000 to $8,000, boosting the average pay at the Georgetown, KY, plant to the equivalent of $30 an hour. That compares with a $27 hourly average for UAW workers, most of whom did not receive profit-sharing checks last year. Toyota would not provide a U.S. average, but said its 7,000-worker Georgetown plant is representative of its U.S. operations.

Honda Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. are not far behind Toyota and UAW pay levels. Comparable wages have long been one way foreign companies fight off UAW organizing efforts.

http://www.aftermarketnews.com/Item/28594/uaw_losing_pay_edge_foreign_automakers_bonuses_boost_wages_in_us_plants_as_detroit_car_companies_struggle.aspx

Profit sharing checks...so if the Big 3 aren't making a profit then workers don't get a check.  Besides that's bonus pay, not a set pay or promotion for workers.  That article is a little skewed.  The employess will not continue making that bonus money if the profit is not the same the next year.  I think it's very important to note that there is a reason that foreign companies fight off the UAW, I think it would be the cost issue.  Nobody here has a problem with the working man; it's simply an issue with both management and the UAW which is a problem the way it has been run.  I'm more inclined to believe guys like Troponin that have lived in that type of enviroment than any of us that is looking outside in. 

[shootfighter1]

Yes, troponin posted some good info about the unions in a prior thread.