Author Topic: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?  (Read 14412 times)

loco

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2008, 01:14:06 PM »
no evil has been done so fully and passionately than that perpatrated under religious convictions.and faith is the great cop-out the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.

Are you going to go through every thread and post the same thing?  ::)

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=248948.msg3538886#msg3538886

big L dawg

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2008, 01:16:08 PM »
Are you going to go through every thread and post the same thing?  ::)

http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=248948.msg3538886#msg3538886

you believe in a book that has sticks turning into snakes and you think I'm the one that needs help
DAWG

loco

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2008, 01:24:03 PM »
you believe in a book that has sticks turning into snakes and you think I'm the one that needs help

I asked you a question.  I never said you need help.

big L dawg

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2008, 01:27:35 PM »
I asked you a question.  I never said you need help.

oh ok yes I'll post what I feel.sometimes more than once.
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laurion

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2008, 04:25:22 PM »
no evil has been done so fully and passionately than that perpatrated under religious convictions.and faith is the great cop-out the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence.

as I already said...... "Spiritualism is inherently good it's religion that causes war......."

MCWAY

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2008, 11:50:04 AM »
as I already said...... "Spiritualism is inherently good it's religion that causes war......."

Religion doesn’t cause war. It is merely a vehicle through which wars can be started.

laurion

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2008, 04:41:28 PM »
Religion doesn’t cause war. It is merely a vehicle through which wars can be started.

That sounds like fancy talk for religion causes war, explain how that's different.

Hedgehog

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2008, 05:27:40 PM »
A couple of fellas, eg Metushelach and Noach, got real old.

I'm talking several hundred years old here.

That's a big contradiction or difficulty.


Another thing that just doesn't add up is the whole Jesus going from being a little infant to being a grown man.

What's up with that - whatever happened during his childhood and teens?

How can we even know that the baby and the grown man is the same bloke?

Then there's the story about how Moses received the Ten commandments.

How the hell is that supposed to be known?

Only one guy was there to see it - Moses.

And he didn't write anything in the Bible from what I know.

So some guys were brought visions by angels and then later wrote them down.

But how can we all know that they weren't lying their asses off?

At the church meet in Nicea several pieces in the Bible were thrown out and some were included.

There are plenty of difficulties with the whole setup of the Bible IMO.
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ATHEIST

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2008, 06:23:09 PM »
A couple of fellas, eg Metushelach and Noach, got real old.

I'm talking several hundred years old here.

That's a big contradiction or difficulty.


Another thing that just doesn't add up is the whole Jesus going from being a little infant to being a grown man.

What's up with that - whatever happened during his childhood and teens?

How can we even know that the baby and the grown man is the same bloke?

Then there's the story about how Moses received the Ten commandments.

How the hell is that supposed to be known?

Only one guy was there to see it - Moses.

And he didn't write anything in the Bible from what I know.

So some guys were brought visions by angels and then later wrote them down.

But how can we all know that they weren't lying their asses off?

At the church meet in Nicea several pieces in the Bible were thrown out and some were included.

There are plenty of difficulties with the whole setup of the Bible IMO.


 great questions, i would love to know what happened also.
the Bible is collection of book that were basically allowed to be included because it fit the agenda correct? supposedly there were books that contradicted the direction in which people in power wanted it to focus upon no?

Hedgehog

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2008, 04:31:09 AM »
great questions, i would love to know what happened also.
the Bible is collection of book that were basically allowed to be included because it fit the agenda correct? supposedly there were books that contradicted the direction in which people in power wanted it to focus upon no?

Regarding how the books came about - Protestants are critical of Catholics for several reasons, eg the Pope's supreme position.

Some Protestants doesn't even think that Catholics are real Christians.

But they accept the very Bible that the Catholic church decided on during a few church meets?

That just doesn't make any sense either.

Holy Bible?

Regardless if we're Christians or not, how can we even begin to be certain that all parts of the Bible are "legit" when we know how it was decided?

If I were a Christian, I'd be very sceptical about the Bible as a source, and I would use it very carefully.
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loco

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2008, 05:51:21 AM »
Regarding how the books came about - Protestants are critical of Catholics for several reasons, eg the Pope's supreme position.

Some Protestants doesn't even think that Catholics are real Christians.

But they accept the very Bible that the Catholic church decided on during a few church meets?

That just doesn't make any sense either.

Holy Bible?

Regardless if we're Christians or not, how can we even begin to be certain that all parts of the Bible are "legit" when we know how it was decided?

If I were a Christian, I'd be very sceptical about the Bible as a source, and I would use it very carefully.

Hedgehog,
Protestants do not accept the very Bible that the Catholic church decided on.

The "Catholic" Bible contains many more books which Protestants do not accept as the cannon, and those books are not found in the "Protestant" Bible.  So Protestants made their own decision on that one and came up with new translations from the original Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, not from the Latin version translated by the Roman Catholic Church.

Also, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, Protestant churches and leaders encourage all Christians to read their own Bible and interpret it themselves, with the help of the Holy Spirit.  Christians are encouraged to ask their leaders questions if they want to, but leaders make it very clear that they are fallible men and not the final authority.

Butterbean

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2008, 06:45:33 AM »
That sounds like fancy talk for religion causes war, explain how that's different.
I think an analogy that might be used is that guns don't kill people, people kill people?

A gun doesn't stalk around a neighborhood on it's own later shooting someone in the head.  A person holding the gun and firing the gun shoots the person and kills them.

Religion itself doesn't cause a war, but people that believe in it, or misinterpret it do...maybe giving their reasons for starting the war as pertaining to something in their religion.
R

Butterbean

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #62 on: December 11, 2008, 06:57:45 AM »
A couple of fellas, eg Metushelach and Noach, got real old.

I'm talking several hundred years old here.

That's a big contradiction or difficulty.


You can accept or reject, but that's usually explained by sin having not yet infiltrating the earth as much as it has now.  God made Adam and Eve perfect (and w/free will) and then when they sinned sin entered the earth.  Over time sickness and diseases and death permeated more and more in a progressive type manner.

If the bible is a bunch of hooey, it would have been quite easy to leave out statements of a dude living to 969. 




Another thing that just doesn't add up is the whole Jesus going from being a little infant to being a grown man.

What's up with that - whatever happened during his childhood and teens?




I would love to know that stuff also!  There's only one reference of Jesus in his teens in the bible as far as I know....maybe He was like 12.




Then there's the story about how Moses received the Ten commandments.

How the hell is that supposed to be known?

Only one guy was there to see it - Moses.

And he didn't write anything in the Bible from what I know.


Pretty sure he wrote the first 5 books of the O.T.
R

MCWAY

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #63 on: December 11, 2008, 07:17:54 AM »
That sounds like fancy talk for religion causes war, explain how that's different.

World Wars I and II had little to do with one’s religious belief. Did the Japanese hit Pearl Harbor, because we were Christians? Did we return the favor, with the bomb on Hiroshima, because they weren’t?

Acquisition of wealth and/or power, greed, or settling personal vendettas is the culprit for war. Whether one uses the vehicle of religion to attain those goals is another matter.

MCWAY

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #64 on: December 11, 2008, 07:34:53 AM »
A couple of fellas, eg Metushelach and Noach, got real old.

I'm talking several hundred years old here.

That's a big contradiction or difficulty.

Not really!! You'll notice that the lifespan of the people in the OT drop steadily, after the Flood. So, it appears that, after 3 or 4 generations, you get to people barely cracking the century mark; whereas, beforehand living several hundred years was common.

Another thing that just doesn't add up is the whole Jesus going from being a little infant to being a grown man.

What's up with that - whatever happened during his childhood and teens?

How can we even know that the baby and the grown man is the same bloke?

We know that He grew up working as a carpenter. And, we get a brief blurb about His life at age 12.

Who exactly is going to chronicle the life of a teenage carpenter in Nazareth, and what would be the motivation for doing such? Jesus didn't even start His ministry, until He was about 30.


Then there's the story about how Moses received the Ten commandments.

How the hell is that supposed to be known?

Only one guy was there to see it - Moses.

And he didn't write anything in the Bible from what I know.


Ummmm.......there are those first 5 books of the Bible, the Pentateuch (aka the books of Moses).


So some guys were brought visions by angels and then later wrote them down.

But how can we all know that they weren't lying their asses off?

Their movitation for lying would be..............


At the church meet in Nicea several pieces in the Bible were thrown out and some were included.

There are plenty of difficulties with the whole setup of the Bible IMO.


I thought the parts that got chucked were those that were shown to be at odds with the historical teachings of Jesus Christ. If there's some reason why those should have stayed, I'd like to know.

MCWAY

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #65 on: December 11, 2008, 08:18:15 AM »
great questions, i would love to know what happened also.
the Bible is collection of book that were basically allowed to be included because it fit the agenda correct? supposedly there were books that contradicted the direction in which people in power wanted it to focus upon no?

What agenda would that be?

You forget that the reason we have Protestants, in the first place, is not because somebody found some secret books, which clashed with the books of the Bible. Instead, Protestantism gained its ground because, when people read the Bible (the 66 books that we’ve come to know) for themselves, they saw the HUGE gap, between what the Bible really said and what the Catholic Church claimed it said.

-   Justification by faith, not works
-   God, through Christ, NOT A PRIEST, forgiving sins
-   Mary, not a figure to be worshipped, AT ALL.
-   No purgatory, from which dead relatives can be sprung (for the right amount of coin, of course).

Those are just a small sample of what people found out FOR THEMSELVES, once they got to read Scripture, instead of having it read to them in Latin.

ATHEIST

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2008, 06:14:23 PM »
What agenda would that be?

You forget that the reason we have Protestants, in the first place, is not because somebody found some secret books, which clashed with the books of the Bible. Instead, Protestantism gained its ground because, when people read the Bible (the 66 books that we’ve come to know) for themselves, they saw the HUGE gap, between what the Bible really said and what the Catholic Church claimed it said.

-   Justification by faith, not works
-   God, through Christ, NOT A PRIEST, forgiving sins
-   Mary, not a figure to be worshipped, AT ALL.
-   No purgatory, from which dead relatives can be sprung (for the right amount of coin, of course).

Those are just a small sample of what people found out FOR THEMSELVES, once they got to read Scripture, instead of having it read to them in Latin.

  wow thats super intersting...as for the agenda i mentioned it was a reference to the general direction that Christians thought would be appropriate for their cause/belief.
  so much to learn, its hugely intimidating.

ATHEIST

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2008, 06:17:22 PM »
Regarding how the books came about - Protestants are critical of Catholics for several reasons, eg the Pope's supreme position.

Some Protestants doesn't even think that Catholics are real Christians.

But they accept the very Bible that the Catholic church decided on during a few church meets?

That just doesn't make any sense either.

Holy Bible?

Regardless if we're Christians or not, how can we even begin to be certain that all parts of the Bible are "legit" when we know how it was decided?

If I were a Christian, I'd be very sceptical about the Bible as a source, and I would use it very carefully.

thats what i dont understand, how can people be certain that under no circumstances the Bible is legit. also there are numerous different fractions of Christianity but for the most part they disagree w/each other. i know i am very ignorant when it comes to this..

Hedgehog

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #68 on: December 12, 2008, 01:11:48 AM »
Not really!! You'll notice that the lifespan of the people in the OT drop steadily, after the Flood. So, it appears that, after 3 or 4 generations, you get to people barely cracking the century mark; whereas, beforehand living several hundred years was common.

We know that He grew up working as a carpenter. And, we get a brief blurb about His life at age 12.

Who exactly is going to chronicle the life of a teenage carpenter in Nazareth, and what would be the motivation for doing such? Jesus didn't even start His ministry, until He was about 30.


Quote
Ummmm.......there are those first 5 books of the Bible, the Pentateuch (aka the books of Moses).
But how do we know they were written by Moses?


Quote
I thought the parts that got chucked were those that were shown to be at odds with the historical teachings of Jesus Christ. If there's some reason why those should have stayed, I'd like to know.
How "holy" is a book (The Bible) when a church meeting where lots of people have been involved decides on what parts to keep and what parts to throw out?

Both you and I know that the Church have been wrong many times. Eg, the Pope has apologized for past crimes of the Catholic Church.

So how do we know that the meeting when they decided on the Bible weren't one of those times?

The point I'm trying to make here is not so much to question your faith, but rather I ask how those who are Christians aren't more sceptical of the Bible as a source.
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Shaunie

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2008, 07:14:28 AM »
Not really!! You'll notice that the lifespan of the people in the OT drop steadily, after the Flood. So, it appears that, after 3 or 4 generations, you get to people barely cracking the century mark; whereas, beforehand living several hundred years was common.

MCWAY?  Are you saying that you believe that the characters written about in the early bible books are ;
1) Real people?
2) Lived hundreds of years?

Obviously as a critical thinker you'd have some pretty strong evidence for such a belief.  I mean you reject certain scientific theories because of a lack of convincing evidence, I know you wouldn't just take something like the above purely on faith!  Please share with the forum the evidence so as to silence unbelievers.

Perhaps you could start with evidence for Noah, Moses, Adam etc...  and the evidence for their extended life spans?  I know you'll be keen to share, as I know you wouldn't believe people could live for hundreds of years without proof.

liberalismo

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2008, 06:57:05 PM »
No.  Gen 2:19:  "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air.  He brought them to the man to see what he would name them....."

Genesis 2: 18
And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.


Genesis 1:  26

And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.



You may have missed it but I already answered this.

So why would the two passages say different things and not tell the whole story?

As I said before, Jacob saw Him in veiled form.  God is invisible.  He can take on whatever form He wants if he wants someone to see something.  I see your difficulty w/these verses but they don't preclude Him appearing as "in the whirlwind" or fire etc. imo.

Why would the bible say that Jacob saw him face to face if he simply saw him as wind or some other object? Why use the word "face to face"? How do you know that this doesn't mean face to face literally? What makes the other passage trump this one?

I don't see it as a required statement.

It is required if they wanted to be clear.


Yeah, He's specifically talking about the legal system and not to carry out capital punishment on someone for a crime of which they are falsely accused.

The point is that the verse in Exodus 23:7 makes a distinction between the "pure and innocent" and the not pure and not innocent. How can this be if God considers no one innocent? Why even make a distinction? It would seem like we've got 2 authors here writing down something contradictory, with no divine inspiration guiding it all.
 
Can you link me to your source please?



http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/mosera.html

Plus:
Numbers 33:38
DT 10:6

liberalismo

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2008, 07:13:24 PM »
Thought you'd find this interesting (from apologeticspress.org) also:

"If a wicked man turns from his wickedness, God no longer holds the threat against him. If a righteous man turns from righteousness to wickedness, God withdraws the previously promised blessings. It is precisely because God is immutable that His relationship to men, and/or His treatment of them, varies with the changes in their conduct. When the Scriptures thus speak of “God having repented,” the wording is accommodative (viz., written from a human vantage point). As Samuel Davidson has well said: “When repentance is attributed to God, it implies a change in His mode of dealing with men, such as would indicate on their part a change of purpose” (1843, p. 527). From a human vantage point, we view God’s act(s) as “repentance.” But, in reality, God’s immutable law has not changed one iota; only the response of man to that law has changed. Seen in this light, God cannot be accused of any self-contradictory attributes."

My first question would be: How does Samuel Davidson know that this is what is meant by repentance? By the way that it is used, how can God "repent of evil" that he must do to someone when it is meant that he simply changes his position on how to treat them? "Repent of evil" as used in Jeremaih 18:8 would suggest a regret or some sort of atonement. Also, How can God do "evil"? Is this even possible? Wouldn't this mean that God is not totally good?

Second question: Does god ever regret what he has done?



God created man w/o sin.  Man, through free will chose to sin and sin entered the world. 

Wouldn't the willingness to commit sin be considered a sin? Why weren't Adam and Eve UNWILLING to commit sin? Why didn't they choose NOT to commit sin? Why didn't God make them unwilling to eat of the fruit tree? This would still mean they have total free will, but simply would not be willing to contradict their God.

I don't see how you mean to not affect free will as it is by changing man a little?  It would affect it, right?

No. Going by the bible, Humans are the way that they are because they were made that way by God. Adam and eve were willing to do some things and unwilling to do others because they were made that way by God, Right? Why were they "willing" to sin? Why didn't they just "choose" not to sin? If God changed some thing in their brains that made then CHOOSE NOT to sin, then they have the choice anyway but they CHOOSE not to sin and thus still have freewill.

ALSO, If Humans were made in Gods image, and humans had the capacity to sin and were willing to commit sin, then does this mean that God too has the capacity and willingness to commit sin? Wouldn't this contradict God being totally good and sinless?

And humans still choose to have babies knowing (or assuming) that they will disappoint in the future. 

Humans rarely "choose" to have babies anyway. It's often an accident. I was an accident. My parents did not say "hey, lets go have sex and make a baby". They did it for other reasons. The same is true for perhaps 95% of people on this planet. They were accidents.

If two people KNEW that their children would disappoint them, would they have them if given the choice and being in total control of their behaviors? I doubt it. Maybe they would still want to have children because they are victims of their genetic urges to parent children, but does God have genetic urges that made him want to create humans? If so, how can be be all powerful if he is victim to his various inherent urges?

Maybe, maybe not.  Some say they were great warriors. If Nephilium is a word for great warriors or whatever, they are just people.

But the point is that they LIVED the flood. The Bible suggests that they were not humans, but either way, this would contradict the verse that says that every living thing that creeps or craws died in the flood.

liberalismo

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2008, 07:14:40 PM »
Religion doesn’t cause war. It is merely a vehicle through which wars can be started.

How is a "vehicle through which wars can be started" not a "cause"?  ???

They seem synonymous to me.

liberalismo

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2008, 07:16:10 PM »
I think an analogy that might be used is that guns don't kill people, people kill people?

A gun doesn't stalk around a neighborhood on it's own later shooting someone in the head.  A person holding the gun and firing the gun shoots the person and kills them.

Religion itself doesn't cause a war, but people that believe in it, or misinterpret it do...maybe giving their reasons for starting the war as pertaining to something in their religion.


I think that it is true that some people start wars BECAUSE they hold specific religious beliefs.


People flew planes into the twin towers and people blow innocent people up in the middle east BECAUSE of religious beliefs.


Atheists don't car bomb.

liberalismo

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Re: Biblical Contradictions/Difficulties?
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2008, 07:21:25 PM »
You can accept or reject, but that's usually explained by sin having not yet infiltrating the earth as much as it has now.  God made Adam and Eve perfect (and w/free will) and then when they sinned sin entered the earth.  Over time sickness and diseases and death permeated more and more in a progressive type manner.

If the bible is a bunch of hooey, it would have been quite easy to leave out statements of a dude living to 969. 

But why haven't we found fossils of people who were that old? Scientists can often tell the age that people died from their bones. No humans have been found to be hundreds of years old when they died.


The bible is specific, sure. So is Homers Iliad and Odyssey (with interactions with Gods and mythological beings). So is the Koran. So are many various other non-historical poetic or fictional works.

 
I would love to know that stuff also! There's only one reference of Jesus in his teens in the bible as far as I know....maybe He was like 12.


Look into the apocrypha. Tons of non-bible books written about Jesus around the same time as the other Gospels were written.
 
Pretty sure he wrote the first 5 books of the O.T.

There is no proof of this though.