Author Topic: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?  (Read 5349 times)

4thAD

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Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« on: February 03, 2009, 06:10:04 PM »

by Sherrill Sellman
Extracted from Nexus Magazine, Volume 5, #4 (June - July 1998)

TAMOXIFEN'S DARK SIDE
While the initial findings of tamoxifen's role in breast cancer treatment seemed so promising, as with so many of the synthetic hormone drugs, further research presented grave concerns for its widespread use. In fact, the MIMS Annual lists 25 adverse reactions to tamoxifen: some of l these can be fatal.


Eye Damage
According to a 1978 study in Cancer Treatment Reports and another published in Cancer in 1992, about six per cent of women taking even low-dose tamoxifen suffer damage to the retina and corneal opacities and decreased visual acuity. Irreversible corneal and retinal changes can occur in those taking 20 mg. of tamoxifen twice a day (twice the usual dose). These changes may have no immediate effect on visual acuity, but may predispose the eyes to later problems including cataracts.


Blood Clots
Tamoxifen irritates the walls of the veins, and inflammation (a natural healing response to irritation) follows. The constant irritation and inflammation weakens the veins, causing bleeding, clotting, thrombophlebitis and, in the worst cases, obstruction of the blood vessels serving the lungs, which can be deadly and can occur with little warning. The incidence of thrombophlebitis in women using oral contraceptives is generally regarded as significant (1 in 2,000); however, with tamoxifen it's 30 times greater."

Several studies, including one reported to the FDA's Oncological Drugs Advisory Committee by the National Surgical Adjuvant Breast and Bowel Project in 1991, showed that the risk of developing life-threatening blood clots increases about seven times in women taking tamoxifen. (6)


Psychological Symptoms
Depression has been reported as a potential side-effect of tamoxifen in 30 per cent of women. Cases have been reported of an inability to concentrate.

It is important that patients observe their moods and mental states. If it is suspected at tamoxifen is causing depression or lack of concentration, it is suggested that a period of tamoxifen avoidance be considered.


Other Symptoms
Tamoxifen can trigger asthma attacks in some sensitive patients.

Changes to the vocal cords resulting in impairment of singing and speaking abilities are occasionally caused by tamoxifen.


CARCINOGENENIC EFFECTS
It wasn't long before laboratory studies showed that tamoxifen acted as a carcinogen. It has been found that tamoxifen binds tightly and irreversibly to DNA, the genetic blueprint of a cell, causing a cancerous mutation to take place. Even Australia's conservative National Health and Medical Research Council (NHMRC) warned that no amount of tamoxifen is safe when it comes to carcinogenic effects.

In California there is a law called "Proposition 65" that requires the state to publish and maintain a list of all known carcinogens. In May 1995, the state's Carcinogen Identification Committee voted unanimously to add tamoxifen to its list.

Following suit, in 1996 the World Health Organization formally designated tamoxifen a human carcinogen, grouping it with 70 other chemicals — about one quarter of them pharmaceuticals — that have received this dubious distinction.
Cont...


Liver Cancer and Liver Disease
Tamoxifen is toxic to the liver, and there have been reports of acute hepatitis in patients treated with tamoxifen. Liver damage has occurred in every animal given tamoxifen. According to Gary Williams, medical director of the American Heart Foundation, tamoxifen has been shown in animal studies to be a "rip-roaring" liver carcinogen, inducing highly aggressive cancers in about 12 per cent of rats. (7)

The latest human studies show a six-fold increase in liver cancer among women taking tamoxifen for more than two years." Liver failure and tamoxifen-induced hepatitis, although rare, have been reported. Even Zeneca admits that tamoxifen is a liver carcinogen — while nevertheless aggressively promoting its use.


Heart Disease and Osteoporosis
Another promise of tamoxifen was its supposed protective benefits for the heart and bones. It was theorized that its estrogenic properties would help reduce heart disease and osteoporosis in women, but once again the theory crumbled under the weight of hard facts.

Several trials with tamoxifen failed to show that it has any effect on bone density and thus on prevention of osteoporosis. In three other trials, bone density increased slightly in lower spinal vertebrae but not in longer bones or hip bones which are particularly susceptible to fractures and potentially fatal complications.

Initial data seemed to indicate that it decreased the incidence of heart attacks, but they have been disproved by more recent studies. According to Dr. Susan Love: "It doesn't seem to have a bad effect on lipids, but that's a far cry from preventing heart attacks."

A detailed review of the drug's alleged protective cardiovascular effects prompted the British National Heart, Lung and Blood Institute, a once strong proponent of tamoxifen, to withdraw its support because the evidence of benefit proved so inadequate. (25)

According to the January 1996 issue of The Network News, it was reported at a closed-door meeting of the National Cancer Institute that tamoxifen failed to prevent heart disease in breast cancer patients.


THE BREAST CANCER PREVENTION TRIAL
Based far more on wishful thinking than on science, the U.S. National Cancer Institute (NCI) leaped to the conclusion that tamoxifen's anti-estrogenic effects in relation to breast cancer treatment meant that the drug would prevent breast cancer from developing in healthy women.

Disregarding all the research implicating tamoxifen with serious and potentially fatal side-effects, the NCI launched a US$60 million breast cancer prevention trial in April 1992, aiming to recruit 16,000 healthy women in the United States, Europe, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. Still ongoing, the trial now involves 13,000 healthy women over the age of 35 who are considered at high risk. Australia has recruited 1,350 women, with a target of 2,500. For five years, half the women receive tamoxifen and half receive a placebo. The drug is supplied free of charge by manufacturer Zeneca.

Dr. Samuel Epstein, Professor Environmental Medicine at the University of Illinois School of Public Health and author of The Breast Cancer Prevention Program, raises serious concerns. "Unfortunately, this misguided and dangerous approach to prevention stems from the entrenched fixation of the NCI on the use of chemical drugs to prevent cancer which may have been induced by chemical pollutants, medical technology (such as radiation from X-rays) and carcinogenic/estrogenic drugs in the first place. Instead of attempting to reduce the carcinogenic chemical burden under which we struggle to maintain our health, the NCI believes that the solution is to add more chemicals to the mix."

Dr. Susan Love concurs: "It is a sad state of affairs when we have to add yet more chemicals to counteract the effects of other chemicals."

This attitude extends to the way the NCI treats the women in the trial. They are given no guidance on alternative protective measures such as increasing exercise, maintaining a healthy weight, eating a protective diet and avoiding exposure to environmental carcinogens; nor are they being fully informed about the serious risks of tamoxifen.

Dr. Lynette Dumble, Senior Research Fellow in History and Philosophy of Science at the University of Melbourne, believes that the global trial to prevent breast cancer with tamoxifen is a modern and very large chapter of "medical imperialism". Back in October 1994 she commented on ABC TV's Quantum science program that the tamoxifen trial was the medical equivalent of mutilating surgery which prevents a woman from developing breast cancer by cutting off both her breasts.

Dr. Dumble sees women as vulnerable guinea pigs for the trial, and questions both the breast cancer risk of healthy women volunteering for the trial (how can you tell whether fate or tamoxifen prevents a woman from developing breast cancer?) and the terms of the trial's positives and negatives (if a woman dies of tamoxifen-related endometrial or liver cancer, does this count as a tamoxifen success in preventing breast cancer?).

It seems absurd, but why would the powers-that-be continue to promote a trial that promises to substitute one cancer for another in otherwise healthy women? Once again, healthy women are targeted as the guinea pigs for a drug treatment that has already been proven to be a cause of a variety of cancers including breast cancer. In the case of tamoxifen, medical research has once again taken a back seat to profits. It is the population that is at risk. The cancer establishment would certainly be eager to prove a tamoxifen-prevention role, since it would then open up another huge, billion-dollar market.


It is widely believed that today's drugs are tomorrow's poisons. In the case of tamoxifen, tomorrow has already arrived.

shrek

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2009, 06:35:32 PM »
id say put that as a sticky so people can refer to it when they ask bout it

Big_Tymer

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2009, 07:28:13 PM »
interesting.  first time ive heard of any of this

jtsunami

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2009, 07:47:04 PM »
i get sweaty arms pits and constipated weird shits on it, it is the devil, stay away!
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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2009, 10:05:47 PM »
I allways feel like a million dollars on that stuff:

- Excellent mood
- Better overall feeling
- muscles look fuller

I love the stuff, pure and simple.
TEST+DECA+DBOL=BIG

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2009, 10:22:12 PM »
I allways feel like a million dollars on that stuff:

- Excellent mood
- Better overall feeling
- muscles look fuller

I love the stuff, pure and simple.

x2

balls bounce back within a day too  8)
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Luolamies

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2009, 04:13:12 AM »
x2

balls bounce back within a day too  8)

Oh yeah, forgot that one!

Same with me... Very nice effect.

I just haven't had any BAD issues with it at all. This is interesting info, but i for one can't get worried, even if i wanted to. For example: isn't creatine supposed to wreak havoc on our kidneys etc.
TEST+DECA+DBOL=BIG

Fatpanda

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2009, 06:16:39 AM »
Oh yeah, forgot that one!

Same with me... Very nice effect.

I just haven't had any BAD issues with it at all. This is interesting info, but i for one can't get worried, even if i wanted to. For example: isn't creatine supposed to wreak havoc on our kidneys etc.
i'm the same, plus these potential sides are very common and could be caused by numerous other things, for example:

depression: well if a lady has cancer then clearly she is going to be depressed  ::)

heart disease: if the patient is eating a poor diet, then all the tamox in the world won't stop heart disease.

blood clots: see above, although it may add to the effect of a poor diet, however i would argue that proper nutrition would avoid this side.

etc etc

however it is not a prescribed medication for these things anyway  ::)
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freakfestMD

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2009, 06:23:22 AM »
Our utilization of tamoxifen as bodybuilders (relatively low dose and short duration) lies in stark contrast to its use as a chemotherapeutic agent in breast cancer patients (higher dosages, long duration of therapy).

Although most users do report a loss of visual acuity while on this for PCT (I have experienced this myself, every time), long-term damage to the cornea or retina is unlikely.  

As far as hepatotoxicity goes, again, low dosages for short duration should not cause irreparable damage to this most resilient organ.  Certainly, acetaminophen (Tylenol) is one of the most hepatotoxic of all drugs, yet when taken for short courses it is relatively safe.

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2009, 11:15:36 AM »
great post.i needed to see this as i cannot take nolva due to its hepatoxicity and the fact that i have hep c.do you know if theres anything else i can take for pct in place of nolva,would clomid by itself work?

Emmortal

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2009, 11:23:15 AM »
great post.i needed to see this as i cannot take nolva due to its hepatoxicity and the fact that i have hep c.do you know if theres anything else i can take for pct in place of nolva,would clomid by itself work?

Clomid should be fine, have you run it before?

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2009, 12:25:40 PM »
Check this out. Not implying anything but some may find this interesting.


Quote
Liver Int. 2004 Jun;24(3):194-7.
Tamoxifen: a novel treatment for primary biliary cirrhosis?
Reddy A, Prince M, James OF, Jain S, Bassendine MF.
Freeman Hospital Liver Unit, Newcastle upon Tyne Hospitals Trust, UK.

Primary biliary cirrhosis (PBC) is a chronic cholestatic liver disease, which predominantly affects women. It is characterised histologically by necroinflammation of small intrahepatic bile ducts and biochemically by elevated serum alkaline phosphatase, levels of which at diagnosis predict survival. Ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) is the only treatment shown to improve liver biochemistry and survival. We report two patients with PBC who show a fall in serum alkaline phosphates levels whilst receiving tamoxifen therapy. Tamoxifen may exert this effect, which warrants further study, either via cholangiocyte estrogen receptors, inhibiting cholangiocyte proliferation and inducing apoptosis or by activating pregnane X receptor, analogous to the mode of action of UDCA.

2. Hepatology, Volume 39, Issue 4, Pages 1175-1176
Correspondence
Tamoxifen in treatment of primary biliary cirrhosis
Pietro Invernizzi 1, Domenico Alvaro 2, Andrea Crosignani 1, Eugenio Gaudio 3, Mauro Podda 1
1Division of Internal Medicine, San Paolo School of Medicine, University of Milan, Milan, Italy
2Division of Gastroenterology, Department of Clinical Medicine
3Department of Anatomy, University of Rome, La Sapienza, Rome, Italy

Tamoxifen in Treatment of Primary Biliary Cirrhosis

To the Editor:

Although ursodeoxycholic acid may improve liver biochemistry and slow disease progression, primary biliary cirrhosis (PBC) remains without a definite cure, and the search for additional medications continues.[1]

Cholangiocytes are the primary target of damage in PBC, and the balance between proliferation and death of these cells may condition the progression of the disease.[2-4] We have recently found that estrogen receptors (ER) are expressed in cholangiocytes of rats with bile duct ligation (an animal model of cholestasis) and that selective modulators of ER influences cholangiocyte proliferation and death.[2][3]. Furthermore, the cholangiocytes of PBC patients but not normal subjects expressed ER, and the degree of expression was shown to correlate with cell proliferation and with disease progression.[4] On the basis of these findings, we hypothesize that selective ER modulators might have an impact on the biochemical and clinical expression of PBC.

We searched the database of the entire patient population who had been on regular follow-up in our Liver Unit for at least 18 months since 1974. Of 488 women with PBC, 3 had been treated for at least 18 months with tamoxifen (TMX), a selective ER modulator,[5] for breast cancer. They received TMX (20 mg/day) for 18 months (case A), 60 months (case B), and 30 months (case C) Fig. 1 shows the effect of TMX on liver enzymes related with cholestasis in these patients. At the beginning of the observation period, the patients were 58, 49, and 49 years old, respectively. Case B had liver cirrhosis. Case C received TMX while on ursodeoxycholic acid (15 mg/kg/day).


Figure 1. Biochemical effect of tamoxifen (TMX) alone or in association with ursodeoxycholic acid (UDCA) in 3 patients with primary biliary cirrhosis. Normal values: alkaline phosphatase <279 IU/L; -glutamyltransferase <32 IU/L.

Serum bilirubin levels were normal and did not change throughout the observation period in all the three cases. In cases A and B there was a marked decrease of alkaline phosphatase (about 70% and 85%, respectively) levels and of -glutamyltransferase (about 60% and 75%, respectively) levels during the TMX therapy, with a complete reversal in case A after TMX withdrawal. A reduction of the liver enzymes was observed also in case C, who had concomitant treatment with ursodeoxycholic acid. During the observation period, none of these patients developed any complications of liver cirrhosis.

In conclusion, this retrospective survey shows a biochemical benefit of TMX, a selective ER- antagonist and mixed agonist/antagonist ER- modulator, in patients with PBC. TMX could affect PBC progression by regulating cholangiocyte proliferation and death. Further studies are warranted to assess the safety andefficacy of TMX (alone or in combination with ursodeoxycholic acid) in the treatment of PBC.

REFERENCES
1. Talwalkar JA, Lindor KD. Primary biliary cirrhosis. Lancet 2003; 362: 53-61.

2. Alvaro D, Alpini G, Onori P, Perego L, Svegliata Baroni G, Franchitto A, Baiocchi L, et al. Estrogens stimulate proliferation of intrahepatic biliary epithelium in rats. Gastroenterology 2000; 119: 1681-1691.

3. Alvaro D, Alpini G, Onori P, Franchitto A, Glaser S, Le Sage G, et al. Effect of ovariectomy on the proliferative capacity of intrahepatic rat cholangiocytes. Gastroenterology 2002; 123: 336-344.

4. Alvaro D, Invernizzi P, Onori P, Franchitto A, Pinto G, De Santis A, et al. Expression of estrogen receptors in cholangiocytes of liver biopsies from patients with primary biliary cirrhosis (PBC). HEPATOLOGY 2002; 36: 389A.

5. Riggs BL, Hartmann LC. Selective estrogen-receptor modulators - mechanisms of action and application to clinical practice. N Engl J Med 2003; 348: 618-629

Is estrogen involved in cholestasis that can be caused by oral anabolics and could Nolva protect against it?

Fatpanda

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2009, 12:29:05 PM »
Check this out. Not implying anything but some may find this interesting.


Is estrogen involved in cholestasis that can be caused by oral anabolics and could Nolva protect against it?

interesting  8)
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Van_Bilderass

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2009, 12:31:28 PM »


Eye Damage
According to a 1978 study in Cancer Treatment Reports and another published in Cancer in 1992, about six per cent of women taking even low-dose tamoxifen suffer damage to the retina and corneal opacities and decreased visual acuity. Irreversible corneal and retinal changes can occur in those taking 20 mg. of tamoxifen twice a day (twice the usual dose). These changes may have no immediate effect on visual acuity, but may predispose the eyes to later problems including cataracts.


Antioxidants may be a good idea while on Nolva (or Clomid for that matter)

Quote
xp Biol Med (Maywood). 2004 Jul;229(7):607-15.

Oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathogenesis of drug-induced retinopathy.

Toler SM.

Clinical Safety and Risk Management, Pfizer Inc., Pfizer Global Research and Development, 50 Pequot Avenue, New London, CT 06320. steven_m_toler@groton.pfizer.com

Several pharmaceutical agents have been associated with rare but serious retinopathies, some resulting in blindness. Little is known of the mechanism(s) that produce these injuries. Mechanisms proposed thus far have not been embraced by the medical and scientific communities. However, preclinical and clinical data indicate that oxidative stress may contribute substantially to iatrogenic retinal disease. Retinal oxidative stress may be precipitated by the interaction of putative retinal toxins with the ocular redox system. The retina, replete with cytochromes P450 and myeloperoxidase, may serve to activate xenobiotics to oxidants, resulting in ocular injury. These activated agents may directly form retinal adducts or may diminish ocular reduced glutathione concentrations. Data are reviewed that suggest that indomethacin, tamoxifen, thioridazine, and chloroquine all produce retinopathies via a common mechanism-they produce ocular oxidative stress

Full article:

http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/229/7/607

Quote
Ingestion of antioxidants may protect against the development of retinal diseases (94–96). Several studies, including ARED and LAST, indicate that dietary intake of antioxidants may be beneficial for those at risk of developing retinal disease (94, 97). Much of the interest in the use of antioxidants for retinal diseases emerges from growing evidence that supports an oxidative etiology for age-related macular degeneration (86, 98). Data suggest that supplementation with vitamins A, C, and E, zinc, and lutein may prove beneficial in some subjects at risk for the development of macular degeneration (99–102). Vitamins C and E have been shown to help maintain concentrations of reduced glutathione in ocular tissues and prevent oxidative damage (101). Drug-induced retinal injury and age-related macular degeneration both appear to be related to oxidative injury (103). Macular degeneration may be precipitated in part by lifelong exposure to oxidative injury from exposure to environmental oxidants in susceptible subjects (86). Similarly, when exposed acutely to drugs that alter the redox balance in the retina, susceptible individuals may develop retinal injuries.


DIVISION

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2009, 12:40:48 PM »
Eye Damage
According to a 1978 study in Cancer Treatment Reports and another published in Cancer in 1992, about six per cent of women taking even low-dose tamoxifen suffer damage to the retina and corneal opacities and decreased visual acuity. Irreversible corneal and retinal changes can occur in those taking 20 mg. of tamoxifen twice a day (twice the usual dose). These changes may have no immediate effect on visual acuity, but may predispose the eyes to later problems including cataracts.

I saw a study related to this years ago and wondered about the contraindications from Nolvadex, especially the incidence of cataracts.

That was what worried me.

I rarely use Nolvadex now anyway, so it's not really a factor.

The AI's on the market now trump Nolvadex to the point that I don't even really look at it.

Aromasin is it for me these days...........and Arimidex if that's not available.

Good lookin' out, 4th.........


DIV
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Emmortal

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2009, 12:42:36 PM »


The AI's on the market now trump Nolvadex to the point that I don't even really look at it.


DIV

What do AI's have to do with SERMS?

DIVISION

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2009, 12:47:45 PM »
What do AI's have to do with SERMS?

Obviously you didn't make the connection between the article and my point.

I don't use Nolvadex anymore, there's no need when there are AI's abundant.

Thanks for asking your patented question of questions, though, bro.   ;D



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jtsunami

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2009, 12:52:59 PM »
Yeah DIV but the Ai's most bodybuilders use now they are no studies out on them because they are so new like studies done on Nolvadex, so they could be just as bad for you.  I saw just avoid AI's and anti e's at all, they all make me feel horrid. 

jt
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DIVISION

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2009, 12:55:53 PM »
Yeah DIV but the Ai's most bodybuilders use now they are no studies out on them because they are so new like studies done on Nolvadex, so they could be just as bad for you.  I saw just avoid AI's and anti e's at all, they all make me feel horrid. 

jt

I fully realize this young jtsunami.........but we only live once.

Life isn't promised, negro.

Live your life as if every day is your last.

That's all you can do.   :-X


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jtsunami

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2009, 12:58:33 PM »
I know.  Good post.  But why do you use AI or anti-e when you are on all the time?  Does it help with gyno but it doesn't seem like you would get gyno cause you have been on long time and no gyno so far.

jt
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DIVISION

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2009, 02:01:22 PM »
I know.  Good post.  But why do you use AI or anti-e when you are on all the time?  Does it help with gyno but it doesn't seem like you would get gyno cause you have been on long time and no gyno so far.

jt

I like preventative maintainance so to speak, hence the use of AI's.

I'm not all 24/7, but I do go for extended cycles, esp in light of my trying out these different UG products.

The only side I'm worried about is estrogen rebound, which can happen sometimes..........but AI's tend to clear up the estrogen blues.   ;)


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jtsunami

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2009, 02:42:40 PM »
Ok cool.  Just wondering and that answered my Q.

jt
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rocco-x

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2009, 05:32:51 PM »
great post.i needed to see this as i cannot take nolva due to its hepatoxicity and the fact that i have hep c.do you know if theres anything else i can take for pct in place of nolva,would clomid by itself work?
no i've never dida pct at all.my prior cycles i did straight test cyp and had no sides at all.i'm concerned now b/c i want to do a 12wk of test enth @500mg/wk and eq @ 400mg/wk.do you think something like arimidex @ small doses throughout the cycle,say .5mg ed,would help or should i just chance it and skip the AI or pct all together?

DIVISION

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Re: Found this on BoS. Is today's nolva tomorrows poison?
« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2009, 05:54:42 PM »
no i've never dida pct at all.my prior cycles i did straight test cyp and had no sides at all.i'm concerned now b/c i want to do a 12wk of test enth @500mg/wk and eq @ 400mg/wk.do you think something like arimidex @ small doses throughout the cycle,say .5mg ed,would help or should i just chance it and skip the AI or pct all together?

500MG ew is not a big deal, you might not even need PCT.

You can use Arimidex @ 1MG E3D to get the most out of it.

You might not need it.


DIV
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