Is HRT considered juicing.....

[Samourai Pizzacat]

The norm is the average but if your test is lower doesn't mean that your levels are wrong or dangerous. There's no studies that show that low test levels are diminishing life expectancy or otherwise unhealthy, it's actually the other way around. so there's no medical justification for HRT unless your test is reaaaaaallly low.

[Van_Bilderass]

so there's no medical justification for HRT unless your test is reaaaaaallly low.

It's not necessarily wrong to treat subjective symptoms though. Like in menopause women can get estrogen to treat symptoms like hot flashes even though estrogen may increase the chance of certain cancers etc. Menopausal women can even get testosterone to treat low libido. There's no evidence test will increase life expectancy in women. It's used to increase quality of life.

[Mons Venus]

The norm is the average but if your test is lower doesn't mean that your levels are wrong or dangerous. There's no studies that show that low test levels are diminishing life expectancy or otherwise unhealthy, it's actually the other way around. so there's no medical justification for HRT unless your test is reaaaaaallly low.

Hypothetical: 50-60 yo man with T levels near 250 with low energy and difficulty performing. Is he considered a "juicer" for using a product similar to Androgel to increase his quality of life?

[Dballn247]

If you're only replacing lost T back to physiologic norm, I do not consider it juicing.

How many competitive bodybuilders use AndroGel as their ONLY anabolic source ?

I don't know about competitive pro's but my Cheap ass ex-roommate uses the ole Androgel pump and he's 237lbs.  He's all about it cause "his insurance pays for his juice."

[Mons Venus]

I don't know about competitive pro's but my Cheap ass ex-roommate uses the ole Androgel pump and he's 237lbs.  He's all about it cause "his insurance pays for his juice."

I imagine he baths in it. 

[Samourai Pizzacat]

Hypothetical: 50-60 yo man with T levels near 250 with low energy and difficulty performing. Is he considered a "juicer" for using a product similar to Androgel to increase his quality of life?

not in my book, HRT has its uses. But you'll find that a man with such low T levels most likely does not need his test levels upped to the norm.

[jon cole]

I think HRT is an American Phenomenom

I'd never heared of it until I started posting on here.

true, here in France most people i know are afraid to take multivitamin, "is it drugs, do you need a prescription ?"
protein powder are considered as amphetamine.

it looks unbelievable but it's true.   

[shootfighter1]

Some of you guys are just wrong and need to update your thinking.

There are studies equating higher incidence of cardiac mortality, diabetes and depression for individuals with the lowest 20% of testosterone of the normal range (or lower).  There was also a study linking low test (again lowest 20%) to greater overall mortality.  Harvard scientists and many reputable urologists now back HRT, there have been a lot of recent publications.  A lot of the though changed when we saw an increase in heart disease and heart attacks after giving patients (with prostate cancer) pituitary inhibitors which lowered testosterone.  Testosterone is necessary for the heart.  There has been some psychiatric literature about the mood enhancing effects of low dose testosterone as well and some good results with depressed patients with low test.  You guys are looking at it from the BBing perspective.  Most anti-aging docs treat guys 40 and over with documented hormone deficiencies.  Yes, there are still some bad docs out there but not like it was 10 yrs ago.
Free testosterone drops at a rate of approx 1.5% per year after age 35, it is certainly variable but there are a lot of guys in their 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond who get amazing benefits (and minimal, if any side effects) when their testosterone levels are increased (inside the normal range).

[shootfighter1]

Samourai, my impression is that when testosterone is too low or too high, over a long period of time, there can be problems.  However, low testosterone does not predict increased life expectancy.  It is the reverse actually.  I have not seen a study equating high test levels to increased mortality but we can extrapolate from individuals who use hugh quantities where they experience high estrogen, high blood pressure, eventually an enlarged heart and decrease in HDLs (your protective cholesterol).

When you look at it from the perspective of an aging but still active, athletic male, it makes more sense.  Guys that are over 40 still trying to be as good as they can physically have the right to obtain benefit from hormone replacement if they have low hormones and it makes them feel and function better with minimal to no risks. 

[Mons Venus]

Some of you guys are just wrong and need to update your thinking.

There are studies equating higher incidence of cardiac mortality, diabetes and depression for individuals with the lowest 20% of testosterone of the normal range (or lower).  There was also a study linking low test (again lowest 20%) to greater overall mortality.  Harvard scientists and many reputable urologists now back HRT, there have been a lot of recent publications.  A lot of the though changed when we saw an increase in heart disease and heart attacks after giving patients (with prostate cancer) pituitary inhibitors which lowered testosterone.  Testosterone is necessary for the heart.  There has been some psychiatric literature about the mood enhancing effects of low dose testosterone as well and some good results with depressed patients with low test.  You guys are looking at it from the BBing perspective.  Most anti-aging docs treat guys 40 and over with documented hormone deficiencies.  Yes, there are still some bad docs out there but not like it was 10 yrs ago.
Free testosterone drops at a rate of approx 1.5% per year after age 35, it is certainly variable but there are a lot of guys in their 40s, 50s, 60s and beyond who get amazing benefits (and minimal, if any side effects) when their testosterone levels are increased (inside the normal range).

Great post. Thanks 4 an intelligent response. 

[Mons Venus]

Just located this info on Androgel. 5 mg per day absorbtion using the 5 gram packet.

So 5mg of T per day considered juicing?  



In terms of bodybuilding, Androgel is not going to offer a whole lot. The highest dosed packet delivers only 5mg of testosterone to the body per day, which is not really that much when you are trying to pack on serious muscle mass. Were a person planning on getting a supraphysiological dose of testosterone with this drug, even say 25mg daily, it would require the regular daily use of 5 packets of the 5gram product. Try to use Androgel as a replacement for say testosterone cypionate or enanthate, as the sole drug in a cycle, and you would probably need even more. Combine this with the fact that injectable testosterone is just so much easier and cheaper to use, and we can see why Androgel doesn't circulate on the black market very often.

[Mons Venus]

can you continue to claim to be a natural bodybuilder?  no

btw, anything over 100 mg/week is not HRT

A 5g daily packet provides 5mg of T per day. 5X7= 35mg of T per week.

WOW! 

[chainsaw]

HRT is great.  I only do 200mg cym a week perscribed, and I haven't lost
and ounce of size "except for my injury".  I truley believe that if I did a year
of hRT, I could get, but hold my gains from someone doing a cycle for 12 weeks
of 750mgs of testosterone.  And not doing more.  even without pct.  I think pct
is a total lie, and is bullshit unless you are getting gyno.  Pct speeds nothing up
as far as test levels

[Dballn247]

A 5g daily packet provides 5mg of T per day. 5X7= 35mg of T per week.

WOW! 

Probably 4 packets a day.  That's why androgel has a pump.

[Van_Bilderass]

I think pct is a total lie, and is bullshit unless you are getting gyno.  Pct speeds nothing up
as far as test levels

What's PCT got to do with you if you are on constant test?

While PCT protocols aren't that well established, with tons of data, of course the usual PCT drugs will increase test levels and bring them up quicker after a cycle. Take HCG and the balls swell up within a day etc. The long term data is what's lacking since most get bloodwork done while still on the PCT drugs or when they just got off them. Will the test plummet gain?

[Van_Bilderass]

A 5g daily packet provides 5mg of T per day. 5X7= 35mg of T per week.

WOW! 

Put the gel on your nutsack and you can get up to 60% penetration vs. 10% elsewhere on the body. 

[Mons Venus]

Probably 4 packets a day.  That's why androgel has a pump.

Taken as prescribed for HRT= ONE packet per day = 35mgs of T per week.

Is 35mgs/week considered heavy juicing?

[Mons Venus]

Put the gel on your nutsack and you can get up to 60% penetration vs. 10% elsewhere on the body. 

Info says DO NOT APPLY TO NUTSACK. Just shoulders and abs.

[Dballn247]

I imagine he baths in it. 

No, but he does shave the tops of his feet to make the skin thinner for absorbtion purposes.  Oily skin and bloated face, but no real acne to speak of.  He lifts some heavy ass weight and he's very consistent.  Because the insurance pays for it, he never goes off.

Before going on the androgel, he wasn't some skinny pussy, he just had low test levels from using long acting esters like sustanon.

I have to give it to him, it's a good scam.

Taken as prescribed for HRT= ONE packet per day = 35mgs of T per week.

Is 35mgs/week considered heavy juicing?

His doctor has him prescribed at 5 packets a day, the pharmacy gives him 40 packets a week or the pump.  35 x5 165mg / week = juicing. 

Also that is what they say is abosorbed, maybe less maybe more.

[Mons Venus]

No, but he does shave the tops of his feet to make the skin thinner for absorbtion purposes.  Oily skin and bloated face, but no real acne to speak of.  He lifts some heavy ass weight and he's very consistent.  Because the insurance pays for it, he never goes off.

Before going on the androgel, he wasn't some skinny pussy, he just had low test levels from using long acting esters like sustanon.

I have to give it to him, it's a good scam.

His doctor has him prescribed at 5 packets a day, the pharmacy gives him 40 packets a week or the pump.  35 x5 165mg / week = juicing. 
Also that is what they say is abosorbed, maybe less maybe more.

At those levels (5 packs) I agree, that is juicing.

[Van_Bilderass]

Info says DO NOT APPLY TO NUTSACK. Just shoulders and abs.

Yes I know. Probably because of concern over increased DHT conversion or whatever. It is more effective though, not that I would do it or seriously recommend it.

[Dballn247]

All HRT is juicing, it's just a way to legally do and say fuck the system.

When you throw HGH and deca into the mix..... you legally "stack."

Godbless the HRT doctors.

[G o a t b o y]

Yes I know. Probably because of concern over increased DHT conversion or whatever. It is more effective though, not that I would do it or seriously recommend it.

Who cares about DHT?  Ever hear of Proscar?

[Mons Venus]

Who cares about DHT?  Ever hear of Proscar?

The problem with Proscar is it lowers both DHT and T levels.

[Van_Bilderass]

Who cares about DHT?  Ever hear of Proscar?

I would never take Proscar.

The problem with Proscar is it lowers both DHT and T levels.

Not that you would worry about lower T on HRT.