Mumbai gunmen 'were BRITISH'

[24KT]

Are you referring to Tim McVeigh and the OK. City bombings? I hate white trash too.

I'm refering to the neocons who held power for the last 8 years.

The very ones who took raided and pillaged your national treasury.
The very ones who took a record surplus and turned into into a record deficit.
The very ones who stole America's record prosperity, mortgaged your children's future and left them with a mounting debt
The very ones who shit on the United States Constitution, took away your rights and freedoms,
...and caused many to question if being American still meant the same things anymore.
The very ones who stole the Republican party and tried to steal your country right out from under you.

Hope That Clarifies

[danielson]

I'm refering to the neocons who held power for the last 8 years.

The very ones who took raided and pillaged your national treasury.
The very ones who took a record surplus and turned into into a record deficit.
The very ones who stole America's record prosperity, mortgaged your children's future and left them with a mounting debt
The very ones who shit on the United States Constitution, took away your rights and freedoms,
...and caused many to question if being American still meant the same things anymore.
The very ones who stole the Republican party and tried to steal your country right out from under you.

Hope That Clarifies

Don't call my President a terrorist. Show some God damned respect.

[24KT]

The Danish contract does actually get something done.

It forces immigrants to learn Danish, it forces them to acknowledge Danish laws and practices, such as Women's rights.

I'm not criticizing the Danish contract. I'm sure it serves it purpose. I merely state that such a contract would have done nothing to prevent these attacks, and would have no teeth to punitively address these criminals. Were would you propose that a British government could deport British born, British raised, and British educated British citizens BACK to?

You haven't read Nordic very well if you think he's not critisizing the British system.

That is exactly what he's doing.

He is very critical of the UK society for being a breeding ground for these terrorists.

I have no doubt Nordic feels critical and frustrated by the British society, ...however he expresses it as rage against Islam. If you're pissed off at your boss or co-worker, ...and choose to come home and kick the cat, ...don't expect me to join in on the animal cruelty. I may sympathize, or commiserate with you, over your frustrations with your boss, ...but I won't join in on kicking fluffy, no matter how annoying I may find her, or how many damn hair balls she spits up. That may be a bad analogy, but I think you or others might get it

You on the other hand is a multiculti hugger and a cultural apologist who never seems to critisize the Muslim culture, in some perverted belief that only because the Muslim world was in opposition to Bush, it somehow justifies the wrongs.

I have never been one to subscribe to the adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
There's too much of that shit in the world, and look at what it has brought us... radical islamic fundamentalism.

If I fail to join in on the criticism, it is because most of the "criticism" I see is invalid, and falls predominately along racist and xenophobic lines. I choose not to participate in that insanity. The very few occasions where there is a reasoned, well thought discussion on the subject, ...it invariably veers off into the most vile, racist and xenophobic rhetoric which serves no purpose other than to instill hate, and solidarity to the fear and ignorance. No thanks.
 

Let me be perfectly clear:

No matter if we're referring to everyday Islam or extremist Islamist terrorism, it is still fundamentally wrong.

Because Islam is based on the wrong premises, eg lack of women's rights.

I do not belief that Islam is based on a lack of women's rights. The religion in fact was at one point THE MOST PROGRESSIVE vis-a-vis the issue of women's rights. There is no question in my mind that as it is practiced today, ...especially by the fundamentalists, women's rights are non-existant. Do you actually think that I of all people could possibly be in favour of that?    If you believe that, ...then you really need to give your head a shake. I do believe in women's rights, ...including a woman's right to choose to be invisible if that is what she wants.

[24KT]

Don't call my President a terrorist. Show some God damned respect.

Which president are you refering to? ...the current lame duck one, ...or the new president elect?
Because I only have respect for one of them.

[danielson]

Which president are you refering to? ...the current lame duck one, ...or the new president elect?
Because I only have respect for one of them.

Don't disrespect either one of them. They are the most important people in the world and you sell bogus products over the internet. Who are you to judge them?

[24KT]

Judi, and any other intelligent westernized woman, would have a huge problem with traditional islamic culture and traditions if they were directly subject to the restrictions placed on their women. 

The point is that unless muslims live by western law, attend western/state schools and stop trying to force their traditions into western culture, they should not be allowed to stay in western countries.

Using racial slurs only hurts the debate and forces discussion away from the issue.  In fact, it gives muslim sympathizers some ground to stand on.

BINGO!!!

And that's precisely why I don't involve myself in useless "discussions" about Islam.
When you're forced to dispute the ridiculous, ...you appear as a sympathizer of attrocities.

For the sake of truth, clarity, and understanding, it is possible to defend your opponent and still be opposed to them. Those with "intellectual vigour" (I love that phrase) know this to be true. Without truth or clarity, you end up wasting alot of valueable time running off in the wrong direction... say like making a left into Iraq, instead of a right into Afghanistan.

[tonymctones]

BINGO!!!

And that's precisely why I don't involve myself in useless "discussions" about Islam.
When you're forced to dispute the ridiculous, ...you appear as a sympathizer of attrocities.

For the sake of truth, clarity, and understanding, it is possible to defend your opponent and still be opposed to them. Those with "intellectual vigour" (I love that phrase) know this to be true. Without truth or clarity, you end up wasting alot of valueable time running off in the wrong direction... say like making a left into Iraq, instead of a right into Afghanistan.

when you defend them without condeming or choose not to address it at all you appear as a sympathizer to islamic extremist...this is why many ppl have a problem with regular islamic ppl b/c they dont come out against these idiots

[24KT]

Don't disrespect either one of them. They are the most important people in the world and you sell bogus products over the internet. Who are you to judge them?

You leave me no choice but to dispute your allegation.
I offer up the following up only as proof to dispute the libelous statement you just made.

As it stands, I just finished transcribing a testimonial last night from a long time user of our products.
He's been using them for over a year, and has received excellent result. In order to respect his privacy,
I have deleted his name, his company name, as well as his address, until he can get over to a notary, and have his statement notarized.

Unfortunately, he doesn't own a computer, so I had him dictate his testimonial to me 2 days ago through my conference bridge so I could transcribe it into a document.

[24KT]

when you defend them without condeming or choose not to address it at all you appear as a sympathizer to islamic extremist...this is why many ppl have a problem with regular islamic ppl b/c they dont come out against these idiots

This is a specious argument for the intellectually lacking.
More of the same 'You're either with us or against us" bullshit that has caused your country to almost lose itself.

[tonymctones]

This is a specious argument for the intellectually lacking.
More of the same 'You're either with us or against us" bullshit that has caused your country to almost lose itself.

horse shit...when you believe in something as sacred as your religion and you see some JACKASS going around commiting attrocities in the NAME of YOUR religion you stand up and condemn those actions. Im not saying you have to go fight and kill those retard morons we have our own boys that are more than fuking capable of doing so but you DO come out against those actions.

[24KT]

Can someone delete this spam?

You're the fool that tried to throw a few red herrings into the mix with your unrelated libel in an attempt to commit character assassination.

Now when you get pwned with the FACTS... facts introduced to dispute your allegations, you scream spam??

I'm embarrassed for you! 

[drkaje]

How about doing what Denmark does?

Having a contract for all immigrants to sign where the common practices and rules of the Danish society (eg Women's rights) is written down and that the immigrant promises to follow the laws of Danmark, if not he/she will lose benefits and/or risk getting sent out.

They also have to learn Danish.

Regardless if the terrorists were Brits, I think making clear rules and guidelines would be helpful for everyone, even the immigrants themselves.

That couldn't become law in the US. The ACLU would rather they remain second class citizens and never learn to speak American.

I have a neighbor that moved here in 1955 from Puerto Rico. Still can't speak properly and has never had a decent job.

[24KT]

Thank You. 

[Hedgehog]

I'm not criticizing the Danish contract. I'm sure it serves it purpose. I merely state that such a contract would have done nothing to prevent these attacks, and would have no teeth to punitively address these criminals. Were would you propose that a British government could deport British born, British raised, and British educated British citizens BACK to?

I have no doubt Nordic feels critical and frustrated by the British society, ...however he expresses it as rage against Islam. If you're pissed off at your boss or co-worker, ...and choose to come home and kick the cat, ...don't expect me to join in on the animal cruelty. I may sympathize, or commiserate with you, over your frustrations with your boss, ...but I won't join in on kicking fluffy, no matter how annoying I may find her, or how many damn hair balls she spits up. That may be a bad analogy, but I think you or others might get it

I have never been one to subscribe to the adage "The enemy of my enemy is my friend"
There's too much of that shit in the world, and look at what it has brought us... radical islamic fundamentalism.

If I fail to join in on the criticism, it is because most of the "criticism" I see is invalid, and falls predominately along racist and xenophobic lines. I choose not to participate in that insanity. The very few occasions where there is a reasoned, well thought discussion on the subject, ...it invariably veers off into the most vile, racist and xenophobic rhetoric which serves no purpose other than to instill hate, and solidarity to the fear and ignorance. No thanks.
 

I do not belief that Islam is based on a lack of women's rights. The religion in fact was at one point THE MOST PROGRESSIVE vis-a-vis the issue of women's rights. There is no question in my mind that as it is practiced today, ...especially by the fundamentalists, women's rights are non-existant. Do you actually think that I of all people could possibly be in favour of that?    If you believe that, ...then you really need to give your head a shake. I do believe in women's rights, ...including a woman's right to choose to be invisible if that is what she wants.

You make some pretty valid points jaguar.

Eg, considering the contract.

But there are privileges and benefits that the immigrants will lose if they doesn't follow the contract.

I've seen plenty of posts from Nordic where he's expressed frustration with how the Brits and Europeans are not taking proper action towards Islam, ie how the secular modern society isn't standing the ground when Islamists activists argues for separate law, separate schools, et al.

As for the standard argument of Islam actually improving women's rights at one time:

Yes.

That might be true. But that was a very long time ago. It still doesn't make Islam a religion of equality. Check out some of the anti-women laws in the Koran.

Tell me why it's ok to make fun of Jesus, closet gay priests, and the Christianity, but not ok when a couple of cartoons are published or when an author (Salman Rushdie) publishes a book critical of Islam?

[24KT]

You make some pretty valid points jaguar.

Eg, considering the contract.

But there are privileges and benefits that the immigrants will lose if they doesn't follow the contract.

But the subject of this thread is not about immigrants. Xenophobia shifts the focus onto the immigration red herring.
The subject of the post is about some Mumbai gunmen who happened to be british born, british raised, british, educated, british citizens. That being the case, ...why rail against immigrants. These were not immigrants, they were native sons.

I've seen plenty of posts from Nordic where he's expressed frustration with how the Brits and Europeans are not taking proper action towards Islam, ie how the secular modern society isn't standing the ground when Islamists activists argues for separate law, separate schools, et al.

As for the standard argument of Islam actually improving women's rights at one time:

Yes.

That might be true. But that was a very long time ago. It still doesn't make Islam a religion of equality. Check out some of the anti-women laws in the Koran.

I never said it did, ...however, I choose NOT to judge a religion I freely admit to not being well versed in, by the standard of one of it's books written thousands of years ago. Were I to judge Christians based on the bible, it too would not be a very favourable comparison.

I have Muslim neighbours, friends, and acquaintances. how devout they are... I couldn't say?
If I had to guess, ...I would suspect not very. Of those whom I have observed in passing for whom their devotion to their religion is obvious, ...I have been treated with nothing but the utmost respect. Whether that is because of their character, or the fact that they are in a western secular society, I don't know. But when I look around my city, and my country, I don't recognize the radical extremists who are depicted on the news.

Tell me why it's ok to make fun of Jesus, closet gay priests, and the Christianity, but not ok when a couple of cartoons are published or when an author (Salman Rushdie) publishes a book critical of Islam?

I wasn't aware that Salman Rushie had published a book critical of Islam.
My understanding is he wrote a work of fiction, and fundamentalist clerics saw too many parallels to Islam.
Similar to that other work of fiction by Dan Brown, that saw Catholic bishops, cardinals, and leity frothing at the mouths issuing condemnations and urging the materials be banned.

Personally, I find a world of difference between those who would use satirical humour to make a point,
...and those who would make calculated decisions designed to incite waves and cycles of blood boiling, brain numbing, mind narrowing, hatred, & violence, followed by more of the same.

[Hedgehog]

But the subject of this thread is not about immigrants. Xenophobia shifts the focus onto the immigration red herring.
The subject of the post is about some Mumbai gunmen who happened to be british born, british raised, british, educated, british citizens. That being the case, ...why rail against immigrants. These were not immigrants, they were native sons.

I never said it did, ...however, I choose NOT to judge a religion I freely admit to not being well versed in, by the standard of one of it's books written thousands of years ago. Were I to judge Christians based on the bible, it too would not be a very favourable comparison.

I have Muslim neighbours, friends, and acquaintances. how devout they are... I couldn't say?
If I had to guess, ...I would suspect not very. Of those whom I have observed in passing for whom their devotion to their religion is obvious, ...I have been treated with nothing but the utmost respect. Whether that is because of their character, or the fact that they are in a western secular society, I don't know. But when I look around my city, and my country, I don't recognize the radical extremists who are depicted on the news.

I wasn't aware that Salman Rushie had published a book critical of Islam.
My understanding is he wrote a work of fiction, and fundamentalist clerics saw too many parallels to Islam.
Similar to that other work of fiction by Dan Brown, that saw Catholic bishops, cardinals, and leity frothing at the mouths issuing condemnations and urging the materials be banned.

Personally, I find a world of difference between those who would use satirical humour to make a point,
...and those who would make calculated decisions designed to incite waves and cycles of blood boiling, brain numbing, mind narrowing, hatred, & violence, followed by more of the same.

Well, lets say the thread derailed.

I'm full aware of that, the situation in Bombay is an event in itself.

But I think the discussion is interesting and relevant.

Especially relevant to discuss the flaws of Islam in a correct manner so white supremacists, white thrash and anti-intellectuals doesn't steal the agenda with their bullshit.

As for Salman Rushdie: His book The Satanic Verses delivers critisism of Islam and it eventually led Ayatollah Khomenei to set a fatwa - a holy order - to have him killed.

Claiming that it was only the fundamentals who saw too many parallells is wishful thinking on your part I'm afraid.

As for your neighbors: How many of the male neighbors will shake your hand? How many of the females will shake male hands?

Do you really think the girls in the Muslim families of your neighbors have as much freedom as their brothers?

I've said before that I think that Obama's religiousity is a big negative in my opinion.

It shows me that he believes in something that is outdated, and is based on what I think is just a big hoax.


I doubt you will find posts from Nordic where he praises Christians either.

But you seem to be a big apologist.

[danielson]

You're the fool that tried to throw a few red herrings into the mix with your unrelated libel in an attempt to commit character assassination.

Now when you get pwned with the FACTS... facts introduced to dispute your allegations, you scream spam??

I'm embarrassed for you! 

I don't know anything about facts, I didn't read it.

[24KT]

I don't know anything about facts, I didn't read it.

So you admit to having no knowledge of the facts, and admit to not even having bothered to read it,
...yet you can quickly point to and characterize any dispute of your allegations as nothing more than spam?

That's rich! 

[danielson]

So you admit to having no knowledge of the facts, and admit to not even having bothered to read it,
...yet you can quickly point to and characterize any dispute of your allegations as nothing more than spam?

That's rich! 

I have read things about "gas pills" before. They are indeed a scam, no matter what your non-computer having buddy(how convenient) says. You are black so Hugo lets you do whatever you want. Rons rule is no spamming the board with your stupid products, are you that stupid you can't understand that?

[danielson]

Just stop deleting my posts you unemployed piece of shit.

[24KT]

Well, lets say the thread derailed.

I'm full aware of that, the situation in Bombay is an event in itself.

But I think the discussion is interesting and relevant.

Especially relevant to discuss the flaws of Islam in a correct manner so white supremacists, white thrash and anti-intellectuals doesn't steal the agenda with their bullshit.

it's not just limited to white supremacists, or white trash... it's any racist, biggotted xenophobic fascist, regardless of their race or nationality.

As for Salman Rushdie: His book The Satanic Verses delivers critisism of Islam and it eventually led Ayatollah Khomenei to set a fatwa - a holy order - to have him killed.

Claiming that it was only the fundamentals who saw too many parallells is wishful thinking on your part I'm afraid.

The name of the Ayatollah who ordered the fatwa momentarily escaped me, so I figured I'd be safe with 'fundamentalist cleric'. 

As for your neighbors: How many of the male neighbors will shake your hand? How many of the females will shake male hands?

That thought has never even entered my mind before. now that I think about, I can recall times when I've been introduced to and met people of Muslim faith, and shaking hands has never been an issue. Thhere's never been any hesitation, or awkwardness that I can even recall. As for Muslim women who will shake a man's hands... I don't know? All the muslim women I know are very westernized. The only one I knew personally who even wore muslim garb was a woman who converted to Islam. She was originally a catholic of portuguese descent. Her mother is portuguese and as western as they come, so is her grandmother, and her entire family. She instead chose Islam as her religion, so at 17 she chose to convert. She's a sweet kid and is very happy, and interacts with everyone around her as far as I could tell. I've never seen or noticed anything odd about her except her choice to cover herself from head to toe in layers and layers of clothing. She doesn't wear a veil across her face though.

Do you really think the girls in the Muslim families of your neighbors have as much freedom as their brothers?

Heck NO!!!! But then again, I don't know very many girls in ANY family, regardless of their nationality, religion, etc., that enjoy as much freedom as their brothers.

I've said before that I think that Obama's religiousity is a big negative in my opinion.

It shows me that he believes in something that is outdated, and is based on what I think is just a big hoax.

I personally don't find Obama as one who comes off as someone with a great deal of "religiousity".
Or as Bill Maher would say, ...he doesn't strike me as too "Religulous". I think he taps into philosophies
(granted some may be spiritual in nature) that have taken root and have served mankind well over the centuries.
hmmm that reminds me... I still have yet to see that movie.

I doubt you will find posts from Nordic where he praises Christians either.

Truth be told, ...I try not to read Nordic's posts.

But you seem to be a big apologist.

I just don't allow myself to get worked up over trivialities that at the end of the day don't mean a darn thing.
If that's an apologist, ...well then, ...I apologize. 

[tonymctones]

why dont you respond to my post jag or im i to ignorant and not intellectual enough for you?

[24KT]

why dont you respond to my post jag or im i to ignorant and not intellectual enough for you?

1^st   What post are you referring to? I thought I had already responded to it
2^nd   Yes you are, ...but I'm feeling charitable these days.     

[IFBBwannaB]

why dont you respond to my post jag or im i to ignorant and not intellectual enough for you?

All she does is scam people into buying pills that doesn't exist and make them think she have something that works in her skull...its the scam artist hat trick! 3 in a row!

BTW aren't women supposed to STFU according to Islam? Have their clit removed and so on? 

[24KT]

All she does is scam people into buying pills that doesn't exist and make them think she have something that works in her skull...its the scam artist hat trick! 3 in a row!

BTW aren't women supposed to STFU according to Islam? Have their clit removed and so on? 

If I could scam people into buying pills that didn't even exist, ...and have them coming back for more for 3 yrs,
...do you think I'd be wasting my time selling $2 gas pills? I'd be selling them $5 million dollar condos, $10 million dollar yachts, $500 million dollar estates! I'd be on Wall Street, or even better, I'd be the Fed, selling a $750 billion dollar bailout! 

ps: Learn to type English. I had to think much too hard to try to figure out what you were even trying to say.