333386 Officially Owned...

[Hugo Chavez]

Include me with millions of others who are not going to be raped by lazy bums voting themselves a pay increase at my expense.   

well, taking a page out of the psycho rightwing playbook.  Since you don't believe in democracy.  Since you want to exclude yourself from the process.  Since you think your minority matters more. You clearly do not love America.  You clearly see such a major fault in America that you won't go along with what the majority wants.  You think they don't matter.  You think you're more important than majority opinion of the American People!  Love it or leave it bro...  Seeya... Maybe you can find a time machine and travel back to some fascist regime that better suits you.  That is a rightwing thing to say, maybe you should follow the advice buddy

[Soul Crusher]

well, taking a page our of the psycho rightwing playbook.  Since you don't believe in democracy.  Since you want to exclude yourself from the process.  Since you think your minority matters more. You clearly do not love America.  You clearly see such a major fault in America that you won't go along with what the majority wants.  You think they don't matter.  You think you're more important than majority opinion of the American People!  Love it or leave it bro...  Seeya... Maybe you can find a time machine and travel back to some fascist regime that better suits you.  That is a rightwing thing to say, maybe you should follow the advice buddy

No, I will pay my taxes, but any tax increase to fund someone elses healthcare will not be paid.  I will either spend more on office expenses to get myself under the cap or adjust other finances to avoid this, as will millions of other Subchapter S companies like myself. 

I am not going to be a pinata for some lazy slob who wants to vote thesmevles more benefits from my income.   

Sorry, tough shit.     

[andreisdaman]

"Provides coverage for almost all Americans, even if the government needs to subsidize health care for those who can’t afford it."
 
63 Favor 31 Oppose 6 Unsure  7/27-28/09


"Regardless of how you usually vote, who do you think has better ideas about reforming the health care system: Barack Obama, or the Republicans in Congress?"

Barack Obama 55% Republicans in Congress 26% Both 1% Neither 7% Unsure 11% 7/24-28/09 55 26 1 7 11


"Do you think the federal government should guarantee health insurance for all Americans, or isn't this the responsibility of the federal government?"

Should Guarantee Not Responsibility Unsure   
                 % % %   
 7/24-28/09 55 38 7   
 6/12-16/09 64 30 6   
 3/12-16/09 62 30 8

http://www.pollingreport.com/health.htm

CBS NEWS/NEW YORK TIMES POLL. Jan. 20-25, 2006.

"Which of the following three statements comes closest to expressing your overall view of the health care system in the United States? (1) On the whole, the health care system works pretty well and only minor changes are necessary to make it work better. OR, (2) There are some good things in our health care system, but fundamental changes are needed. OR, (3) Our health care system has so much wrong with it that we need to completely rebuild it."

8% Minor Changes - 56% Fundamental Changes - 34% Completely Rebuild - 2% Unsure

"Do you think the federal government should guarantee health insurance for all Americans, or isn't this the responsibility of the federal government?"

62% Should Guarantee - 31% Not Their Responsibility - 7% Unsure

"How concerned are you about the health care costs you are facing now or will face in the future: a lot, some, not much, or not at all?"

61% A Lot - 26% Some - 8% Not Much - 5% Not At All
This poll may be available CLICK HERE

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


65% OF AMERICANS SUPPORT GOVERNMENT HEALTH INSURANCE EVEN IF TAXES INCREASE
A nationwide survey by the authoritative Pew Research Center found that 65% of Americans said they support "government health insurance even if taxes increase." Even among those identified as "social conservatives," 59% support a tax-financed government system. For other groups, the percent supporting were: "populist conservatives" (63 percent), "conservative Democrats" (73 %) and "liberals" (90 percent). Only one group, "Enterprisers" (libertarian conservatives), did not provide majority support (24 %)
Pew Research Center, "Beyond Red vs. Blue," Survey Report, 5/10/05
* * *
A Seattle ballot initiative advising the mayor and council that "health care is a right" and that "Congress should implement that right" passed with 69.8% of the vote.
Seattle City Council Advisory Ballot Measure No. 1, November 2005
* * *
Medicare is viewed favorably by 96 % of U.S. adults, according to a Harris Interactive poll of 2,242 residents. "Universal health insurance" was favored either "somewhat" or ‘strongly" by 75 % of respondents.
Wall Street Journal / Harris Poll, 10/20/05
* * *
Almost three-quarters of working Americans (72%) would like to see the federal government "guarantee health coverage for all Americans," a finding which crosses party affiliations from Democrats (88 %) to Independents (73 %) and Republicans (55 percent). Just 30 % of working Americans say they are satisfied with the health care system, down from 36% in 1994.
Peter D. Hart Research Associates, "Labor Day: 2005, The State of Working America," August 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUSINESS HEALTH CARE SURVEY from PR Newswire of February 20, 2006
SMC Business Councils is a non-profit trade association representing 3,500 small business owners in western and central Pennsylvania, which conducted an online survey last week of 150 local small business owners' current thinking about issues related to skyrocketing health care costs.

According to SMC President Cliff Shannon, "Business owners' frustrations with seemingly uncontrollable health insurance costs are mounting. Passing along more costs to their employees -- or even dropping job-based coverage altogether -- is seen by larger and larger numbers of entrepreneurs as a financial and competitive necessity. And although deep misgivings remain about the consequences and costs of a national, single-payer health care system, there is increasing agreement that this outcome may be inevitable."

Nearly two-thirds of SMC respondents said they thought that a national, single-payer system was undesirable - but nearly one-half of all surveyed agreed that a national, single payer system is (politically) inevitable.

Comments from respondents included: 1) "American business is at a huge disadvantage due to high health care costs." 2) "A universal standardized system that covers everybody would be fair and probably less expensive for each individual." 3) "A national health care system is an absolute necessity to keep this country's businesses competitive with the rest of the world."
The original story may still be available: CLICK HERE



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

HEALTHCARE OF GREAT CONCERN TO REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS ALIKE, from Gallup News Service, by David W. Moore
Two-thirds of Americans say they personally worry A GREAT DEAL about the availability and affordability of healthcare, according to the latest Gallup Poll, making that issue the MOST WORRISOME among a dozen included in the poll. 57, 66 and 78% of Republicans, Independents and Democrats worried "a great deal" about the availability and affordability of healthcare. For each political category that was more than were worried about the Social Security system, the availability and affordability of energy, Drug use, Crime and violence, the possibility of future terrorist attacks in the U.S., the economy, hunger and homelessness, Illegal immigration, the quality of the environment, Unemployment or Race relations.

To compare the relative importance of the issues among the partisan groups, it's important to take into account the average tendency of Democrats to express more worry than Republicans on most issues. For this purpose, a "net worry" scored has been calculated by subtracting the average percentage who worry in each group from the percentage in that group who worry about each specific issue. For example, 30% of Democrats say they are worried a great deal about race relations, compared with 18% of Republicans, suggesting a big difference (of 12 points) between the two groups. But as it turns out, Democrats on average are worried more than Republicans by 13 points -- 52% vs. 39%, respectively, suggesting that race relations is relatively no more worrisome to Democrats than Republicans. The "net worry" score takes this adjustment into account.

The difference in worry between Republicans and Democrats was greater with respect to the economy, the quality of the environment, hunger and homelessness or unemployment than it was for the health care issue.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PUBLIC OPINION ON UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE


Summaries from several polls by Ruy Teixeira

The public wants the government to play a leading role in providing health care for all. For example, in an October, 2003 Washington Post/ABC poll, by almost a two-to-one margin, Americans said that they preferred a universal system that would provide coverage to everyone under a government program, as opposed to the current employer-based system. Similarly, in Kaiser polls from 1992 to 2000, a large majority of the public agreed that the federal government should guarantee medical care for people who don’t have health insurance. In a slightly different question asked more recently by Kaiser in June 2003, more than seven in ten adults agreed that the government should guarantee health insurance for all citizens, even if it means repealing most of the tax cuts passed under President George W. Bush, while less than one-quarter disagreed with this statement. Finally, the last time Gallup asked whether the federal government should make sure all Americans have health coverage, they agreed that was a federal government responsibility by 62-35 (November, 2002).

American overwhelmingly agree that access to health care should be a right. In 2000 just as in 1993, eight in ten agreed that health care should be provided equally to everyone, and over half agreed strongly or completely. In addition, in 2004, 76% agreed strongly or somewhat that access health care should be a right.

The public says it is willing to pay more in taxes to provide every American with health care coverage. In August, 2003, Pew found Americans favoring, by 67-26, the US government guaranteeing "health insurance for all citizens", even if that meant repealing most of "recent tax cuts". And the majority was scarcely diminished (67-29) by referring not to repealing tax cuts but more directly to "raising taxes". Similarly, Greenberg Quinlan Rosner/Public Opinion Strategies (GQR/POS) found, in January, 2004, a 69-28 majority saying they would be willing to pay more per year in federal taxes to assure every American citizen received health care coverage.

Willingness to pay more in taxes for universal coverage is a "soft commitment". For example, when phrased as whether the respondent would be willing to pay more either in higher insurance premiums or higher taxes--in order to increase the number of insured Americans, 51 % say they would not, compared to 45 % who say they would. And, in the GQR/POS survey, when asked how much they’d be willing to pay in additional taxes to assure universal coverage for American citizens, 40% would not name a dollar figure at all and 16 % named a figure under $100. [EINO: The question would more appropriately be worded "How many of you are willing to pay additional premium and taxes so that the egregious salaries and redundant administration and stockholder profit could continue to be extracted out of the health care system?"]

The public is also not completely clear on whether the federal government actually has to lead the way on universal coverage. When asked specifically about responsibility for covering the uninsured, four in ten people (43 percent) do say that the federal government should have the most responsibility for providing health insurance coverage to the uninsured, but two in ten (20 percent) say that state governments should be most responsible, and about one in ten (11 percent) say that employers should be most responsible. Another two in ten (18 percent) think that the responsibility belongs to none of these or to another group. (June 2003 Kaiser poll)
For Mr. Teixera's original summary CLICK HERE

For the Century Foundation Polls CLICK HERE   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PUBLIC OPINION OF CONSUMER-DRIVEN PLANS
Which one of the following do you think is the MOST important reason to have health insurance?

71% - To protect against high medical bills
25% - To pay for everyday health care expenses
03% - Don't know

Catastrophic Coverage: Opinions

Suppose you heard about a type of insurance plan that only starts paying once you (and your family) have paid ($2,000/$5,000) of medical expenses out of your pocket. After that, it would cover medical expenses like traditional insurance, requiring you to pay some co-payments each time you use services. The monthly premium for the plan would be less than half of what you would pay for a typical comprehensive health insurance policy.

Would you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion about this type of health plan?

56% - Very unfavorable
21% - Somewhat unfavorable
13% - Somewhat favorable
05% - Very favorable


Would you feel well protected, or would you feel vulnerable to high medical bills with this type of health plan?

79% - Vulnerable
16% - Well protected
05% - Don't know

Consumer-Driven Plans: Opinions

(Asked of those with employer-sponsored health insurance) There is a new type of health plan that some employers are considering. It works like this: your employer pays for a health plan that only starts to pay after you have spent ($2,000/$4,000) in medical expenses. They also put ($1,000/$2,000) in an account you can use for medical costs. If your medical expenses are more than ($1,000/$2,000), you have to pay with your own money until you hit the ($2,000/$4,000) limit.

Would you have a favorable or unfavorable opinion about this type of health plan?

52% - Very unfavorable
21% - Somewhat unfavorable
16% - Somewhat favorable
06% - Very favorable
05% - Don't know


Would you feel well protected, or would you feel vulnerable to high medical bills with this type of health plan?
78% - Vulnerable
18% - Well protected
05% - Don't know


And by political party and ideology - unfavorable opinion of these consumer-driven plans:

67% of Republicans
74% of Independents
78% of Democrats


68% of Conservatives
70% of Moderates
79% of Liberals

For Poll at official Kaiser site CLICK HERE
BEYOND RED VS. BLUE
from The Pew Research Center Survey Report of May 10, 2005
Solid majorities of every group, with the sole exception of Enterprisers, favor a government guarantee of health insurance for all Americans, even if it means raising taxes. Across the electorate, support for guaranteed health insurance ranges from 55% among Upbeats and 59% among Social Conservatives to 90% among Liberals. By contrast, Enterprisers strongly oppose guaranteed health insurance for all, if it means higher taxes (76% oppose, 23% favor).

Percent favoring government health insurance for all, even if taxes increase:
65% of the total
23% of enterprisers
59% of social conservatives
63% of pro-government conservatives
55% of upbeats
64% of disaffecteds
73% of conservative Democrats
65% of disadvantaged Democrats
90% of liberals
For Full Poll Report CLICK HERE
POLL FINDS WOMEN MORE LIKELY TO WORRY ABOUT HEALTH CARE COSTS
Women are more likely than men to say that they are very worried about being able to afford health care.

Four in 10 (40%) adult women in the U.S. say that they are "very worried" about not being able to afford the health care services they need, compared with fewer than three in 10 (27%) men.  Women are also more likely than men to say they are "very worried" about being able to afford prescription drugs (40% of women versus 29% of men) and having to pay more for health care or insurance (49% of women versus 41% of men).  The gender gap may be due, in part, to the facts that women are often the primary health care decision-makers in the home, that they generally have more significant health care needs than men, and that they are disproportionately lower income.

For complete poll report CLICK HERE
PUBLIC OPINION ON UNIVERSAL HEALTH CARE
Summaries from several polls by Ruy Teixeira

The public wants the government to play a leading role in providing health care for all. For example, in an October, 2003 Washington Post/ABC poll, by almost a two-to-one margin, Americans said that they preferred a universal system that would provide coverage to everyone under a government program, as opposed to the current employer-based system. Similarly, in Kaiser polls from 1992 to 2000, a large majority of the public agreed that the federal government should guarantee medical care for people who don’t have health insurance. In a slightly different question asked more recently by Kaiser in June 2003, more than seven in ten adults agreed that the government should guarantee health insurance for all citizens, even if it means repealing most of the tax cuts passed under President George W. Bush, while less than one-quarter disagreed with this statement. Finally, the last time Gallup asked whether the federal government should make sure all Americans have health coverage, they agreed that was a federal government responsibility by 62-35 (November, 2002).

American overwhelmingly agree that access to health care should be a right. In 2000 just as in 1993, eight in ten agreed that health care should be provided equally to everyone, and over half agreed strongly or completely. In addition, in 2004, 76% agreed strongly or somewhat that access health care should be a right.

The public says it is willing to pay more in taxes to provide every American with health care coverage. In August, 2003, Pew found Americans favoring, by 67-26, the US government guaranteeing "health insurance for all citizens", even if that meant repealing most of "recent tax cuts". And the majority was scarcely diminished (67-29) by referring not to repealing tax cuts but more directly to "raising taxes". Similarly, Greenberg Quinlan Rosner/Public Opinion Strategies (GQR/POS) found, in January, 2004, a 69-28 majority saying they would be willing to pay more per year in federal taxes to assure every American citizen received health care coverage.

Willingness to pay more in taxes for universal coverage is a "soft commitment". For example, when phrased as whether the respondent would be willing to pay more either in higher insurance premiums or higher taxes--in order to increase the number of insured Americans, 51 % say they would not, compared to 45 % who say they would. And, in the GQR/POS survey, when asked how much they’d be willing to pay in additional taxes to assure universal coverage for American citizens, 40% would not name a dollar figure at all and 16 % named a figure under $100. [EINO: The question would more appropriately be worded "How many of you are willing to pay additional premium and taxes so that the egregious salaries and redundant administration and stockholder profit could continue to be extracted out of the health care system?"]

The public is also not completely clear on whether the federal government actually has to lead the way on universal coverage. When asked specifically about responsibility for covering the uninsured, four in ten people (43 percent) do say that the federal government should have the most responsibility for providing health insurance coverage to the uninsured, but two in ten (20 percent) say that state governments should be most responsible, and about one in ten (11 percent) say that employers should be most responsible. Another two in ten (18 percent) think that the responsibility belongs to none of these or to another group. (June 2003 Kaiser poll)
For Mr. Teixera's original summary CLICK HEREhttp://www.emergingdemocraticmajorityweblog.com/donkeyrising/archives/001291.php

For the Century Foundation Polls CLICK HEREhttp://www.tcf.org/list.asp?type=NC&pubid=1093    (Century Foundation Sept 7, 2005) 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/01/opinion/polls/main2528357.shtml

By almost a 2-1 margin in this poll, 62 percent to 32 percent, Americans said they preferred a universal system that would provide coverage to everyone under a government program, as opposed to the current employer-based system.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1019-10.htm
http://www.everybodyinnobodyout.org/DOCS/Polls.htm#GovtGuar

Hugo..you mean to tell me you actually sat down and typed all this stuff?  Just to prove a point?..you are HARDCORE man!!!

[Soul Crusher]

It was a cut and paste job.

As far as me being owned - thats funny considering other than maybe one story I got wrong on the SS matter,  no one has proved me factually wrong on almost anything.   

[Hugo Chavez]

No, I will pay my taxes, but any tax increase to fund someone elses healthcare will not be paid.  I will either spend more on office expenses to get myself under the cap or adjust other finances to avoid this, as will millions of other Subchapter S companies like myself. 

I am not going to be a pinata for some lazy slob who wants to vote thesmevles more benefits from my income.   

Sorry, tough shit.     

So that majority that wants universal healthcare are all lazy slobs?... wow, you really do hate Americans.  Actually do you even consider them Americans since you don't think a large percentage of their voices are even valid?  You said it!  Shit, we're getting to the heart of some epic hatred there 3333... true colors true colors!  I called it right with you.

[Hugo Chavez]

Hugo..you mean to tell me you actually sat down and typed all this stuff?  Just to prove a point?..you are HARDCORE man!!!

no, but it took a few to find the polls which make the point.  The point wouldn't have been much without backing it up.

[George Whorewell]

Im not getting involved in this debate because I am too lazy to read everything posted above.

But Hugo, its common sense; If you pay taxes and someone else doesn't and the government decided to bend you over and and take a shit load more of your income to pay for those who don't pay anything ( oh and by the way, the have nots out number the haves) wouldn't you object?

Also, do you really find it astounding that those who dont pay any taxes support this kind of legislation? Gee- I think I'll oppose government programs that give me free money  

The fact that young people support this nonsense is also not difficult to fathom in light of the fact that most pay no taxes, have no concept of what it is to work for a living and are educated in American Universities that preach this socialist propaganda bs.

Also Hugo, no offense- but are these outfits that you yanked these statistics from unbiased?  

[Hugo Chavez]

It was a cut and paste job.

As far as me being owned - thats funny considering other than maybe one story I got wrong on the SS matter,  no one has proved me factually wrong on almost anything.   

oh I think what you've been exposed on here is enough.  The things you've said, probably without even thinking it over, showing your true colors, the answers you have refused to address and just ignored show a little self ownage there bro.  deny it all you want, it won't change the fact.

[Soul Crusher]

So that majority that wants universal healthcare are all lazy slobs?... wow, you really do hate Americans.  Actually do you even consider them Americans since you don't think a large percentage of their voices are even valid?  You said it!  Shit, we're getting to the heart of some epic hatred there 3333... true colors true colors!  I called it right with you.

It is not healthy for our country when 50% of the voting population pay no taxes at all and can vote themselves a pay increase from a smaller and smaller and smaller percentage of people who do pay taxes.  Those people are always going to vote for the guy who promises more free shit at the expense of the other 49%.    

At some point the golden goose is killed and whole society collapses.  Do you realize that the top 1% pay 40% of all income taxes?  

And, yes, I do despise all able bodied people on welfare.  

 

[Hugo Chavez]

Im not getting involved in this debate because I am too lazy to read everything posted above.

But Hugo, its common sense; If you pay taxes and someone else doesn't and the government decided to bend you over and and take a shit load more of your income to pay for those who don't pay anything ( oh and by the way, the have nots out number the haves) wouldn't you object?

Also, do you really find it astounding that those who dont pay any taxes support this kind of legislation? Gee- I think I'll oppose government programs that give me free money  

The fact that young people support this nonsense is also not difficult to fathom in light of the fact that most pay no taxes, have no concept of what it is to work for a living and are educated in American Universities that preach this socialist propaganda bs.

Also Hugo, no offense- but are these outfits that you yanked these statistics from unbiased?  

OK, so you're another who thinks that the lower classes don't have a valid say.  great, two of you on this board, can't say I'm shocked, I bet it's even more!

These outfits???  Look at the sources yourself, I posted links.  Those are all the major polls taken over the last several years.  Not some shit I yanked off of Michael Moore's web poll or something   Look, when you have poll after poll year after year that all show a majority for universal healthcare, you're going to have a real problem saying that isn't valid.

[Hugo Chavez]

Do you realize that the top 1% pay 40% of all income taxes?  

That number should be way higher.

[OzmO]

Interesting discussion guys, keep it going.


Maybe post a poll:

If you don't pay taxes should you be able to vote?

[Soul Crusher]

OK, so you're another who thinks that the lower classes don't have a valid say.  great, two of you on this board, can't say I'm shocked, I bet it's even more!

These outfits???  Look at the sources yourself, I posted links.  Those are all the major polls taken over the last several years.  Not some shit I yanked off of Michael Moore's web poll or something   Look, when you have poll after poll year after year that all show a majority for universal healthcare, you're going to have a real problem saying that isn't valid.

You are amazing - you cant see the problem, with allowing people to vote themselves a pay increase?   

[George Whorewell]

Lower classes have a valid say- But not when it comes to getting free hand outs from everyone else who isn't indigent. This isn't a fucking soup kitchen. Lower classes should get assistance from the government  and should recieve tax breaks or other cash incentives such as charitable donations. What they should not recieve is more of my income tax when they dont pay any income tax in the first place.

Peanlizing the successful ( or in actuality, those who aren't poor) is a slippery slope to nowhere.


Also- "Major Polls taken over several years."   A cursory glance shows that the most recent poll you posted was from 06'.

Not exactly a ringing endorsement on impartiality. I am sure I can rustle up some of my own "major polls taken over several years" which refute everything you posted.

Also, the demographics are certainly skewed in these polls and there is no cognizant definition of what Universal Healthcare means-- I dont think these major polls taken over several years correctly represent Obamacare as it stands today. What counts are the polls taken right now based on Obama's healthcare plan, not some nameless, faceless idea of "Universal Care."

[Hugo Chavez]

Interesting discussion guys, keep it going.


Maybe post a poll:

If you don't pay taxes should you be able to vote?

haha, it sounds so ludicrous but they actually think that.  They said it... Lose your job, lose your vote... wow!!!  It took me almost a year when I got out of the service to get a good job.  economy sucked bigtime then too.  I guess I wouldn't have mattered for that year.... 

[OzmO]

It seems like thats what they are saying.

Are you saying that 3333 and George?

[George Whorewell]

No, and I never posted anything resembling that anywhere.

Prove me wrong if you don't believe me.


This entire argument took a wrong turn somewhere. If tommorow a nationwide vote was held and someone was elected that decided everyone earning less than 100,000$ should pay no taxes and everyone (every household) making above 100k should have 50% of their income taxed, would that be ok with you also? Or is my disagreement with something that absurd indicative of my hostility toward those who dont pay taxes?

[Hugo Chavez]

Lower classes have a valid say- But not when it comes to getting free hand outs from everyone else who isn't indigent. This isn't a fucking soup kitchen. Lower classes should get assistance from the government  and should recieve tax breaks or other cash incentives such as charitable donations. What they should not recieve is more of my income tax when they dont pay any income tax in the first place.

Peanlizing the successful ( or in actuality, those who aren't poor) is a slippery slope to nowhere.


Also- "Major Polls taken over several years."

Not exactly a ringing endorsement on impartiality. I am sure I can rustle up some of my own "major polls taken over several years" which refute everything you posted.

Also, the demographics are certainly skewed in these polls and there is no cognizant definition of what Universal Healthcare means-- I dont think these major polls taken over several years correctly represent Obamacare as it stands today. What counts are the polls taken right now based on Obama's healthcare plan, not some nameless, faceless idea of "Universal Care."

what exactly do you want to go by?  Hannity's phone in polls?  What the hell do you mean it's not a ringing endorsement?  It's a thundering fucking endorsement.  Are you saying all the major polls that show this over years and years are all bias liberal?  hahahaha... do you have a CT for this one?  I'm getting a kick out of the massive increase in rightwing CTr's since the election.

Most of these polls ask questions that clearly illustrate what it will mean to pass.  So nice try, you must not have looked them over.

[George Whorewell]

Hugo take a chill pill bro- your off the reservation with this one. These polls you posted are not recent, most are not unbiased and most have nothing to do with Obama Care as presented today.

There is no conspiracy theory- Put on the news and take a look around you. Support for universal healthcare as presented by Obama and the democrats right now its a 50/50 proposition at best. Nothing else going on but reality-- Please come back to us Hugo. 

[Hugo Chavez]

No, and I never posted anything resembling that anywhere.

Prove me wrong if you don't believe me.


This entire argument took a wrong turn somewhere. If tommorow a nationwide vote was held and someone was elected that decided everyone earning less than 100,000$ should pay no taxes and everyone (every household) making above 100k should have 50% of their income taxed, would that be ok with you also? Or is my disagreement with something that absurd indicative of my hostility toward those who dont pay taxes?

yes you did, 333 more directly, but above you basically laid out their irrelevance.  You both provided reasons why the majority opinion is not valid.  but 333 did so more blantenly, you followed with supporting argument and additional backup to that.

[OzmO]

No, and I never posted anything resembling that anywhere.

Prove me wrong if you don't believe me.


This entire argument took a wrong turn somewhere. If tommorow a nationwide vote was held and someone was elected that decided everyone earning less than 100,000$ should pay no taxes and everyone (every household) making above 100k should have 50% of their income taxed, would that be ok with you also? Or is my disagreement with something that absurd indicative of my hostility toward those who dont pay taxes?

It wouldn't be ok with me and it would never happen.

[Hugo Chavez]

Hugo take a chill pill bro- your off the reservation with this one. These polls you posted are not recent, most are not unbiased and most have nothing to do with Obama Care as presented today.

There is no conspiracy theory- Put on the news and take a look around you. Support for universal healthcare as presented by Obama and the democrats right now its a 50/50 proposition at best. Nothing else going on but reality-- Please come back to us Hugo. 

WTF buddy, the first part of that post provided several recent polls along with a link to the rest of the polls taken over the last year.  The rest of the post is polling taken over the last several years just like I said it was.  The reason I posted both recent and past polls is give a better picture of how the country thinks on the matter and how it's changed or if it's changed.  How can you find fault with any of that

[George Whorewell]

Thank you- finally someone sees the light.

What you guys don't see is that this whole thing is a smokescreen to keep Obama and the Democrats in power. Its not a conspiracy theory, its just smart politics. If 2/3rds of the people dont have to pay taxes and 1/3rd do-- how the hell is the 1/3rd ever going to vote those in power out of office? Having a majority get free money while the minority busts its ass always ends up with everyone becoming collectively lazy and dependent on handouts rather than working, taking risks or increasing profits.  

Legalizing the illegals, Government mandated healthcare, raising taxes on corporations and the rich, taking control of the private sector= These are all things that tie into the democrats agenda. If the have nots outnumber the haves, even if the haves get fed up and dont want to pay anymore, where the hell are they going to go?

[Hugo Chavez]

I'm out for the rest of the day.  Talk later, good thread

[George Whorewell]

WTF buddy, the first part of that post provided several recent polls along with a link to the rest of the polls taken over the last year.  The rest of the post is polling taken over the last several years just like I said it was.  The reason I posted both recent and past polls is give a better picture of how the country thinks on the matter and how it's changed or if it's changed.  How can you find fault with any of that

I apologize, there was no date on the very first polls- which were recent. However, they dont really say anything about the plan as it is constituted now. The rest are from 03, 05, 06 and seem to be all over the place. The only relevant issue is whether Obama's plan has the support of the majority of Americans.