Why Are People in Revolt & Ready to Storm the Bastille?

[Decker]

The congressional committee that invbestigated this mess said that the CRA was the main culprit in this, yet these boobs want to blame Bush.

Bush is not blameless, but to put everything on him is just stupid.  no different than if we blamed the dot.com mess on Clinton.     
 

Federal Reserve: “Community Reinvestment Act – Not the Cause of the Housing Crisis”
WASHINGTON, D.C. – US Rep. Keith Ellison (D-MN) welcomed the unequivocal conclusion of Federal Reserve officials that the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) was not responsible for the on-going housing crisis.

“CRA has helped ensure that families and small businesses in lower income and minority communities are not starved of vital loans and investments,” Ellison said.    “There are those who continue to make ideologically-driven claims that CRA is the cause of our current woes.  The Fed’s research demonstrates without a doubt that those allegations simply don’t hold any water,” Ellison stated.
http://www.insightnews.com/index.php?id=4178:federal-reserve-community-reinvestment-act-not-the-cause-of-the-housing-crisis&option=com_content&catid=10:news&Itemid=6

[Mons Venus]

repubs need to STFU.

Bush took a surplus into a deficit, let 911 happen, lied about WMD, and shoved patriot act down our throats.  You couldn't bend over fast enough to defend that.

Suddenly obama is pulling bullshit and you're singing about revolution.  STFU, really.

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Soul Crusher]

http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/7-7-09-housing-crisis-report.pdf


Congress investigated this matter and disagrees with you. 

[Decker]

http://blog.heritage.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/7-7-09-housing-crisis-report.pdf


Congress investigated this matter and disagrees with you. 

You pony up a staff report authored by a right wing hack congressman as proof of a full blown congressional investigation?

No,no.

Look at the official, conclusive and thorough report submitted by the Fed.

All the garbage in that shitpiece you posted has been disproven time and again.

[tu_holmes]

Additionally, the health bill is scaring businesses from hiring anyone as well, and if they do, will do so only on a 1099 basis or through a temp agency or payroll service. 

Bullshit... The health plan is better for corporate America... I'll tell you why.

The average cost of healthcare to a corporation that provides it is 17%.

The government says they will take it over for a flat 8%.

Which one would most corporations go with? Hmmm?

This is GOOD for corporate america... Isn't that where the jobs are?

[Soul Crusher]

Bullshit... The health plan is better for corporate America... I'll tell you why.

The average cost of healthcare to a corporation that provides it is 17%.

The government says they will take it over for a flat 8%.

Which one would most corporations go with? Hmmm?

This is GOOD for corporate america... Isn't that where the jobs are?

Thank you for making my point all along on how this bill will wend private insurance and force everyone onto the govt plan whether employees like it or not.   

This is how the health bill ends private insurance in the long run and results in a govt takeover.     

[tu_holmes]

Thank you for making my point all along on how this bill will wend private insurance and force everyone onto the govt plan whether employees like it or not.  

This is how the health bill ends private insurance in the long run and results in a govt takeover.    

How does that prove your point about businesses not hiring people?

I agree that there are things about the healthcare plan I do not like... But business not liking it is not it.

The fact I probably won't have a choice bothers me... The fact that Insurance companies will likely be gone is another... That's job loss.

However, maybe it will cause some Insurance carriers to lower THEIR costs so they stay in business.

Competition is never bad right?

[Soul Crusher]

How does that prove your point about businesses not hiring people?

I agree that there are things about the healthcare plan I do not like... But business not liking it is not it.

The fact I probably won't have a choice bothers me... The fact that Insurance companies will likely be gone is another... That's job loss.

However, maybe it will cause some Insurance carriers to lower THEIR costs so they stay in business.

Competition is never bad right?

My business clients right now are not hiring because of uncertainty.  Uncertainty with new regs and uncertainty with taxes, especially in NYC.   So what they are doing is hiring only through temp agencies and payroll services and not offering anything as far as benes go.

Insurance companies need a wide pool of people paying and few claims so that hopefully the claims are less than the premiums collected.  The less peopel the carriers can include in the pool of insureds means that it will be impossible to stay in business, especially if they have to cover all sorts of conditions that they already dont have to. 

At least you are smart enough to see the point I have been making for weeks as to how millions will get dumped on the govt system wehether they like it or not. 

It seesm to me that the wealthy will be able to afford private insurance, but most people, whether they like it or not, wont even have the choice.       

[Mons Venus]

How does that prove your point about businesses not hiring people?

I agree that there are things about the healthcare plan I do not like... But business not liking it is not it.

The fact I probably won't have a choice bothers me... The fact that Insurance companies will likely be gone is another... That's job loss.

However, maybe it will cause some Insurance carriers to lower THEIR costs so they stay in business.

Competition is never bad right?

Monopolized competition is always best! 

[Soul Crusher]

Monopolized competition is always best! 

That is what will happen when only the govt insures health care.  There will be no comp., only whatever the govt offers.   

[tu_holmes]

It seesm to me that the wealthy will be able to afford private insurance, but most people, whether they like it or not, wont even have the choice.       

Unless they are in a company that happens to have the magic number under 8% or are a Google or a Yahoo or a Microsoft or whatever... Then yes... You're most likely correct.

[Mons Venus]

My business clients right now are not hiring because of uncertainty.  Uncertainty with new regs and uncertainty with taxes, especially in NYC.   So what they are doing is hiring only through temp agencies and payroll services and not offering anything as far as benes go.

Insurance companies need a wide pool of people paying and few claims so that hopefully the claims are less than the premiums collected.  The less peopel the carriers can include in the pool of insureds means that it will be impossible to stay in business, especially if they have to cover all sorts of conditions that they already dont have to. 

At least you are smart enough to see the point I have been making for weeks as to how millions will get dumped on the govt system wehether they like it or not. 

It seesm to me that the wealthy will be able to afford private insurance, but most people, whether they like it or not, wont even have the choice.       

Private insurance co's would rather see you DIE than pay your claim. FUUCK THEM!!

[Soul Crusher]

Private insurance co's would rather see you DIE than pay your claim. FUUCK THEM!!

And so will the govt when you get sick and it is broke because it underestimated how many people will get dumped on the system. 

[tu_holmes]

That is what will happen when only the govt insures health care.  There will be no comp., only whatever the govt offers.   

This happening right now... Insurance companies in cahoots.

[Soul Crusher]

Unless they are in a company that happens to have the magic number under 8% or are a Google or a Yahoo or a Microsoft or whatever... Then yes... You're most likely correct.

The only thing I can maybe see is if you have the presitgous positions at top law firms, banks, etc, you can negotiate for good insurance.

However, most employees will simply get dumped on the public plan because their companies will have to compete with other companies who do the same.  

I keep going back to my example of two plumbing companies in the same neighborhood.  As soon as one does it and is able to lower his prices and be more competitive than the other, the other company will follow and put its employees also on the public plan.

Lower costs of course is a good thing, however, I dont see how this does that.  Maybe the business has lower costs, but the costs are going to get shifted to the taxpayers in the form of higher taxes.      

[Mons Venus]

That is what will happen when only the govt insures health care.  There will be no comp., only whatever the govt offers.   

My buddy works for the VA. He loves his Government healthcare. HH6 loves his healthcare too.

Government healthcare is not the boggyman!

[Soul Crusher]

This happening right now... Insurance companies in cahoots.

Oh I agree!  There is really no competition right now.  I use myself for example.  When I went into business I wanted a low premimum high deductible plan, but that was not offered in NYS because of Ins. Regs. and the companies probably dont like it.  

I was forced to pay for expensive insurance that covers all sorts of things that would never apply to me.    

[tu_holmes]

The only thing I can maybe see is if you have the presitgous positions at top law firms, banks, etc, you can negotiate for good insurance.

However, most employees will simply get dumped on the public plan because their companies will have to compete with other companies who do the same.  

I keep going back to my example of two plumbing companies in the same neighborhood.  As soon as one does it and is able to lower his prices and be more competitive than the other, the other company will follow and put its employees also on the public plan.

Lower costs of course is a good thing, however, I dont see how this does that.  Maybe the business has lower costs, but the costs are going to get shifted to the taxpayers in the form of higher taxes.      

Maybe, but here's the next question... Let's say right now you have a premium... You pay some and the company pays some.

If you do the public healthcare, do you still have a premium? If not... Isn't that a good thing... I can keep a little extra money from the check, maybe my taxes go up a bit, but does it not equal out in the long run? I don't know... Just tossing stuff out there for thought.

[Soul Crusher]

Maybe, but here's the next question... Let's say right now you have a premium... You pay some and the company pays some.

If you do the public healthcare, do you still have a premium? If not... Isn't that a good thing... I can keep a little extra money from the check, maybe my taxes go up a bit, but does it not equal out in the long run? I don't know... Just tossing stuff out there for thought.

I really dont see how the govt is going to cover all sorts of things, like pre-existing condfitions, etc etc, and do it at a lower cost than a private company can. 

It just does not make any sense to me how we can cover 45 million new people, include all sorts of pre-existing conditions, lower income people, illegals, etc, and not have massive cost overruns and chaos when those people by definition will cost more than they pay in. 

It seems to me that there will have to be a new payroll tax or somwething to do this.

[a_joker10]

Good points 240.  This is exactly like the repubs now claiming the Obama admin is taking away the constitution.  News flash! Bush already ruined your rights with the Patriot Act but hey that was for national security and all so i guess it's okay right? Wrong!

I wouldn't listen to this Palin fan boy 240.  333 spreads bullsh*t all the time.  Remember how many people were suppose to be at the tea parties? HA! paled in comparison with the people who showed up to support Obama on the campaign trail, at his inauguration etc etc.  Just more lies trying to spread dis sent that isn't there because a majority support Obama.  

Oh wait!  That majority are all illegals and/or don't pay taxes right? hahaha more lies from the repub spin factory of Palin fan boys.  

So tell me if the Patriot was so bad, Why does Obama use it.

He could get rid of it. Instead he made it worse and far more reaching.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123638765474658467.html

The Obama Justice Department has adopted a legal stance identical to, if not more aggressive than, the Bush version. It argues that the court-forced disclosure of the surveillance programs would cause "exceptional harm to national security" by exposing intelligence sources and methods. Last Friday the Ninth Circuit denied the latest emergency motion to dismiss, again kicking matters back to Judge Walker.

In court documents filed hours later, Justice argues that the decision to release classified information "is committed to the discretion of the Executive Branch, and is not subject to judicial review. Moreover, the Court does not have independent power . . . to order the Government to grant counsel access to classified information when the Executive Branch has denied them such access." The brief continues that federal judges are "ill-equipped to second-guess the Executive Branch."

[George Whorewell]

Most of the fucktards that post here don't have a clue about what the Patriot Act does and never will because they are too lazy to do any research.

I have posted at least a dozen times in the past year what exactly the Patriot Act does and no one pays attention.

I'll give the concise version for our mentally challenged members-- All the Patriot Act does is allow information sharing between government agencies to be more efficent AND allow the government to use methods of investigation in fighting terrorism that it has used for literally 30 years+ in combating Drug Dealers and Spys. THATS IT!

Roving wiretaps, no knock warrants, phone tapping, the works= Have all been allowed for years and years and years by the Federal Government long before Bush ever became president.

Hope this helps.

[Decker]

I really dont see how the govt is going to cover all sorts of things, like pre-existing condfitions, etc etc, and do it at a lower cost than a private company can. 

It just does not make any sense to me how we can cover 45 million new people, include all sorts of pre-existing conditions, lower income people, illegals, etc, and not have massive cost overruns and chaos when those people by definition will cost more than they pay in. 

It seems to me that there will have to be a new payroll tax or somwething to do this.

Gov. insurance does not have to cover the cost of insurance executive salaries and stock options (http://www.harp.org/hmoexecs.htm)- hundreds of millions right there, sponsoring golf tournaments, or excess slick advertising campaigns with million dollar spokes people.

Once the gov. plan eliminates a great portion of these middle man sponges, the true cost of coverage should come into play. 

I'd rather have a gov. bureaucrat than a private bureaucrat deciding the validity of my coverage.  The gov. bureaucrat doesn't have his income tied to denying my insurance claim or the pressure to increase company share value by denying as many claims as possible.

That's a big reason I don't like privatized health insurance.  It just doesn't work well b/c of the profit motive.

[Soul Crusher]

Gov. insurance does not have to cover the cost of insurance executive salaries and stock options (http://www.harp.org/hmoexecs.htm)- hundreds of millions right there, sponsoring golf tournaments, or excess slick advertising campaigns with million dollar spokes people.

Once the gov. plan eliminates a great portion of these middle man sponges, the true cost of coverage should come into play. 

I'd rather have a gov. bureaucrat than a private bureaucrat deciding the validity of my coverage.  The gov. bureaucrat doesn't have his income tied to denying my insurance claim or the pressure to increase company share value by denying as many claims as possible.

That's a big reason I don't like privatized health insurance.  It just doesn't work well b/c of the profit motive.

I dont like the idea of third party pay insurance either, BUT, the govt will have ration care in the long run. 

[Decker]

I dont like the idea of third party pay insurance either, BUT, the govt will have ration care in the long run. 

Private insurance rations health care right now.

There's an appeals process...but good luck with that.

[Decker]

So tell me if the Patriot was so bad, Why does Obama use it.

He could get rid of it. Instead he made it worse and far more reaching.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123638765474658467.html

The Obama Justice Department has adopted a legal stance identical to, if not more aggressive than, the Bush version. It argues that the court-forced disclosure of the surveillance programs would cause "exceptional harm to national security" by exposing intelligence sources and methods. Last Friday the Ninth Circuit denied the latest emergency motion to dismiss, again kicking matters back to Judge Walker.

In court documents filed hours later, Justice argues that the decision to release classified information "is committed to the discretion of the Executive Branch, and is not subject to judicial review. Moreover, the Court does not have independent power . . . to order the Government to grant counsel access to classified information when the Executive Branch has denied them such access." The brief continues that federal judges are "ill-equipped to second-guess the Executive Branch."

To me, the problem with the FISA spying was not the spying itself for the most part, it was that Bush violated the terms of FISA to implement a secret extra-governmental spying program.  That's unconstitutional and illegal.

Obama's done no such thing.