Morality of Cloning Extinct Species Etc.

[mental_masturbator]

Bay, are you referring to the Jarkov mammoth?  A paper was published, but no suitable DNA was recovered.  There was another mammoth carcass found recently, a small calf called Lubya.  It was so well preserved that CT scanning of it's innards is possible.  Cool stuff (bad pun I know).

A news bit about the sequencing of the mammoth genome is here:http://palaeoblog.blogspot.com/search?q=mammoth

[BayGBM]

I have heard the recent stories of the genome sequencing.  What I have not heard is any additional reporting about the ten year old find in the permafrost or any follow up on the mad scientist who insisted he was going to clone a mammoth despite objections from his peers.  If it were possible, I suspect he, or someone else would have done it by now.  I do not believe it is possible and am waiting to be proven wrong.

Does anyone else remember that funny looking red headed woman, Brigitte Boisselier, from the Raelians sect who claimed to have cloned a baby girl and named her "Eve."  The Raelians got a lot of press when they made that claim, but they never produced Eve (or the woman who ostensibly gave birth to her) to the public or scientific community for testing.  Most people now believe it was all a fraud/publicity stunt.

I am wondering why Nordic Superman seems to think cloning extinct species and dead people is possible.  Assuming he is not a child with a vivid imagination, why would anyone with half a brain believe this without substantial evidence?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigitte_Boisselier

[24KT]

Bay, is that her real picture, ...or has it been altered somehow? 

[IFBBwannaB]

About ten years ago, a fully formed woolly mammoth calf was found frozen in the Siberian permafrost.  The scientific community was excited by this find because up until then they had only found fragments and bones from mammoths and from there extrapolated its size, dimension, and other details.  Actual tissue was almost never found.

I followed this story for some time in the press until it fell of the radar screen...  Apparently, a huge block of ice containing the fully preserved and frozen mammoth was carved out of the ground and shipped to an underground lab (essentially a giant freezer) for testing.  Most of the mammoth remains frozen in the  huge block of ice; they have been very careful about keeping most of it preserved.  I once read they used a hair dryer to thaw out one small portion of the block of ice to take tissue samples from the mammoth.

A few months after this discovery, a rogue scientist said he was going to clone the mammoth using tissue samples and modern day elephants to carry the clone(s) to term!  Ethicists slammed the idea, but he said he was going to do it anyway--in a secret lab if necessary--and no one was going to stop him!

Ten years later there is still no clone.

For now, the DNA in tissue samples that old and that frozen are too damaged for us to make use of them.  That may change in the years ahead, but don’t hold your breath waiting for a cloned woolly mammoth or a clone of any other extinct species.

You're just not in the loop, he is building Jurassic Park now, he got lots of Mammoths and dinosaurs he cloned!!

[D-bol]

If it wasn't for politics and religion, we would possibly be far more advanced technologically and intellectually than we are today. We would probably have colonies on Mars already....Issues of morality and (especially) of sin has choked any scientific development in the western world for over 1500 years. It is hugely frustrating.

[Nordic Superman]

This is completely false!  What you are describing is still very much in the realm of science fiction.  If you routinely interacted with the academics and researchers in private industry engaged in this kind of work, you would not be spreading such falsities.  Less Hollywood and more academic journals will cure you of such notions.

Yes, we are able to clone several species of live animals, but cloning extinct animals and humans (live or dead) is still some time off.

Erm... No. Cloning a live human is very much a real possibility... NOW.

Cloning a Woolly Mammoth isn't quite a direct clone, but the technology to do stages of alterations to the genome several thousand genes at a time is possible under techniques developed by Japanese scientists NOW. If this technique can really produce a full Mammoth, who knows until it's done.

I was working from these articles:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/20/science/20mammoth.html?_r=1&hp
http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/sciencetech/cloning-the-woolly-mammoth/4198
http://palaeoblog.blogspot.com/search?q=mammoth

In regards to cloning Homo sapiens:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_cloning

It is also the technique used by Advanced Cell Technology (ACT), the first company to successfully[1] clone early human embryos that stopped at the six cell stage. The process is as follows: an egg cell taken from a donor has its cytoplasm removed. Another cell with the genetic material to be cloned is fused with the original egg cell. In theory, this process, known as somatic cell nuclear transfer, could be applied to human beings.

Moraility of scientists and society not allowing for humans to be cloned doesn't mean it's not a viable possibility:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_cloning#The_current_law_on_human_cloning

[Nordic Superman]

For now, the DNA in tissue samples that old and that frozen are too damaged for us to make use of them.  That may change in the years ahead, but don’t hold your breath waiting for a cloned woolly mammoth or a clone of any other extinct species.

Sorry comrade, the Mammoth (of at least 1 species) genome has been decoded; so this assertion is flat out wrong.

Neanderthal genome sequence soon to be complete also:
http://www.slate.com/id/2205310/

[BayGBM]

Bay, is that her real picture, ...or has it been altered somehow? 

That is her real photo and that was the color of her hair when she was in the press making her claims about cloning Eve.  I recall that shortly after her press conference, Saturday Night Live made a skit of her news conference and it was hilarious!  Maybe someone pulled her aside and told her she looked like a cartoon.  She has since colored her hair several times.  If you do a search for images of her you will find pictures of her as a blonde and a brunette--looking slightly less ridiculous.

[BayGBM]

Erm... No. Cloning a live human is very much a real possibility... NOW.

So, because you ‘read about it on the internet’ it must be true, right?

You are very obviously not a scientist.  Have you ever been in a genetics lab?  I have--as recently as last week.  Cloning is not simply or even primarily a matter of decoding the genome.  I routinely (as in every day) talk to geneticist and engineers who are steep in this kind of research.  Either your sources are correct or mine are.  If your sources are correct (and I am wrong), I only have one question for you: where are the clones?  At some point you have to put up or shut up.

Brigitte Boisselier and the Raelians claimed to have cloned Eve back in 2002.  During that news conference they said they were going to provide proof of their cloning achievement that would satisfy any scientific critic.  They never came forward with any proof; the mother was never identified nor was the supposed baby (clone).  No DNA samples.  No video.  No photos.  Nothing.  As I said, it was all a hoax/publicity stunt.

If cloning a human being were possible, someone would have certainly done it already—and made sure the world knew about it!  Cloning someone who is long since dead is, for now, total science fiction.

You appear eager to see this happen, so you will be glad to know that last month Japanese scientists did manage to create clones from the bodies of mice which have been frozen for 16 years. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7707498.stm

This is remarkable and the layman might think we can now easily clone that frozen iceman that was found several years ago.  No.  It is still a big leap to go from cloning frozen mice to human cloning—dead, live, or frozen.

[Nordic Superman]

So, because you ‘read about it on the internet’ it must be true, right?

You are very obviously not a scientist.  Have you ever been in a genetics lab?  I have--as recently as last week.  Cloning is not simply or even primarily a matter of decoding the genome.  I routinely (as in every day) talk to geneticist and engineers who are steep in this kind of research.  Either your sources are correct or mine are.  If your sources are correct (and I am wrong), I only have one question for you: where are the clones?  At some point you have to put up or shut up.

Brigitte Boisselier and the Raelians claimed to have cloned Eve back in 2002.  During that news conference they said they were going to provide proof of their cloning achievement that would satisfy any scientific critic.  They never came forward with any proof; the mother was never identified nor was the supposed baby (clone).  No DNA samples.  No video.  No photos.  Nothing.  As I said, it was all a hoax/publicity stunt.

If cloning a human being were possible, someone would have certainly done it already—and made sure the world knew about it!  Cloning someone who is long since dead is, for now, total science fiction.

You appear eager to see this happen, so you will be glad to know that last month Japanese scientists did manage to create clones from the bodies of mice which have been frozen for 16 years. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7707498.stm

This is remarkable and the layman might think we can now easily clone that frozen iceman that was found several years ago.  No.  It is still a big leap to go from cloning frozen mice to human cloning—dead, live, or frozen.

Might wanna quit the ad hominem and prove my sources incorrect. You visiting a genetics lab bares little credability to your position.

Stop attacking me personally and prove me wrong. I explain humans haven't been cloned because in the countries that have the technology at their disposal to actually clone humans - it is illegal.

[BayGBM]

I have a better idea: why don’t you prove yourself right by showing us the clones?  Your position that “it is against the law therefore no one will do it” is mocked every minute of every day: jaywalking, murder, rape, speeding, steroids, etc. there is no law that man will not violate. 

This is turning into a silly exchange.  When you have documented evidence of extant human clones, we’ll talk.  Until then, I leave you to your science fiction.  Let me guess, you are a member of the Raelians... you have even less credibility than Brigitte Boisselier!  Farewell. 

[Nordic Superman]

I have a better idea: why don’t you prove yourself right by showing us the clones?  Your position that “it is against the law therefore no one will do it” is mocked every minute of every day: jaywalking, murder, rape, speeding, steroids, etc. there is no law that man will not violate. 

This is turning into a silly exchange.  When you have documented evidence of extant human clones, we’ll talk.  Until then, I leave you to your science fiction.  Let me guess, you are a member of the Raelians... you have even less credibility than Brigitte Boisselier!  Farewell. 

See:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=0008B8F9-AC62-1C75-9B81809EC588EF21
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/17/AR2008011700324.html?hpid=topnews
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1472-6939/5/9

Congratulations on comparing a cutting edge scientific procedure such as cloning to jaywalking...

Aren't you a doctor? Haha...