Author Topic: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!  (Read 2879 times)

Soul Crusher

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2008, 09:54:31 AM »
You are very incorrect about WW2.  

"the Russians were only good...."

The Russians had better tanks, better artillery, and larger army and had been fighting the Germans for 4 years on a 2 thousand mile front.

The real war, was the eastern front.  We had roughly 50 divisions in Europe at the end of the war.  Russia had over 150.

I'm not saying we would have surely lost, I'm saying to beat them would have been unlikely.  

They had quantity not quality.  Their good tanks only came out at the end.

They threw their men away like garbage in that war to be fodder.  Many of their men were not even given guns and told to take them off the dead soldiers. 

OzmO

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2008, 10:07:03 AM »
They had quantity not quality.  Their good tanks only came out at the end.

They threw their men away like garbage in that war to be fodder.  Many of their men were not even given guns and told to take them off the dead soldiers. 


Zukov (soviet General of Central Army) sacrificed many men in the battle for Berlin at Sealow heights because Stalin was threatening to sack him as he put him in competition with 2 other soviet armies north and south of him.

Your statements about ww2 Russia show how much you really don't know about ww2 as you seem to be confusing them with present day Russian forces.

The Russian t-34 was considered by many to be the best tank in ww2.  They also had heavy tanks like the JS2 with a 120mm gun.  And they had just came out with the JS3 the precursor to the t-55.

They beat the best army in the world, the Germans, and had a large seasoned well trained and experience army, with large number of equipment.


We had an upgraded m-4 which still was a tin can (nick named Zippo because it lit up every time it got struck) and just a few new pershings tanks. 

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2008, 10:16:27 AM »
the soviets only started rolling out these superior tanks towards the end. and the reason they beat the germans was due to many factors, but not because the russian were the superior fighting force. although by '45 they were certainly getting there

OzmO

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2008, 10:26:38 AM »
the soviets only started rolling out these superior tanks towards the end. and the reason they beat the germans was due to many factors, but not because the russian were the superior fighting force. although by '45 they were certainly getting there

I think the Germans, had they not been engaged in a 2 front war, had the oil fields in Romania, would have been able to handle the Russians better.   But they weren't in that situation.   By 1944 the Germans were done.  That's why the Russians were arguably the most powerful military force on earth in 1944.

BTW the T-34 came out in 1940.  Before that they had the KV1  both of which outclassed the Mark 3 & 4 of the time.

the T-34 was so impactive on the battlefield that the Germans came up with the Mark 5, Panther who's sloped armor was directly inspired form the t-34.   The German Pather was the toerh tank thats argued to be the best of ww2, if you don't take the resources it took to make one into account or the follies it had being rushed into battle in the the battle of Kursk.

Soul Crusher

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2008, 10:34:18 AM »
I think the Germans, had they not been engaged in a 2 front war, had the oil fields in Romania, would have been able to handle the Russians better.   But they weren't in that situation.   By 1944 the Germans were done.  That's way the Russians were arguably the most powerful military force on earth in 1944.

BTW the T-34 came out in 1940.  Before that they had the KV1  both of which outclassed the Mark 3 & 4 of the time.

the T-34 was so impactive on the battlefield that the Germans came up with the Mark 5, Panther who's sloped armor was directly inspired form the t-34.   The German Pather was the toerh tank thats argued to be the best of ww2, if you don't take the resources it took to make one into account or the follies it had being rushed into battle in the the battle of Kursk.

Man for Man the Germans were a better fighting force.  The Russians had the quantity and experience of dealing with the cold winters.  Many Germans literally froze to death.   

OzmO

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2008, 10:41:15 AM »
Man for Man the Germans were a better fighting force.  The Russians had the quantity and experience of dealing with the cold winters.  Many Germans literally froze to death.   

1 book i have has the ratio at:

1 German worth 20 Russian Soldiers
1 German worth 4 American Soldiers

But what needs to be considered is that the Germans were largely on the defensive from 42 on.

Soul Crusher

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #31 on: November 21, 2008, 10:44:18 AM »
1 book i have has the ratio at:

1 German worth 20 Russian Soldiers
1 German worth 4 American Soldiers

But what needs to be considered is that the Germans were largely on the defensive from 42 on.

The German soldiers had years of training while many of the US GI's and Russians did not.

Its really a sin how many wasted lives there were on the Eastern front. 

The gang raping of women as a tactic by the Russians which is coming out now is also truly disturbing.   

headhuntersix

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #32 on: November 21, 2008, 10:50:23 AM »
Good debate but lets look at the bottom line. The Germans could not out produce the Soviets or the Western Allies. The King Tiger is a great tank but its like a swiss watch vs a casio...u can mass produce a billion casio's but u have to take great care with a great swiss watch. Lets look at the US. The Chinese have a bigger millitary and the Soviets did  as well..but we make everybody look like children. The things we can do..logistically, our navy etc. Its the Nco's,  our ridiculously exact planning etc. We train our officers better, our troops have better baseline equipment. Are there things out there that could be done better sure, We're shit canning the M-16 family of weapons, hopefully the M-9 will go as well...but our guys are better trained and prepared. Unless ur prepared to kill everybody, nobody wins and insurgency and we're winning in Iraq. Since 1989...there has never been a more powerful force.
L

OzmO

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #33 on: November 21, 2008, 10:50:45 AM »
The German soldiers had years of training while many of the US GI's and Russians did not.

Its really a sin how many wasted lives there were on the Eastern front. 

The gang raping of women as a tactic by the Russians which is coming out now is also truly disturbing.   

Yeah, i've read  about it.  It was the soldiers that came to mop up after the main force moved on that did most of it from what i understand.

Another thing about the German army is the way it was organized down to squads and the equipment they had.  I don't remember off hand, but it was far more effective than America's army.

however, one thing the Germans didn't have was the American attitude that said, "I think I could run this company, squad, platoon, better then you"  when a German commander/officer etc. died on the battlefield the German units often lost their effectiveness because they lacked th ability to think outside of their command structure while the Americans adapted and someone always took over and led.

headhuntersix

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2008, 10:54:12 AM »
Had the German had two more years of production and fine tuning, maybe they could have won. WW2 comes down to soooooooo many would coulda shoulda's. There are so many turning points, weather, delays, small decisions....etc. I'm a huge fan of German armor and the SS formations, great troops and equipment but u can't overcome thousands of T-34's and millions of troops.

Ozomo i would't completely agree. They had good small unit leadership but much of the big decisions were made politically and that hamstrung their efforts.
L

OzmO

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2008, 10:55:54 AM »
Good debate but lets look at the bottom line. The Germans could not out produce the Soviets or the Western Allies. The King Tiger is a great tank but its like a swiss watch vs a casio...u can mass produce a billion casio's but u have to take great care with a great swiss watch. Lets look at the US. The Chinese have a bigger millitary and the Soviets did  as well..but we make everybody look like children. The things we can do..logistically, our navy etc. Its the Nco's,  our ridiculously exact planning etc. We train our officers better, our troops have better baseline equipment. Are there things out there that could be done better sure, We're shit canning the M-16 family of weapons, hopefully the M-9 will go as well...but our guys are better trained and prepared. Unless ur prepared to kill everybody, nobody wins and insurgency and we're winning in Iraq. Since 1989...there has never been a more powerful force.

I agree.  Economic/resources are a factor.   The Mongols were a terrifically trained and disciplined army.  So were the other preindustrial armies i mentioned.  No one stood against them.  Much like no one can stand against us now.  But then again, we need to understand who we are fighting:  Arabs on a flat land.  1 Us soldier is easily worth 50 arab soldiers.  

Yeah, King Tiger, beautiful tank.  Still haven't gone to Louisville yet.   :(

OzmO

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2008, 11:00:06 AM »
Had the German had two more years of production and fine tuning, maybe they could have won. WW2 comes down to soooooooo many would coulda shoulda's. There are so many turning points, weather, delays, small decisions....etc. I'm a huge fan of German armor and the SS formations, great troops and equipment but u can't overcome thousands of T-34's and millions of troops.

Ozomo i would't completely agree. They had good small unit leadership but much of the big decisions were made politically and that hamstrung their efforts.

I was mainly talking about small unit leadership.  Platoons, squads and companies.  Not Army, Corp or even divisional.

What do you think were Hitlers main mistakes?

I think some were:

Dunkirk
Kursk
Stalingrad
Ardennes
Indecision on Moscow
Opening a second front with France and England


BTW  you got the book  Tigers in Combat?   It has unit diaries in it and about 200 pics.

headhuntersix

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2008, 11:04:02 AM »
Stalingrad...u take Moscow and Leningrad and then turn when ur ready IN THE SPRING u go after the other. No Stalingrad...No Kursk. I never would have stopped at Dunkirk. No miracle at Dunkirk...no Battle of Britain (maybe) and u can launch Sea Lion when u have moscow.
L

Soul Crusher

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2008, 11:05:49 AM »
I was mainly talking about small unit leadership.  Platoons, squads and companies.  Not Army, Corp or even divisional.

What do you think were Hitlers main mistakes?

I think some were:

Dunkirk
Kursk
Stalingrad
Ardennes
Indecision on Moscow
Opening a second front with France and England


BTW  you got the book  Tigers in Combat?   It has unit diaries in it and about 200 pics.

There are many books about the many failures of Hitler and how the Germans could have won WWII.

JOHN MATRIX

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2008, 11:44:31 AM »
There are many books about the many failures of Hitler and how the Germans could have won WWII.
i love reading this stuff!

bottom line is, they had the greatest most effective force out there but hitler simply tried to do too much at once. its incredible he got as far as he did, all things considered. that says alot about how great of a force they really were.

loco

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2008, 12:12:49 PM »
No, if a small number of gays keep their mouths and asses STFU in orde to keep cohesion amongst the 99% of the other soldiers, they should be booted out of the military.  

Unit cohesion and discipline is of the the utmost importance, not social engineering of the military fighting men and women.  


His troops preferred to serve with him because they thought he was their best chance to get home alive. Both British and American officers had noted the "softness" and lack of discipline in the II Corps under Fredendall. Patton required all personnel to wear steel helmets, even physicians in the operating wards, and required his troops to wear the unpopular lace-up canvas leggings and neckties (the leggings prevented injury from scorpions, spiders and rats which would climb up under soldiers' trousers). A system of fines was introduced to ensure all personnel shaved daily and observed other uniform requirements. While these measures did not make Patton popular, they did tend to restore a sense of discipline and unit pride that may have been missing. In a play on his nickname, troops joked that it was "his guts and our blood".

The discipline Patton instilled paid off quickly. By mid-March 1943, the counter-offensive of the U.S. II Corps, along with the rest of the British 1st Army, pushed the Germans and Italians eastwards. Meanwhile the British Eighth Army, commanded by General Sir Bernard Law Montgomery, simultaneously pushed them westwards. This effectively squeezed the Germans and Italians into a smaller and smaller portion of Tunisia and out of North Africa altogether by mid-May.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton#North_African_campaign

Soul Crusher

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2008, 12:32:55 PM »
His troops preferred to serve with him because they thought he was their best chance to get home alive. Both British and American officers had noted the "softness" and lack of discipline in the II Corps under Fredendall. Patton required all personnel to wear steel helmets, even physicians in the operating wards, and required his troops to wear the unpopular lace-up canvas leggings and neckties (the leggings prevented injury from scorpions, spiders and rats which would climb up under soldiers' trousers). A system of fines was introduced to ensure all personnel shaved daily and observed other uniform requirements. While these measures did not make Patton popular, they did tend to restore a sense of discipline and unit pride that may have been missing. In a play on his nickname, troops joked that it was "his guts and our blood".

The discipline Patton instilled paid off quickly. By mid-March 1943, the counter-offensive of the U.S. II Corps, along with the rest of the British 1st Army, pushed the Germans and Italians eastwards. Meanwhile the British Eighth Army, commanded by General Sir Bernard Law Montgomery, simultaneously pushed them westwards. This effectively squeezed the Germans and Italians into a smaller and smaller portion of Tunisia and out of North Africa altogether by mid-May.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_S._Patton#North_African_campaign

Patton is my favorite historical figure of all time.  The man was truly amazing.  He was a prick and a ball buster, but an amazing person all around.

 

loco

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2008, 12:53:02 PM »
I was mainly talking about small unit leadership.  Platoons, squads and companies.  Not Army, Corp or even divisional.

What do you think were Hitlers main mistakes?

I think some were:

Dunkirk
Kursk
Stalingrad
Ardennes
Indecision on Moscow
Opening a second front with France and England


BTW  you got the book  Tigers in Combat?   It has unit diaries in it and about 200 pics.

Killing and running off Ashkenazi Jews instead of enlisting their brains and skills.  

Ashkenazi Jews were concentrated in Germany at the time and they are arguably the most intelligent people in the world.  They score the highest on IQ tests, they have a noted history of achievement in western societies and they have won a large number of Nobel prizes.  Albert Einstein was an Ashkenazi Jew.  

Jewish Genius
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/jewish-genius-10855?page=all

THE LESSONS OF THE ASHKENAZIM
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/2006_06_17_thenewrepublic.html

loco

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2008, 01:06:18 PM »
Patton is my favorite historical figure of all time.  The man was truly amazing.  He was a prick and a ball buster, but an amazing person all around.

 

Patton's tha man.

240 is Back

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2008, 01:08:07 PM »
The gang raping of women as a tactic by the Russians which is coming out now is also truly disturbing.  

I don't understand - how was this an effective war tactic?

Soul Crusher

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2008, 01:08:16 PM »
Patton's tha man.

Many people dont know that he missed an Olympic medal in the pentathalon because in the pistol challenge they could not figure out if he missed the paper or put two bullets through the same hole.


loco

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2008, 01:13:13 PM »
Many people dont know that he missed an Olympic medal in the pentathalon because in the pistol challenge they could not figure out if he missed the paper or put two bullets through the same hole.



That's cool.  A modern day Robin Hood.    :)

He'd probably knock my teeth out for comparing him to a man in green tights.     ;D

Soul Crusher

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2008, 01:35:02 PM »
I don't understand - how was this an effective war tactic?

It was not a tactic, it was just something those animals did as a practice and method towards the women of wherever they went.


OzmO

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2008, 02:44:33 PM »
Killing and running off Ashkenazi Jews instead of enlisting their brains and skills. 

Ashkenazi Jews were concentrated in Germany at the time and they are arguably the most intelligent people in the world.  They score the highest on IQ tests, they have a noted history of achievement in western societies and they have won a large number of Nobel prizes.  Albert Einstein was an Ashkenazi Jew. 

Jewish Genius
https://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/jewish-genius-10855?page=all

THE LESSONS OF THE ASHKENAZIM
http://pinker.wjh.harvard.edu/articles/media/2006_06_17_thenewrepublic.html

Great point!  Didn't know that

Also, not liberating the Ukrainians but instead oppressing them when they conquered Ukraine

w8tlftr

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Re: OBAMA TO BREAK ANOTHER PROMISE - WON'T END DONT ASK DONT TELL!
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2008, 03:26:19 PM »
Not surprising.

Just because he's a Democrat doesn't mean he's socially liberal.