Pro-life group calls on Notre Dame to rescind Obama invite

[tonymctones]

I'm not aware of people targeting pro-life proponents.

The men killing women for not getting an abortion are probably not doing it for ideological reasons......just a hunch.

Anyway, my point of view works for both sides.  If you are against abortion then don't get one. 

Again do some research on it and you will find some...And like i said my point was not to refute that there are violent pro life extremist only to correct you on your assumption that the pro choice does indeed demonize the pro life crowd at times.

thats like saying if your for murder then go kill...you simplify the problem the pro life group has with abortion by doing that but it doesnt dismiss there legitmate issue with abortion. If you believe that the unborn child is alive then its murder is it not? Im sorry there are plenty of ways to prevent pregnancy these days abortion should only be used in a few specific cases not in the general way to avoid responsibilities like it is now.

I assume your for men not having to pay child support if they dont want to as well?

[Straw Man]

Again do some research on it and you will find some...And like i said my point was not to refute that there are violent pro life extremist only to correct you on your assumption that the pro choice does indeed demonize the pro life crowd at times.

thats like saying if your for murder then go kill...you simplify the problem the pro life group has with abortion by doing that but it doesnt dismiss there legitmate issue with abortion. If you believe that the unborn child is alive then its murder is it not? Im sorry there are plenty of ways to prevent pregnancy these days abortion should only be used in a few specific cases not in the general way to avoid responsibilities like it is now.

I assume your for men not having to pay child support if they dont want to as well?

Tony - I already conceded that the pro-choice crowd does belittle the religious nutbags from time to time (see I did it myself).

Regarding violence perpetrated by pro-choice people - I don't know of any.  If you say there is then give me an example but don't tell me to go look for it.  You're the one making the claim that it exists.

Unless men are killing women they don't even know based soley on the fact that the women refuse to get an abortion then it's not really the same as the prolife crowd murdering doctors, blowing up abortion clinics or harassing people they don't even know as those people try to enter clinics.   

Pro-Choice means pro-choice.  No one on the pro-choice side is telling anyone they should get an abortion much less committing violence if they don't

I'm sure any case of man killing a woman who refused to get an abortion was a case of domestic violence.   Not trying to diminish it but it's got nothing in common with the type of violence on the pro-life side that is purely based on ideology

Why would you think I'm against men paying child support.  By what logic did you arrive at that conclusion?

I also don't think abortion is murder so I wouldn't say that if "you're for murder you should go kill"

This is the bottom line for the regligious supporters of abortion -they think it's murder and so there is no compromise.

I'm curious what the special cases are where abortion should be allowed?

[tonymctones]

Tony - I already conceded that the pro-choice crowd does belittle the religious nutbags from time to time (see I did it myself).

Regarding violence perpetrated by pro-choice people - I don't know of any.  If you say there is then give me an example but don't tell me to go look for it.  You're the one making the claim that it exists.

Unless men are killing women they don't even know based soley on the fact that the women refuse to get an abortion then it's not really the same as the prolife crowd murdering doctors, blowing up abortion clinics or harassing people they don't even know as those people try to enter clinics.   

Pro-Choice means pro-choice.  No one on the pro-choice side is telling anyone they should get an abortion much less committing violence if they don't

I'm sure any case of man killing a woman who refused to get an abortion was a case of domestic violence.   Not trying to diminish it but it's got nothing in common with the type of violence on the pro-life side that is purely based on ideology

Why would you think I'm against men paying child support.  By what logic did you arrive at that conclusion?

I also don't think abortion is murder so I wouldn't say that if "you're for murder you should go kill"

This is the bottom line for the regligious supporters of abortion -they think it's murder and so there is no compromise.

I'm curious what the special cases are where abortion should be allowed?

Look up byron looper and tommy burks...

whether the act of violence against the women is to diminish the ideology or not is not what you asked you stated that youre not aware of violent acts by pro choice ppl against pro life ppl and thats just what those violent acts are...the very reason they are being attacked is b/c they refuse to abort a baby, how much more clear could it be?

You see you are showing the classic liberal double standard on this issue, you are all for a womens right to choose independent of the mans opinion to have an abortion. The man gets no such choice, the only logical step would also to give the man a chance to wipe his hand clean of the situation just like your giving the women...I.E. no child support, look up "liberal double standard and abortion" its a documented concept and taught in entry level logic classes all over the US.

LOL see this is another problem with the pro choice side and much like anybody who is against gay marriage is either a bigot or a closet homo. Anybody who is against abortion is seen as a religious nut job and the only reason they are against it.  Im against abortion b/c i believe that its murder, thats independent of my religious beliefs and is not synonymous with religion atheist believe that as well...

Maybe you dont believe its murder that statement is still akin to saying "hey if you for not being responsible then get an abortion"

exceptions in the cases of the mothers health, rape and perhaps incest are pretty much the only acceptable situations for abortion...im sorry like i said there are more then enough ways to avoid pregnancy without using abortion to avoid responsibility

[Deicide]

Abortion and gay marriage; American politics are a sad affair indeed.

[Straw Man]

Look up byron looper and tommy burks...

whether the act of violence against the women is to diminish the ideology or not is not what you asked you stated that youre not aware of violent acts by pro choice ppl against pro life ppl and thats just what those violent acts are...the very reason they are being attacked is b/c they refuse to abort a baby, how much more clear could it be?

You see you are showing the classic liberal double standard on this issue, you are all for a womens right to choose independent of the mans opinion to have an abortion. The man gets no such choice, the only logical step would also to give the man a chance to wipe his hand clean of the situation just like your giving the women...I.E. no child support, look up "liberal double standard and abortion" its a documented concept and taught in entry level logic classes all over the US.

LOL see this is another problem with the pro choice side and much like anybody who is against gay marriage is either a bigot or a closet homo. Anybody who is against abortion is seen as a religious nut job and the only reason they are against it.  Im against abortion b/c i believe that its murder, thats independent of my religious beliefs and is not synonymous with religion atheist believe that as well...

Maybe you dont believe its murder that statement is still akin to saying "hey if you for not being responsible then get an abortion"

exceptions in the cases of the mothers health, rape and perhaps incest are pretty much the only acceptable situations for abortion...im sorry like i said there are more then enough ways to avoid pregnancy without using abortion to avoid responsibility

I running late but a few quick things.  I looked up Looper and Burks and I don't see how that has anything to do with abortion.  Please clarify why you think Burks murder has anything to do with abortion. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Looper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Burks

I never said anybody who is against aborition is a religious nutjob. 

If a man should be allowed to walk away from child support then you could just as illogically say he should be able to force the woman to have an abortion.  neither makes any sense.

If abortion is murder then why is murder OK in cases of incest and rape.   It's still murder isn't it.   So you're saying murder is OK in those cases?

[LurkerNoMore]

Abortion and gay marriage; American politics are a sad affair indeed.

Didn't you know?  The biggest concern in America is what other people are doing with their lives, not trying to make sure your life follows the moral path you believe.

[tonymctones]

I running late but a few quick things.  I looked up Looper and Burks and I don't see how that has anything to do with abortion.  Please clarify why you think Burks murder has anything to do with abortion. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byron_Looper

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Burks

I never said anybody who is against aborition is a religious nutjob. 

If a man should be allowed to walk away from child support then you could just as illogically say he should be able to force the woman to have an abortion.  neither makes any sense.

If abortion is murder then why is murder OK in cases of incest and rape.   It's still murder isn't it.   So you're saying murder is OK in those cases?

burk was a pro life, looper pro choice supposedly one reason why looper lost or was going to lose.

LOL your logic is pretty bad man...that makes absolutely no sense, heres the problem you cannot logically give reason for giving a women the option of abortion without giving the man the option for abortion(for a man thats simply walking away)...again look it up its taught in entry level logic classes in college...

Ahhhh very good point, and i pretty much have to agree with you on that to a certain extent, with rape to me there are other things to take into account the psychological health of the mother to be is one important one. If she is ok with giving birth to a baby concieved in a violent forced upon act then ok if not then i think its her call although i see your point and argue that point as well...with incest i said maybe b/c as we know incest can lead to a number of birth defects in children however if you extend to that then you might have to extend to all birth defects even those not caused by incest so thats why i said perhaps.

[Straw Man]

burk was a pro life, looper pro choice supposedly one reason why looper lost or was going to lose.

from the very little I read Looper was batshit crazy and nothing I read mentioned Burkes views on abortion as being a motive.  Burke was the incumbant and apparently Looper thought if he killed him he would have a better chance of winning.    Burke was also opposed the state lottery.  Would you call that a motive too?  This is nothing more than one person trying to eliminate a rival.   

[Straw Man]

LOL your logic is pretty bad man...that makes absolutely no sense, heres the problem you cannot logically give reason for giving a women the option of abortion without giving the man the option for abortion(for a man thats simply walking away)...again look it up its taught in entry level logic classes in college...

have you forgotten that the woman is actually the one carrying the baby?

[Deicide]

burk was a pro life, looper pro choice supposedly one reason why looper lost or was going to lose.

LOL your logic is pretty bad man...that makes absolutely no sense, heres the problem you cannot logically give reason for giving a women the option of abortion without giving the man the option for abortion(for a man thats simply walking away)...again look it up its taught in entry level logic classes in college...

Ahhhh very good point, and i pretty much have to agree with you on that to a certain extent, with rape to me there are other things to take into account the psychological health of the mother to be is one important one. If she is ok with giving birth to a baby concieved in a violent forced upon act then ok if not then i think its her call although i see your point and argue that point as well...with incest i said maybe b/c as we know incest can lead to a number of birth defects in children however if you extend to that then you might have to extend to all birth defects even those not caused by incest so thats why i said perhaps.

[tonymctones]

from the very little I read Looper was batshit crazy and nothing I read mentioned Burkes views on abortion as being a motive.  Burke was the incumbant and apparently Looper thought if he killed him he would have a better chance of winning.    Burke was also opposed the state lottery.  Would you call that a motive too?  This is nothing more than one person trying to eliminate a rival.   

LOL you can call it that, i can call it my way...i see your point though

Again though if you need examples simply looking at those women who suffer harm for not aborting should be plenty enough.

have you forgotten that the woman is actually the one carrying the baby?

Ok, lets look at it from this angle since your having problems...why is it that the man has to pay child support? b/c its his child right? ill answer for you, yes

Its still his child during the pregnancy, why does he get no say in anything then?

Again you cant logically give reason why the women can walk away from the situation and the man cannot...

[tu_holmes]

have you forgotten that the woman is actually the one carrying the baby?

I don't give a damn who carries the baby... Abortion isn't about the carrying anyway, it's about the responsibility after the baby is born... End of story.

They are both EQUALLY responsible... if so, then the man should also have the option to "abort". For it to be her decision only is absolutely ludicrous. If "it takes 2" then both should have equal say... both for and against.

[Benny B]

I don't give a damn who carries the baby... Abortion isn't about the carrying anyway, it's about the responsibility after the baby is born... End of story.

They are both EQUALLY responsible... if so, then the man should also have the option to "abort". For it to be her decision only is absolutely ludicrous. If "it takes 2" then both should have equal say... both for and against.

that's dumb

[tu_holmes]

that's dumb

You must be another victim of the pussification of America.

[Straw Man]

I don't give a damn who carries the baby... Abortion isn't about the carrying anyway, it's about the responsibility after the baby is born... End of story.

They are both EQUALLY responsible... if so, then the man should also have the option to "abort". For it to be her decision only is absolutely ludicrous. If "it takes 2" then both should have equal say... both for and against.

can a man legally prevent a woman (his wife or otherwise) from getting an abortion?

I don't know so I'm asking you.

I also don't know the laws requiring child support but presumably if the woman has the child then she is responsible to support it and since you agree they are both equally responsible it seems fair that the father should kick in for half the support

[tonymctones]

can a man legally prevent a woman (his wife or otherwise) from getting an abortion?

I don't know so I'm asking you.

I also don't know the laws requiring child support but presumably if the woman has the child then she is responsible to support it and since you agree they are both equally responsible it seems fair that the father should kick in for half the support

no a women can go get an abortion without the fathers approval, completely and totally independent of the man...

Thats fine but if you feel that way if then the man needs to have a say in whether or not she gets an abortion...if not then the man should logically be able to wash his hand of the situation as well, dont you agree? do you see the double standard here?

[Straw Man]

no a women can go get an abortion without the fathers approval, completely and totally independent of the man...

Thats fine but if you feel that way if then the man needs to have a say in whether or not she gets an abortion...if not then the man should logically be able to wash his hand of the situation as well, dont you agree? do you see the double standard here?

I see your point but I don't agree.

If the situation happened to me then I might think differently

BTW - aren't you against abortion in most cases anyway?

[tonymctones]

I see your point but I don't agree.

If the situation happened to me then I might think differently

BTW - aren't you against abortion in most cases anyway?

yes i am, i just see the "liberal double standard" all to often with pro choice ppl and i cant stand it especially when ppl try to argue that there is no double standard...what is it that you dont agree with just out of curiosity

I wouldnt want my s/o to have an abortion for any reason other then her health was in jeopardy or if God forbid she was raped and decided she didnt want to carry the baby.   

[Straw Man]

yes i am, i just see the "liberal double standard" all to often with pro choice ppl and i cant stand it especially when ppl try to argue that there is no double standard...what is it that you dont agree with just out of curiosity

I wouldnt want my s/o to have an abortion for any reason other then her health was in jeopardy or if God forbid she was raped and decided she didnt want to carry the baby.   

Here's my bottom line and it doesn't require any intervention from the state .

if you're old enough to have sex then you're old enough to take responsibility for your actions.  If you have sex use a condom. If an "accident" happens then you deal with the consequences like a responsible adult.  If you get someone pregnant and she doesn't want to get an abortion then you man up and take care of your own flesh and blood.

I don't need a court or a government to enforce any of that upon me.   

[tonymctones]

Here's my bottom line and it doesn't require any intervention from the state .

if you're old enough to have sex then you're old enough to take responsibility for your actions.  If you have sex use a condom. If an "accident" happens then you deal with the consequences like a responsible adult.  If you get someone pregnant and she doesn't want to get an abortion then you man up and take care of your own flesh and blood.

I don't need a court or a government to enforce any of that upon me.   

The same should be said to women and we wouldnt have a problem, if you have an accident you take responsibility for your actions and give birth instead of acting like a child and getting an abortion.

thats all fine and dandy as long as you see that there is a bias in the law that is discriminitory of mens rights...if your ok with discriminating against men on this then dont come complain to me about gay marriage etc. and use the its discriminatory reasoning...

All in all as long as you see the bias and illogical reasoning that you have ill call it a wash...

[Straw Man]

The same should be said to women and we wouldnt have a problem, if you have an accident you take responsibility for your actions and give birth instead of acting like a child and getting an abortion.

thats all fine and dandy as long as you see that there is a bias in the law that is discriminitory of mens rights...if your ok with discriminating against men on this then dont come complain to me about gay marriage etc. and use the its discriminatory reasoning...

All in all as long as you see the bias and illogical reasoning that you have ill call it a wash...

again, I disagree.  I think the fact that the woman has to carry and bear the child gives her some precedence over the man.   

I'm also aware, as I'm sure you are that life is not fair or equitable.

Honestly, I can't understand how any man could walk away from supporting his own flesh and blood, regardless of how he feels about the woman or the situation. 

[tonymctones]

again, I disagree.  I think the fact that the woman has to carry and bear the child gives her some precedence over the man.   

I'm also aware, as I'm sure you are that life is not fair or equitable.

Honestly, I can't understand how any man could walk away from supporting his own flesh and blood, regardless of how he feels about the woman or the situation. 

LOL so 9 months gestation is equivilant to 18 years of child support payments  LOL please...

No life isnt fair but when you use the arguement that the government shouldnt discriminate on one issue and are ok with it on another then you lose credibility...

Honestly i agree with you i would never walk away or look favorably on a man walking away from his child...WHATS HILLARIOUS AND TROUBLING is you have no problem what so ever with the women walking away...More of the liberal double standard, you demonize the man for not living up to his responsibilities but make excuses for the women when she RUNS from hers...

[Straw Man]

LOL so 9 months gestation is equivilant to 18 years of child support payments  LOL please...

No life isnt fair but when you use the arguement that the government shouldnt discriminate on one issue and are ok with it on another then you lose credibility...

Honestly i agree with you i would never walk away or look favorable on a man walking away from his child...WHATS HILLARIOUS AND TROUBLING is you have no problem what so ever with the women walking away...More of the liberal double standard, you demonize the man for not living up to his responsibilities but make excuses for the women when she RUNS from hers...

When did I ever say I have no problem with the woman walking away?  Are you referring to abortion?

If so, I've never been faced with that choice and it's not my place to tell someone (either party) what to do.

I know that, if I accidently got someone pregnant then I would take responsibility and I can't even say that I would want her to get an abortion.  I might but I can't say for sure without knowing the circumstances and I wouldn't take it lightly.   I do know that regardless of what the situation was, If I had a child I would support it regardless of whether the woman did or not.  I would take responsibilty to my actions and I wouldn't rationalize it.     BTW - I see a difference between a bunch of cells a few weeks after conception and a living, breathing human being.   I would do the right thing for my flesh and blood. 

[tonymctones]

When did I ever say I have no problem with the woman walking away?  Are you referring to abortion?

If so, I've never been faced with that choice and it's not my place to tell someone (either party) what to do.

I know that, if I accidently got someone pregnant then I would take responsibility and I can't even say that I would want her to get an abortion.  I might but I can't say for sure without knowing the circumstances and I wouldn't take it lightly.   I do know that regardless of what the situation was, If I had a child I would support it regardless of whether the woman did or not.  I would take responsibilty to my actions and I wouldn't rationalize it.     BTW - I see a difference between a bunch of cells a few weeks after conception and a living, breathing human being.   I would do the right thing for my flesh and blood. 

if youre ok with abortion, youre ok with a women walking away from her responsibility...I understand how you feel but what i dont understand is how you feel that way about men but are ok with women getting an abortion? again logically it shouldnt matter you take care of your kids, you take responsibility for your actions...this is how you feel but for some reason it only applies to men 

whats the beginning of life for you?

[Cap]

I like where this debate is going.  Skoal in, feet up, diligently awaiting the next post.



All I know is, if I found out my wife had an abortion she'd wake up with divorce papers in hand.