Camile Paglia nails it. (Why cant most liberals be this sane?)

[Decker]

I understand your outrage over this, but there's no shortage of reasons why we MUST provide care to non-citizens. 

It's a myth that residents who are here illegally pay no taxes.  They buy goods and services just like the rest of us and they aren't tax-exempt just because they're foreign.  While it can be argued that they pay no federal or state income tax, I would counter that argument by saying that most of them are NOT earning wages that would be high enough to generate sufficient tax revenue in the first place. 

That said, we require parents of school-aged children to send their kids to school, regardless of citizenship status.  It would be highly irresponsible for us to require this, but then not provide even basic health care and immunizations to them.  Some of my friends have argued that we should not pay for their public education, but then in the next breath will complain about non-citizens being unable to speak English.  We want a more educated population, period.  This isn't a debatable point.

Although the dangers of communicable disease outbreaks are often overblown, are you willing to take the risk?  I'd rather pay a little bit more for a lot more peace of mind.  Sure, there's no guarantee that we'll stop every possible outbreak, but I certainly think it's prudent to move the odds in our favor and if we leave 8-10% of our population with virtually no healthcare whatsoever, then we're opening ourselves to unnecessary risks. 

The fear-mongers are continually focused on the wrong things, though. 

You make great points.

333..... is also assuming that 20% of the 47 million number are illegal aliens.  The US Census does not address that.

In other words, he's making shit up again.

[Soul Crusher]

Ok.

1.   There are no illegal aliens. 
2.  The post office is flush with cash.
3.  The national debt does not matter.
4.  Deficits dont matter. 
5.  Medicare is fine.
6.  Illegal immigration is a good thing,
7.  The govt is benevolent in everything it does. 

I got it decker.  Whether the number is 10 million or 20 million, its still outrageous to give even one border jumper a dime of our taxes without a airplane ticket home. 

[Decker]

Ok.

1.   There are no illegal aliens. 
2.  The post office is flush with cash.
3.  The national debt does not matter.
4.  Deficits dont matter. 
5.  Medicare is fine.
6.  Illegal immigration is a good thing,
7.  The govt is benevolent in everything it does. 

I got it decker.  Whether the number is 10 million or 20 million, its still outrageous to give even one border jumper a dime of our taxes without a airplane ticket home. 

The Census report I viewed refers to uninsured Americans.  I thought they meant american citizens. 

Tre was right.  Any worker in the US pays payroll taxes that fund medicare - the same program that keeps private insurance in business.  Why shouldn't illegals get the benefit they earned?  If a worker has a US based source of income, they get qualified retirement plan benefits.  It's the law.  I think healthcare should be the same.

I dont' think Obama's plan extends insurance to illegals though.

[Soul Crusher]

The Census report I viewed refers to uninsured Americans.  I thought they meant american citizens. 

Tre was right.  Any worker in the US pays payroll taxes that fund medicare - the same program that keeps private insurance in business.  Why shouldn't illegals get the benefit they earned?  If a worker has a US based source of income, they get qualified retirement plan benefits.  It's the law.  I think healthcare should be the same.

I dont' think Obama's plan extends insurance to illegals though.

Once they get amnesty like he is pushing they will.  This is another scam being pushed by your beloved Democrats. 

No, law breakers should not get medicaire, its already on its heels and you want illegals to get it now too? 

 

[24KT]

We should treat them in the ER, and then immediately proceed to call ICE for deportation.

Additionally, most schools are funded by local property taxes.  Most illegals dont pay property taxes and live in flop houses or grossly overcrowded illegal apartments where the locality is completely overwhelmed.   

That is one of the most ridiculous statements you've ever made on these boards, ...and you've made plenty.
Regardless of the level of their accomodations, they're still paying property taxes. No landlord, ...even ...especially a slum landlord is going to pay property taxes on behalf of his/her tenants. Those property taxes are included in the rental fees charged. You name me one landlord that doesn't figure property taxes into the rental price. C'mon, ...I dare you, ...infact... I double dog dare you! 

[Soul Crusher]

That is one of the most ridiculous statements you've ever made on these boards, ...and you've made plenty.
Regardless of the level of their accomodations, they're still paying property taxes. No landlord, ...even ...especially a slum landlord is going to pay property taxes on behalf of his/her tenants. Those property taxes are included in the rental fees charged. You name me one landlord that doesn't figure property taxes into the rental price. C'mon, ...I dare you, ...infact... I double dog dare you! 

Jag, again, you are clueles.  Look up Brewster New York and see the disaster that is taking place over there etc. 

Illegals over crowd an area and never even come close to paying for themselves. 

[Tre]

We should treat them in the ER, and then immediately proceed to call ICE for deportation.

Additionally, most schools are funded by local property taxes.  Most illegals dont pay property taxes and live in flop houses or grossly overcrowded illegal apartments where the locality is completely overwhelmed.   

A portion of the rent they pay does go toward property taxes in almost every state. 

ICE is a federal agency...grossly overpaid and inefficient.  And who pays the costs of deportation?  We do.  And when they come back, we pay it again. 

While there are some seriously undesirable immigrants - both legal and illegal - most are just as peace-loving and hard-working as I am and we should be welcoming more of them into our citizenry and into our workforce. 

[Soul Crusher]

A portion of the rent they pay does go toward property taxes in almost every state. 

ICE is a federal agency...grossly overpaid and inefficient.  And who pays the costs of deportation?  We do.  And when they come back, we pay it again. 

While there are some seriously undesirable immigrants - both legal and illegal - most are just as peace-loving and hard-working as I am and we should be welcoming more of them into our citizenry and into our workforce. 

Almost everyone I have ever met does not want to be American.  They want to work for cash here to send home to "their country" so they can build a house down in guatamala or wherever.  Additionally, many file tax returns and claim the EITC based on dependetns in other countries. 

I have way too much experience with what goes on in this than to fall for the bullshit.   

[Parker]

A portion of the rent they pay does go toward property taxes in almost every state. 

ICE is a federal agency...grossly overpaid and inefficient.  And who pays the costs of deportation?  We do.  And when they come back, we pay it again. 

While there are some seriously undesirable immigrants - both legal and illegal - most are just as peace-loving and hard-working as I am and we should be welcoming more of them into our citizenry and into our workforce. 

Tre, if you break the law to get here, that means you don't care about the laws that still exist...Kinda like how Christians pick and chose out of the bible what to follow...And many continue the same practices that they did in their country, like beating their wives, driving drunk, driving w/o a license...And they get pissed when you question them about it...This is their country not yours...combine that with the fact that many don't have any formal education, let alone are literate in their native tongue, you have a recipe for disaster...
These people are also being exploited because they are the new underclass.

[Tre]

Once they get amnesty like he is pushing they will.  This is another scam being pushed by your beloved Democrats. 

No, law breakers should not get medicaire, its already on its heels and you want illegals to get it now too? 

I've never had to use the services of a 'free clinic' in my life, but only because I hit life's lottery.  That doesn't make me a bleeding heart, it makes me a realist. 

99% of us are just a heartbeat away from being in such a position.  Even though it's unlikely to happen, it *could* and I don't mind having my tax dollars supporting that safety net.  No, I don't want to use it and hope I never have to, but it needs to be there.

It's just flat-out irresponsible and against our own self-interests not to provide basic healthcare to anyone who needs it.  Does that mean than the 48-year-old, non-citizen father of 5 automatically gets a liver transplant when he asks for it?  No, but if he's got hepatitis, we're going to pay the cost to treat him immediately.  Why?  BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT HIM SPREADING IT!  Trust me when I say that you'd much rather pay $10/year more in taxes than to deal with hepatitis in your neighborhood or workplace. 

Regarding the issue of amnesty for immigrants, the reality of the situation is that both sides of the aisle want non-citizens here, because the power brokers - regardless of which side they're on - all benefit from the cheap labor that illegal immigrants provide. 

And guess what?  YOU benefit, too...we all do, because the costs of many good and services are kept down because of the cheap labor available to us.

So, don't think for a moment that Democrats have sole ownership of the pro-immigrant agenda.  The rhetoric from each side may be different, but that's the only difference. 

[Tre]

Tre, if you break the law to get here, that means you don't care about the laws that still exist...Kinda like how Christians pcik and chose out of the bible what to follow...And many continue the same practices that they did in their country, like beating their wives, driving drunk, driving w/o a license...And they get pissed when you question them about it...This is their country not yours...combine that with the fact that many don't have any formal education, let alone are literal in their native tongue, you have a recipe for disaster...
These people are also being exploited because they are the new underclass.

Excellent post and I will add to that something I've been saying for well over a decade and that is that America NEEDS its underclass. 

Without a true underclass, the American Dream would cease to exist. 

[Decker]

Once they get amnesty like he is pushing they will.  This is another scam being pushed by your beloved Democrats. 

What are you talking about?

No, law breakers should not get medicaire, its already on its heels and you want illegals to get it now too? 

Illegal aliens are not eligible for medicare.
http://www.medicare.gov/MedicareEligibility/Home.asp?dest=NAV|Home|GeneralEnrollment#TabTop

But they are eligible for emergency care.  I think that has something to do with our customs and that jesus thing.  We don't let people die or suffer needlessly.

 

[Parker]

Excellent post and I will add to that something I've been saying for well over a decade and that is that America NEEDS its underclass. 

Without a true underclass, the American Dream would cease to exist. 

This man alluded to it...

[Hedgehog]

We should treat them in the ER, and then immediately proceed to call ICE for deportation.

Additionally, most schools are funded by local property taxes.  Most illegals dont pay property taxes and live in flop houses or grossly overcrowded illegal apartments where the locality is completely overwhelmed.   

ER care is the most expensive kind of health care.

A reason why so much money in the USA is going to health care, is because so many don't have health insurance and have to rely on ER care.

Eg, think of a non-insured person who gets stomach ache.

But instead of seeing a doctor, he or she waits. Until there is a bleeding ulcer and they have to seek care at the ER.

[Soul Crusher]

ER care is the most expensive kind of health care.

A reason why so much money in the USA is going to health care, is because so many don't have health insurance and have to rely on ER care.

Eg, think of a non-insured person who gets stomach ache.

But instead of seeing a doctor, he or she waits. Until there is a bleeding ulcer and they have to seek care at the ER.

Fine - treat them and send them home. 

On my way to work in the morning, these bums are lined up on the sides of the streets for two miles.  Its ridiculous.   

[Hedgehog]

Fine - treat them and send them home. 

On my way to work in the morning, these bums are lined up on the sides of the streets for two miles.  Its ridiculous.   

Why use the most expensive kind of health care to treat these "bums"?

It doesn't make any sense.

Why should people be excluded from decent health care based on "pre-condition"?

[Al Doggity]

Excellent post and I will add to that something I've been saying for well over a decade and that is that America NEEDS its underclass. 

Without a true underclass, the American Dream would cease to exist. 

Haha... did you read his post??? He was disagreeing with you!

[Soul Crusher]

Why use the most expensive kind of health care to treat these "bums"?

It doesn't make any sense.

Why should people be excluded from decent health care based on "pre-condition"?

They shouldnt be here in the first place.  If they get sick, I agree treat em, and ship em out. 

[timfogarty]

Additionally, most schools are funded by local property taxes.  Most illegals dont pay property taxes and live in flop houses or grossly overcrowded illegal apartments where the locality is completely overwhelmed.   

Most of the 12 million illegals rent standard apartments.   The landlords pay property tax on those units.  Flop houses???  Overcrowded illegal apartments?  You have a very strange view of the world.

Know how most undocumented immigrants arrive in the US?  By plane on tourists and student visas.

[Soul Crusher]

Most of the 12 million illegals rent standard apartments.   The landlords pay property tax on those units.  Flop houses???  Overcrowded illegal apartments?  You have a very strange view of the world.

Know how most undocumented immigrants arrive in the US?  By plane on tourists and student visas.

No, I see my neighborhood and what i see on the way to work each morning.   

[Al Doggity]

No, I see my neighborhood and what i see on the way to work each morning.   

How do you manage to see overcrowded flophouse conditions on your way to work? You travel through the Bronx to get to work, right? How can you tell if an apartment in an apartment building is overcrowded when you drive by?

I've (sort of ) lived in the Bronx before, and this doesn''t match my observations of what went on there. There were several families that quite clearly had to be illegal immigrants,  but they lived regular American lives. One family to an apartment, getting up and going to work everyday, buying  clothes, sending kids to school, etc.

[Soul Crusher]

How do you manage to see overcrowded flophouse conditions on your way to work? You travel through the Bronx to get to work, right? How can you tell if an apartment in an apartment building is overcrowded when you drive by?

I've (sort of ) lived in the Bronx before, and this doesn''t match my observations of what went on there. There were several families that quite clearly had to be illegal immigrants,  but they lived regular American lives. One family to an apartment, getting up and going to work everyday, buying  clothes, sending kids to school, etc.

I am in woodlawn and go on Yonkers Ave. in the AM.  There are no less than a few thousand illegals along the sides of the streets each morning.

Guess what, there are also boarded up stores, garbage, beer bottles, etc laying on the street, while the cops pull over people for stop sign violations and tasil light violations.   

One of my friends livbes on Yonkers ave. and had to go out there with shovel to get these vermin from sitting on her stoop and leaving trash on the property. 

[Al Doggity]

A few thousand? 

I don't know anything about Yonkers ave, but if what you describe is true (which I suspect it isn't), then it is certainly inconsistent with what goes on in most parts of the south bronx.

[Soul Crusher]

A few thousand? 

I don't know anything about Yonkers ave, but if what you describe is true (which I suspect it isn't), then it is certainly inconsistent with what goes on in most parts of the south bronx.

There are more illegals in westchester, like port chester, yonkers, nerw rochelle, mt. kisco, elmsford, than there are in the SB.     

[MM2K]

Why should people be excluded from decent health care based on "pre-condition"?

Because its too expensive.