IS THE BIBLE'S AUTHOR REALLY GOD?

[MCWAY]

I really don't want to get into this again with you McWay.

Of course you don't. Even you get tired of looking dopey, after a while.

Last time we had this discussion I mentioned that many ancient pagan deities, especially the mystery solar deities, prefigured the Jesus myth in so many ways that the eary Church had to invent the Doctrine of Diabolical mimicry to explain away the obvious plagiarism. ("Diabolical Mimicry" is the idea that the Devil, capable of seeing the future, invented simulacra gods which pre-emptively paralled Jesus in order to deny Jesus his obvious originality: a doctrine of chronic apologetic bunkum which remains the Church's only defense on this subject).

I mentioned Attis as one of these prefigurers of Jesus: a solar deity who was nailed to a cross after his death.

Listen to what you just said, Einstein!!! It's just another example of your inability to read and digest simple words. Attis was NOT nailed to a tree, number one (an effigy of him was); and, number two, Attis DIED BY CHOPPING OFF HIS OWN NUTS!!! Jesus died BY CRUCIFIXION!! What part of that don't you understand?

In response, you posted page after page of cut and paste... these encyclopedia excerpts explained in graphic detail how the Attians (followers of Attis):

What I did was CLEARLY show that the claims you were making about Attis were totally and completely.....FALSE, by using actual references (something that seems to put you on your face, time and time again), so that people can read the account for themselves.


It's amazing how much buffoonery you can squeeze in such few sentences. Where do I start?

-celebrate Attis' suicide at Easter time

One, Jesus didn't kill Himself; Two, Christians don't celebrate His death on what's known as Easter; they celebrate HIS RESURRECTION (i.e. something that Attis did NOT HAVE, genius!!).

-walk a sacred procession to a sacred grove of trees (Gethsemane?)

NO, not even close. There's not hing sacred about the Garden of Gesthsemane, or any trees therein. Once again, in sheer inaccurate bliss, you have made humorously stupid, supremely off-the-mark statements, in your attempt to paint Christ as a clone of Attis.

-cut don a sacred tree so that an Attian priest would carry it on his back through the streets

What does this have to do with the account of Jesus.....ABSOLUTELY NOTHING (as usual).

-the tree would be set up in their temple

-a statue of the dead Attis would be either tied to the tree or nailed to it

How and why did Attis die again? OH THAT'S RIGHT!!! SELF-CASTRATION out of lust for his own mama!! What's done with his dead, testicle-deprived corpse (in effigy or actuality) means exactly diddly squat!!!

-the Attians called this "The Day of Mourning"

Generally, when someone dies, genius, you have a day of mourning. This is, even by previous Luke standards, downright pitiful.

-lock themselves in the temple and mourn for three days

The disciples of Jesus did no such thing.......boy, this is just sad!!!

-celebrate "The Day of Joy" on the spring equinox/Easter

Of course, it has yet to dawn on you that there's a HUGE difference between the Roman Catholic Church ASSIGNING a celebration of Jesus' resurrection during that time and Scripture actually claiming that the Resurrection actually occuring during that time.

-restart all their yearly celebrations as if Attis had returned to life

NEWS FLASH!!! Attis DID NOT return to life; Jesus did......GAME OVER!!!

...yet you posted all of this while arguing that Attis in no way coincided or overlapped the "wholely original" Jesus story.

Someone please give this guy a clue. He can't comprehend the simplest of sentences, it seems.

Did Attis die via crucifixion? NO!!

Did Attis die for the salvation of mankind? NO!!

Was Attis born of a virgin (i.e. no male god, getting his freak on the sneak)? NO!!

Did Attis rise from the dead? NO!!

And that's just the short list!!!!

I can't make the blind see, nor those who refuse to open their eyes.

That would explain why your Ray Charles/Stevie Wonder impressions are dead on the money!!!



You've taken a bunch of downright silly statements, some of which aren't even accurate as it relates to Attis (which I've shown repeatedly), and you try to claim that Jesus was copied from this.

It is to laugh.

Congratulations McWay, you have won yet another argument by stubbornly refusing to read or comprehend neither the argments of others nor the bullshit you yourself regurgitate to justify your own delusions.

Ignorance wins out.


The Luke

The only ignorance here comes from your silliness-fueled fingers. Not only have I read and comprehended your arguments, Boy genius, I went one step further. I actually produced the accounts of Attis and showed that your claims about him were DEAD WRONG!!! It's called references, things you refuse to produce, because once items appear, they exposed your statements for the mindless gibberish that it is.

You can't get your facts straight about Attis, or any of the other figures from which you, in true rock-skulled fashion, keep claiming Jesus was crafted. And, I've exposed that more times than I care to count.

[big L dawg]

[Government_Controlled]

For my Christians friends. Can you see this begining to occur? It's not complete, however, it has started!





Luke 21:25-31

"(25) And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars; and upon the earth [there will be] distress (trouble and anguish) of nations in bewilderment and perplexity [without resources, left wanting, embarrassed, in doubt, not knowing which way to turn] at the roaring (the echo) of the tossing of the sea, (26) Men swooning away or expiring with fear and dread and apprehension and expectation of the things that are coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken and caused to totter. (27) And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with great (transcendent and overwhelming) power and [all His kingly] glory (majesty and splendor). (28) Now when these things begin to occur, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption (deliverance) is drawing near.

(29) And He told them a parable: Look at the fig tree and all the trees; (30) When they put forth their buds and come out in leaf, you see for yourselves and perceive and know that summer is already near. (31) Even so, when you see these things taking place, understand and know that the kingdom of God is at hand."






GC/DEA_AGENT

[Government_Controlled]

These are in complete fullfulment! Peace!




2 Timothy 3:1-5


(1) BUT UNDERSTAND this, that in the last days will come (set in) perilous times of great stress and trouble [hard to deal with and hard to bear]. (2) For people will be lovers of self and [utterly] self-centered, lovers of money and aroused by an inordinate [greedy] desire for wealth, proud and arrogant and contemptuous boasters. They will be abusive (blasphemous, scoffing), disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy and profane. (3) [They will be] without natural [human] affection (callous and inhuman), relentless (admitting of no truce or appeasement); [they will be] slanderers (false accusers, troublemakers), intemperate and loose in morals and conduct, uncontrolled and fierce, haters of good. (4)[They will be] treacherous [betrayers], rash, [and] inflated with self-conceit. [They will be] lovers of sensual pleasures and vain amusements more than and rather than lovers of God. (5) For [although] they hold a form of piety (true religion), they deny and reject and are strangers to the power of it [their conduct belies the genuineness of their profession]. Avoid [all] such people [turn away from them].





GC/DEA_AGENT

[Government_Controlled]

Some Bible study would help. At least then, you can have some interesting conversation. Otherwise, you get tomfoolery, Luke-style, void of accuracy and saturated with silliness.

All we can do my friend is try. Remember the Scribes ,Pharisees ,Sadducees, etc.? Also there are a couple of Scriptures I will PM you with, if you give me the go!. Peace!


BTW, you, Loco, BeachBum and some others are doing a fine job in "defending the faith". When I PM those scripts. am sure you will see why this is going nowhere with these few. Keep up the fine work, my friend!




GC/DEA_AGENT

[MCWAY]

All we can do my friend is try. Remember the Scribes ,Pharisees ,Sadducees, etc.? Also there are a couple of Scriptures I will PM you with, if you give me the go!. Peace!


BTW, you, Loco, BeachBum and some others are doing a fine job in "defending the faith". When I PM those scripts. am sure you will see why this is going nowhere with these few. Keep up the fine work, my friend!




GC/DEA_AGENT

Thank you, GC!!! PM away, brother!!!

[The Luke]

Why do you continue to hound me McWay?


You've already won me over, I now understand how:

-Attis' body being nailed to a tree at Easter time, symbolising the transfixing of the "dying" setting sun upon the Southern Cross constellation

-Orpheus-Bacchus being lashed to a tree (sometimes an anchor) at Easter time, symbolising the transfixing of the "dying" setting sun upon the Southern Cross constellation

-The dying Hercules lying arms outstretched upon a felled tree, symbolising the transfixing of the "dying" setting sun upon the Southern Cross constellation


...and the other crucified Mystery Religion solar deities similarly crucified in a symbolic representation of the sun "dying" upon the Southern Cross constellation:

-the god Chrishna/Krishna of India, crucified circa 1200 B.C.

-the god Sakia (Hindu), crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god Thammuz/Tammuz of Syria, crucified circa 1160 B.C.

-the god Wittoba of the Telinogonesic, crucified circa 552 B.C.

-the god Iao of Nepal (sometimes conflated with Buddha), crucified circa 622 B.C.

-the god Hesus (not to be confused with his namesake Jesus) of the Celtic Druids, crucified circa 834 B.C.

-the god Quexalcote/Quetzylcoatl of Mexico, crucified circa 587 B.C.

-the god Quirinus of Rome (possibly Etruscan in origin), crucified circa 506 B.C.

-the god/titan (Aeschylus) Promotheus, crucified circa 547 B.C.

-the god Thulis of Egypt, crucified circa 1700 B.C.

-the god Indra of Tibet/Bhutan, crucified circa 725 B.C.

-the god Alcestos of Euripides, crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god Crite/Krite of the Chaldeans, crucified circa 1200 B.C.

-the god Bali of Orissa, crucified circa 725 B.C.

-the god Mithra/Mithras of Persia, crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god/demigod Ixion, crucified circa 400 B.C.


...all have nothing at all to do with; and in no way resemble the Jesus story in which your particular choice of Mystery Religion solar deity is nailed to a cross at Easter time (Passover). Because in this instance of a dying/resurrecting godman, and in this instance only, the cross/tree is an actual cross/tree and does not symbolise the Southern Cross constellation.

I now understand that Jesus was an actual historical person, whose life just happened to conform to the long established conceits of the popular Middle Eastern solar deity Mystery Religion traditions. He was also magic.


Before I understood this important distinction, I mistakenly interpreted these abundant coincidences as plain old plagiarism. So there is no need to labour the point, I've seen the error of my ways.



The Luke

[MCWAY]

Why do you continue to hound me McWay?


You've already won me over, I now understand how:

-Attis' body being nailed to a tree at Easter time, symbolising the transfixing of the "dying" setting sun upon the Southern Cross constellation

What part of "Attis died by cutting his own nuts off?" fails to register in that head of yours?

-Orpheus-Bacchus being lashed to a tree (sometimes an anchor) at Easter time, symbolising the transfixing of the "dying" setting sun upon the Southern Cross constellation

-The dying Hercules lying arms outstretched upon a felled tree, symbolising the transfixing of the "dying" setting sun upon the Southern Cross constellation


...and the other crucified Mystery Religion solar deities similarly crucified in a symbolic representation of the sun "dying" upon the Southern Cross constellation:

Now how many of these, upon further research will pan out to be as DEAD WRONG as your silly take on Attis?

-the god Chrishna/Krishna of India, crucified circa 1200 B.C.

See Below!!

-the god Sakia (Hindu), crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god Thammuz/Tammuz of Syria, crucified circa 1160 B.C.

Nope!!! He gets porked to death, LITERALLY!!! And, he doesn't rise from the dead, either. See Below!!

-the god Wittoba of the Telinogonesic, crucified circa 552 B.C.

-the god Iao of Nepal (sometimes conflated with Buddha), crucified circa 622 B.C.

-the god Hesus (not to be confused with his namesake Jesus) of the Celtic Druids, crucified circa 834 B.C.

-the god Quexalcote/Quetzylcoatl of Mexico, crucified circa 587 B.C.

-the god Quirinus of Rome (possibly Etruscan in origin), crucified circa 506 B.C.

-the god/titan (Aeschylus) Promotheus, crucified circa 547 B.C.

-the god Thulis of Egypt, crucified circa 1700 B.C.

-the god Indra of Tibet/Bhutan, crucified circa 725 B.C.

-the god Alcestos of Euripides, crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god Crite/Krite of the Chaldeans, crucified circa 1200 B.C.

-the god Bali of Orissa, crucified circa 725 B.C.

-the god Mithra/Mithras of Persia, crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god/demigod Ixion, crucified circa 400 B.C.


...all have nothing at all to do with; and in no way resemble the Jesus story in which your particular choice of Mystery Religion solar deity is nailed to a cross at Easter time (Passover). Because in this instance of a dying/resurrecting godman, and in this instance only, the cross/tree is an actual cross/tree and does not symbolise the Southern Cross constellation.

One, Jesus isn't a solar deity. Two, your dying-resurrecting godman flap continues to be pitifully off the mart, largely because (among other reasons) the deities you list DO NOT RISE FROM THE DEAD.

I now understand that Jesus was an actual historical person, whose life just happened to conform to the long established conceits of the popular Middle Eastern solar deity Mystery Religion traditions. He was also magic.


Before I understood this important distinction, I mistakenly interpreted these abundant coincidences as plain old plagiarism. So there is no need to labour the point, I've seen the error of my ways.



The Luke

I don't know what's worse, your pretended attempts at this or your weak tries at sarcasm!!!

Rather than see the error of your ways, you've merely posted more gibberish while hiding your sources, which in this case appears to be from the Jews for Allah site, "Borrowed Crucifixion" section.

Of course, that listing has absolutely NO references or data to support its claims. And a little research will cripple those takes, as well. Rather than go through the remaining figures (some of which I've already covered), I will address this mess from a more general perspective.


From Dr. Edwin Yamauchi's, "Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History":


Easter as Myth

A. Dying and Rising Fertility Gods
John H. Randall, emeritus professor of philosophy at Columbia University, has asserted: "Christianity, at the hands of Paul, became a mystical system of redemption, much like the cult of Isis, and the other sacramental or mystery religions of the day" (Hellenistic Ways of Deliverance and the Making of the Christian Synthesis, 1970, p. 154). Hugh Schonfield in Those Incredible Christians (1968, p. xii) has declared: "The revelations of Frazer in The Golden Bough had not got through to the masses.... Christians remained related under the skin to the devotees of Adonis and Osiris, Dionysus and Mithras."

The theory that there was a widespread worship of a dying and rising fertility god-Tammuz in Mesopotamia, Adonis in Syria, Attis in Asia Minor, and Osiris in Egypt-was propounded by Sir James Frazer, who gathered a mass of parallels in part IV of his monumental work The Golden Bough ( 1906, reprinted in 1961). This view has been adopted by many who little realize its fragile foundations. The explanation of the Christian Resurrection by such a comparative-religions approach has even been reflected in official Soviet propaganda (cf. Paul de Surgy, editor, The Resurrection and Modern Biblical Thought, 1966, pp. 1, 131).

In the 1930s three influential French scholars, M. Goguel, C. Guignebert, and A. Loisy, interpreted Christianity as a syncretistic religion formed under the influence of Hellenistic mystery religions. According to A. Loisy ("The Christian Mystery," Hibbert Journal, X [1911-12], 51), Christ was "a saviour-god, after the manner of an Osiris, an Attis, a Mithra.... Like Adonis, Osiris, and Attis he had died a violent death, and like them he had returned to life...."

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/yama.html

Skeptics sometimes cite Kersey Graves in Sixteen Crucified Saviors or Godfrey Higgins' Anacalypsis (which Graves drew from) in asserting that Krishna was a crucified deity. No such event occurred in the Gita or in any recognized Hindu scripture. Given the pronounced syncretic tendency of Hinduism, it is safe to assume that any odd tales of Krishna's being crucified arose only after the existence of Christian proselytism, in imitation of the Christian narrative. It is neither authentic to Hinduism nor is Hinduism the source of that portion of the Christian narrative. The same may be said for most of the purported nativity stories. In my opinion, both Higgins and Graves are highly unreliable sources and should be ignored.

Though the quote above comes from a Skeptic, many of that guild have not heard the news. One who has not says, "There is a tradition, though not to be found in the Hindoo scriptures, that Krishna, like Christ, was crucified...Indeed, there are found in India images of crucified gods, one of whom apparently is Krishna, important information not to be encountered in mainstream resources such as today's encyclopedias." For good reason. There is no evidence that these images were constructed prior to Christian influence in India...if these images exist at all.

http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/krishna02.html

This is regarding the whole Tammuz deal:

The name of a Phoenician deity, the Adonis of the Greeks. He was originally a Sumerian or Babylonian sun-god, called Dumuzu, the husband of Ishtar, who corresponds to Aphrodite of the Greeks. The worship of these deities was introduced into Syria in very early times under the designation of Tammuz and Astarte, and appears among the Greeks in the myth of Adonis and Aphrodite, who are identified with Osiris and Isis of the Egyptian pantheon, showing how widespread the cult became. The Babylonian myth represents Dumuzu, or Tammuz, as a beautiful shepherd slain by a wild boar, the symbol of winter. Ishtar long mourned for him and descended into the underworld to deliver him from the embrace of death (Frazer, Adonis, Attis and Osiris). This mourning for Tammuz was celebrated in Babylonia by women on the 2nd day of the 4th month, which thus acquired the name of Tammuz (see CALENDAR). This custom of weeping for Tammuz is referred to in the Bible in the only passage where the name occurs (Ezek 8:14). The chief seat of the cult in Syria was Gebal (modern Gebail, Greek Bublos) in Phoenicia, to the South of which the river Adonis (Nahr Ibrahim) has its mouth, and its source is the magnificent fountain of Apheca (modern `Afqa), where was the celebrated temple of Venus or Aphrodite, the ruins of which still exist. The women of Gebal used to repair to this temple in midsummer to celebrate the death of Adonis or Tammuz, and there arose in connection with this celebration those licentious rites which rendered the cult so infamous that it was suppressed by Constantine the Great.

http://net.bible.org/dictionary.php?word=TAMMUZ

And as for Tammuz' alleged resurrection....from Dr. Edwin Yamauchi's "Easter: Myth, Hallucination, or History?"


B. Reexamination of the Evidences

A reexamination of the sources used to support the theory of a mythical origin of Christ's resurrection reveals that the evidences are far from satisfactory and that the parallels are too superficial.


In the case of the Mesopotamian Tammuz (Sumerian Dumuzi), his alleged resurrection by the goddess Inanna-Ishtar had been assumed even though the end of both the Sumerian and the Akkadian texts of the myth of "The Descent of Inanna (Ishtar)" had not been preserved. Professor S. N. Kramer in 1960 published a new poem, "The Death of Dumuzi," that proves conclusively that instead of rescuing Dumuzi from the Underworld, Inanna sent him there as her substitute (cf. my article, "Tammuz and the Bible," Journal of Biblical Literature, LXXXIV [1965], 283-90). A line in a fragmentary and obscure text is the only positive evidence that after being sent to the Underworld Dumuzi may have had his sister take his place for half the year (cf. S. N. Kramer, Bulletin of the American Schools of Oriental Research, No. 183 [1966], 31).

[MCWAY]

What this fellow can't quite seem to comprehend is that aa "religion" is defined based on WHAT IS WORSHIPPED, not what isn't.

As I've stated on other occasions, for all practical purposes, atheism is man worshipping.....HIMSELF!!! Therefore, man's "logic and reason" has become effectively his deity or god. It's a mere substitution of a natural deity for a supernatural one.

Christians are deemed such, based on whom they DO worhsip, not on whom they DON'T worship. Same goes for Muslims and Allah, Buddhists and Buddha (or to whomever Buddha answers), etc.

[The Luke]

I dont know what you're trying to prove here....?



I agree with you that the minutiae of the crucifictions of ALL of the other gods I listed differed from the Jesus myth crucifiction in some tiny detail.

That's why Jesus is wholely orignal and new.... for example, Attis castrated himself, and his dead body was nailed to a tree symbolising the Southern Cross constellation at Easter time (when the sun "overcomes" the night). In tree Jesus was nailed to has no symbolic significance... even if early Christian Church Fathers admitted that it did.

Similarly, just because the pagan Mystery Religion solar deity Hesus of the Druids:
-bears the same name as Jesus
-was the son of "God the Father"
-was a god made human flesh
-was represented as an innocent lamb
-was known as the "Lamb of God"
-was crucified between a lamb (representing his innocence) and an elephant representing the magnitude of the worlds sins (which he wiped clean by taking them upon himself as a substitutional sacrifice)

...none of that has anything in common with Jesus.


After all, its not as if the "H" in Hesus and the "J" in Jesus were interchangeable letters at the time, is it?


In conclusion, the Mystery Religion dying/resurrecting godman solar deity Jesus is completely separate from the earlier versions of the Mystery Religion dying/resurecting odman solar deities from which he is plagiarised.
Jesus is completely original, because as a Jew he wore a yamika.


In short, Jesus is different because he has a funny hat.

That, and he's magic.



The Luke

[Necrosis]

What this fellow can't quite seem to comprehend is that aa "religion" is defined based on WHAT IS WORSHIPPED, not what isn't.

As I've stated on other occasions, for all practical purposes, atheism is man worshipping.....HIMSELF!!! Therefore, man's "logic and reason" has become effectively his deity or god. It's a mere substitution of a natural deity for a supernatural one.

Christians are deemed such, based on whom they DO worhsip, not on whom they DON'T worship. Same goes for Muslims and Allah, Buddhists and Buddha (or to whomever Buddha answers), etc.

are you serious? i mean you haven't even made an argument how atheism the opposite of theism is man worshipping himself. You just state it like fact, a clearly erroneous one.

[Government_Controlled]

So, if you have points that can be made to prove the Bible's credibility regarding authorship, lets see it.

• In (Genesis 2:7) it says that Adam was made from the ground (earth). It's known that the human body is made up of 41 chemical elements. These basic elements---carbon, iron, oxygen, and others---are all present in the "dust" of the earth. Therefore, as (Genesis) states, humans truly are formed "out of the dust from the ground". This was written around 4,500 years ago (give or take) by Moses. How is it possible that Moses new of this scientific info regarding a humans composition, when in that day this info was not known?

• Believe it or not, some people are surprised to learn that Adam and Eve are mentioned repeatedly throughout the Bible. What insight do these references shed on the historicity of the Genesis account? Consider, for example, the Jewish ancestral lists recorded in the Bible book of (1 Chronicles 1-9) and in the Gospel of (Luke chapter 3). These remarkably detailed genealogical recrods span 48 and 75 generations respectively. Luke traces the genealogy of Jesus Christ, while (Chronicles) records the royal and priestly ancestral lines for the nation of Israel. Both lists include the names of such well-known figures as Solomon, David, Jacob, Isaac, Abraham, Noah, and finally Adam. All the names in the two lists represent real people, and Adam was the original real person on each list. The Greek scriptures confirms the historicity of the account given in the early chapters of (Genesis).

• Regarding the shape of earth ,the Bible reports that the planet was ROUND. (Isaiah 40:22) - "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,and its people are like gasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy,and spreads them out like a tent to live in". It was not until over 200 years after this Bible text had been written that a school of Greek philosophers reasoned that the earth likely was spherical, and in about another 300 years a Greek astronomer calculated the approximate radius of the earth. But the idea of a spherical earth was not the general view even then. Only in the 20th century has it been possible for humans to observe the shape of the earth. How did the Bible know this?

• (Lev. 11:6) - "The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you." Critics attacked this for quite some time, yet the rabbit's cud chewing was finally observed by William Cowper (Englishmen) in the 18th century. The unusual way in which it is done was described in 1940 in Proceedings of the Zoological Society of London, Vol. 110, Series A, pp. 159-163. (Leviticus) was written by Moses. Again, how would Moses know this info? He wrote this around 1512 B.C. If you think Moses got fortunate again or observed this, then why did he give God the credit? Did Moses lie?

• The internal harmony is staggering/significant, to say the least. This is especially so in view of the fact that the books of the Bible were written by 40 men as different as night and day such as king, prophet, herdsman, tax collector, and physician. They did the writing over a period of 1,610 years; so there was no opportunity for collusion. Yet their writings agree, even in the smallest detail. Isn't this a little to coincidental?

• The fulfillment of prophecies is nothing short of extraordinary!
  
  (Isa. 44:24, 27, 28; 45:1-4) - (24) "This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, who has made all things,who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself, (27) who says to the watery deep, 'Be dry, and I will dry up your streams,' (28) who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd and will accomplish all that I please; he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt," and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid." '
  
  (1) "This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of to subdue nations before him and to strip kings of their armor, to open doors before him so that gates will not be shut: (2) I will go before you and will level the mountains ; I will break down gates of bronze and cut through bars of iron. (3) I will give you the treasures of darkness, riches stored in secret places, so that you may know that I am the LORD,the God of Israel, who summons you by name. (4) For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen, I summon you by name and bestow on you a title of honor, though you do not acknowledge me".    (The book of (Isaiah) was finished around  732 B.C.)
  
  * Fulfillment: It's known that Cyrus had not been born when this prophecy was written. The Jews were exiled to Babylon in 617-607 B.C., the temple and  Jerusalem  were not destroyed until 607 B.C. The prophecy was fulfilled in detail starting in 539 B.C. The river gates of Babylon were carelessly left open during feasting in the city allowing Cyrus to divert the waters of the Euphrates River into a fake lake,  thereby Babylon was overtaken by the Medes and Persians under Cyrus. So then, Cyrus liberated the Jewish exiles and sent them back to Jerusalem with instructions to rebuild the  God of Abraham's temple there. - The Encyclopedia Americana (1956), Vol. III, p. 9; Light From the Ancient Past (Princeton, 1959), Jack Finegan, pp. 227-229.
  
  
  
  (Luke 19:41-44; 21:20,21) - (41) "Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it, (42) saying, 'If you had known, even you, especially in this your day, the things that make for your peace! But now they are hidden from your eyes. (43) For days will come upon you when your enemies will build an embankment around you, surround you and close you in on every side, (44) and level you, and your children within you, to the ground; and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not know the time of your visitation.
  
  (20) But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. (21) Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her'". (Jesus stated this Prophecy in 33 A.D.)
  
  * Fulfillment: In 66 A.D., Jerusalem rebelled against Rome. Cestius Gallus (Roman army officer) attacked the city. However, Gallus without hesitation stopped the attack. As Josephus stated - "suddenly called off his men, abandoned hope though he had suffered no reverse, and flying in the face of all reason retired from the City". (Josephus, the Jewish War, Penguin Classics, 1969, p. 167)
  
  This gave the Christians time to leave the city, which they did, moving to Pella, beyond the Jordan. (Eusebius Pamphilus in his Ecclesiastical History, which was translated by C. F. Cruse, London, 1894, p. 75).
  
  General Titus took the city around Passover time in 70 A.D. He did this by installing fence 4.5 miles long around the city in three days, thereby after five months Jerusalem was conquered. "Jerusalem itself was systematically destroyed and the Temple left in ruins. Archaeological work shows us today just how effective was the destruction of Jewish buildings all over the land". (The Bible and Archaeology [Grand Rapids, Mich.; 1962], J. A. Thompson, p. 299).
  
  
  
  Jer. 49:17, 18 - “‘Edom must become an object of astonishment. Everyone passing along by her will stare in astonishment and whistle on account of all her plagues. Just as in the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah and her neighbor towns,’ the God of Israel has said, ‘no man will dwell there.’” (Completed by 580 B.C.)
  
  * Fulfillment: "They [the Edomites] were driven from Palestine in the 2nd century B.C. by Judas Maccabaeus, and in 109 B.C. John Hyrcanus, Maccabaen leader, extended the kingdom of Judah to include the w. part of Edomitic lands. In the 1st century B.C. Roman expansion swept away the last vestige of Edomitic independence . . . After the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 A.D. . . . the name Idumae [Edom] disappeared from history." (The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, 1952, Vol. 11, p. 4114) This realization extends down to our day. In no way can it be argued that this prophecy was written after the events had taken place.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

• How about the Bible's knowledge of mountains? Here is a quote on geology from a textbook - “From Pre-Cambrian times down to the present, the perpetual process of building and destroying mountains has continued. . . . Not only have mountains originated from the bottom of vanished seas, but they have often been submerged long after their formation, and then re-elevated." This is what the Bible says - (6) "You [God] covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters were standing above the mountains. (Eight) The mountains rose; the valleys sank down to the place which You [God] established for them." (Psalms 104:6,8)

• The Bible speaks about the earth's water cycle. (Ecclesiates 1:7) - "All the rivers run into the sea; yet the sea is not full; unto the place from whence the rivers come, thither they return again". (This was written before 1000 B.C.)! Did the Bible get fortunate again?

• What about the laws that govern the universe? Take a look see at what (Jeremiah 33:25) has to say -(24) "Haven't you noticed what these people are saying? They say, 'The Lord once chose the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah. But now he has turned his back on them.' So they hate my people. They do not think of them as a nation anymore. (25) I say, 'What if I had not made my covenant with day and night? What if I had not established the laws of heaven and earth?  Again, did the Bible get fortunate? (This was written before 580 B.C.)

• How about the earth being suspended in space! (Job 26:7) - "He stretcheth out the north over empty space, And hangeth the earth upon nothing". (Written about 1613 B.C.) These men never took credit for this info!

• According to the book of (Daniel), Babylon's last leader was named Belshazzar this is of course before it (Babylon) fell to the Persians. (Daniel 5:1-30) Critics claimed the Bible was wrong about the existence of Belshazzar, since only the Bible mentioned him. However in the 19th century, several cuneiform were discovered in some ruins in southern Iraq. In these (cuneiform) writting's a prayer for the health of the oldest son of Nabonidus, king of Babylon. Belshazzar was his name.
  
  So there was a Belshazzar! But was he a king, when Babylon fell? Most documents subsequently found referred to him as the son of the king, the crown prince. But a cuneiform document described as the “Verse Account of Nabonidus” shed more light on Belshazzar’s true position. It stated - “He (Nabonidus) entrusted the ‘Camp’ to his oldest (son), the firstborn, the troops everywhere in the country he ordered under his (command). He let (everything) go, he entrusted the kingship to him.” So Belshazzar was entrusted with the kingship. This relationship between Belshazzar and his father, Nabonidus, explains why Belshazzar, during that final banquet in Babylon, offered to make Daniel the third ruler in the kingdom. (Daniel 5:16) Since Nabonidus was the first ruler, Belshazzar himself was only the second ruler of Babylon.

• The Bible's account regarding the ORGIN OF THE UNIVERSE conforms to astronomical evidence! (Gen. 1:1) “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".  Robert Jastrow stated -  “Now we see how the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essential elements in the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same: the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time, in a flash of light and energy.” - God and the Astronomers (New York, 1978), p. 14.

GC/DEA_AGENT

[Government_Controlled]

I agree with you that the minutiae of the crucifictions of ALL of the other gods I listed differed from the Jesus myth crucifiction in some tiny detail.

Attis castrated himself, and his dead body was nailed to a tree symbolising the Southern Cross constellation at Easter time (when the sun "overcomes" the night). In tree Jesus was nailed to has no symbolic significance... even if early Christian Church Fathers admitted that it did.

Similarly, just because the pagan Mystery Religion solar deity Hesus of the Druids:

-bears the same name as Jesus
-was the son of "God the Father"
-was a god made human flesh
-was represented as an innocent lamb
-was known as the "Lamb of God"
-was crucified between a lamb (representing his innocence) and an elephant representing the magnitude of the worlds sins (which he wiped clean by taking them upon himself as a substitutional sacrifice)



In conclusion, the Mystery Religion dying/resurrecting godman solar deity Jesus is completely separate from the earlier versions of the Mystery Religion dying/resurecting odman solar deities from which he is plagiarised.



The Luke

Luke, do you know if those writtings/teachings occurred before or after the prophecies regarding the Messiah? I'm curious! If so do you have the dates?




GC/DEA_AGENT

[MCWAY]

I dont know what you're trying to prove here....?



I agree with you that the minutiae of the crucifictions of ALL of the other gods I listed differed from the Jesus myth crucifiction in some tiny detail.

The details, as it were, are anything but tiny, which is why your claims continue to be exposed for the fallacies that they are.

That's why Jesus is wholely orignal and new.... for example, Attis castrated himself, and his dead body was nailed to a tree symbolising the Southern Cross constellation at Easter time (when the sun "overcomes" the night). In tree Jesus was nailed to has no symbolic significance... even if early Christian Church Fathers admitted that it did.

Jesus' crucifixion has absolutely NOTHING to do with a Southern Cross constellation, any more than does the crucifixion of the men beside him. That was a common method by which Romans executed criminals. I supposed everyone who has ever been crucified is now representative of some silly astrological stuff.  .

Similarly, just because the pagan Mystery Religion solar deity Hesus of the Druids:
-bears the same name as Jesus
-was the son of "God the Father"
-was a god made human flesh
-was represented as an innocent lamb
-was known as the "Lamb of God"
-was crucified between a lamb (representing his innocence) and an elephant representing the magnitude of the worlds sins (which he wiped clean by taking them upon himself as a substitutional sacrifice)

...none of that has anything in common with Jesus.

And, as is often the case, one quick look at this deity will show that he has little in common with Jesus Christ, just like the rest of them.


After all, its not as if the "H" in Hesus and the "J" in Jesus were interchangeable letters at the time, is it?

In conclusion, the Mystery Religion dying/resurrecting godman solar deity Jesus is completely separate from the earlier versions of the Mystery Religion dying/resurecting odman solar deities from which he is plagiarised.
Jesus is completely original, because as a Jew he wore a yamika.


In short, Jesus is different because he has a funny hat.

That, and he's magic.



The Luke

DEAD WRONG and woefully silly as usual, Luke. One more time, your screwball dying-resurrecting godman claims simply don't fly, for the simplest of reasons, which don't seem to register in that skull of yours. Those being:


1) They aren't born of virgins; it's usually Zeus or some other guy getting his supernatural freak on (usually on the down-low).

2) They don't die via crucifixion.

3) They don't die for the sins of mankind.

4) Most of the figures you mention DO NOT RISE FROM THE DEAD.

And, that's just the short list.

I've listed the details of those figures, more times than I care to count. They don't match Jesus in the slightest, despite your rather ridiculous claims to the contrary (and I have the references to prove it). So, once again, your blather has been shown for the rank-and-file skeptic foolishness that it is.

But, what else is new?

[MCWAY]

are you serious? i mean you haven't even made an argument how atheism the opposite of theism is man worshipping himself. You just state it like fact, a clearly erroneous one.

Apparently, you need some Visine.

Atheists believe there is no God and thus no being higher than man. Therefore, whose "logic and reason" is it that they cherish so much, in regards to their philosophies of life?

Do you value "logic and reason" from elephants, gnus, moose, elk, butterflies, etc? OF COURSE NOT!! You value such from.......MAN!!!

It's quite simple. Either you believe that a higher being created life on this Earth or you don't. If the latter is true, you are an atheist and regard NO OTHER authority other than your own (as in that of man, versus that of God).

[Government_Controlled]

are you serious? i mean you haven't even made an argument how atheism the opposite of theism is man worshipping himself. You just state it like fact, a clearly erroneous one.

Apparently, you need some Visine.

Atheists believe there is no God and thus no being higher than man. Therefore, whose "logic and reason" is it that they cherish so much, in regards to their philosophies of life?

Do you value "logic and reason" from elephants, gnus, moose, elk, butterflies, etc? OF COURSE NOT!! You value such from.......MAN!!!

It's quite simple. Either you believe that a higher being created life on this Earth or you don't. If the latter is true, you are an atheist and regard NO OTHER authority other than your own (as in that of man, versus that of God).

Also,

"Historically, practical atheism has been associated with moral failure, willful ignorance and impiety. Those considered practical atheists were said to behave as though God, ethics and social responsibility did not exist; they abandoned duty and embraced HEDONISM (the doctrine that the pursuit of pleasure is the most important thing in life). According to the French Catholic philosopher Étienne Borne, 'Practical atheism is not the denial of the existence of God, but complete godlessness of action; it is a moral evil, implying not the denial of the absolute validity of the moral law but simply rebellion against that law.'

The view that children are born atheist is relatively recent. Prior to the 18th century, the existence of God was so universally accepted in the western world that even the possibility of true atheism was questioned. This is called theistic innatism—the notion that all people believe in God from birth; within this view was the connotation that atheists are simply in denial. It is also asserted that atheists are quick to believe in God in times of crisis—that atheists make deathbed conversions, or that 'there are no atheists in foxholes'.


Practical atheism can take various forms:

• Absence of religious motivation—belief in gods does not motivate moral action, religious action, or any other form of action;

• Active exclusion of the problem of gods and religion from intellectual pursuit and practical action;

• Indifference—the absence of any interest in the problems of gods and religion; or

• Ignorance—lacking any idea of gods".
  

http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Athieism





GC/DEA_AGENT

[The Luke]

Also,

...self-serving copy and paste; blah; blah; blah.

GC/DEA_AGENT

...there is a well established statistical correlation between atheism and morally correct behaviour.

There is no denying this, as the sheer weight of evidence is overwhelming... and NOT open to any other interpretation.


The more atheists in a society, the less crime. The more fundamentalist believers; the more crime and antisocial behaviour. This is reality, don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.


If authorship of the Bible can be ascribed to any particular supernatural entity... it would be Satan.



The Luke

[big L dawg]

[Government_Controlled]

-the god Chrishna/Krishna of India, crucified circa 1200 B.C.

-the god Sakia (Hindu), crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god Thammuz/Tammuz of Syria, crucified circa 1160 B.C.

-the god Wittoba of the Telinogonesic, crucified circa 552 B.C.

-the god Iao of Nepal (sometimes conflated with Buddha), crucified circa 622 B.C.

-the god Hesus (not to be confused with his namesake Jesus) of the Celtic Druids, crucified circa 834 B.C.

-the god Quexalcote/Quetzylcoatl of Mexico, crucified circa 587 B.C.

-the god Quirinus of Rome (possibly Etruscan in origin), crucified circa 506 B.C.

-the god/titan (Aeschylus) Promotheus, crucified circa 547 B.C.

-the god Thulis of Egypt, crucified circa 1700 B.C.

-the god Indra of Tibet/Bhutan, crucified circa 725 B.C.

-the god Alcestos of Euripides, crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god Crite/Krite of the Chaldeans, crucified circa 1200 B.C.

-the god Bali of Orissa, crucified circa 725 B.C.

-the god Mithra/Mithras of Persia, crucified circa 600 B.C.

-the god/demigod Ixion, crucified circa 400 B.C.

Luke, Jesus was mentioned in Genesis as relating to the Messiah, long before any of these so called 'gods' came into play. Where are you getting the idea that the teachings of Jesus are the works of plagiarism? If anything, it's the other way around. The Bible is the originator of Jesus the Messiah.

Also, as it's been pointed out these gods you have mentioned don't come close to Jesus' personality. Sure there are similarities to certain events that took place, however, that is a far cry from those events proving that Jesus was plagiarized from these so called gods.








GC/DEA_AGENT

[Government_Controlled]

...there is a well established statistical correlation between atheism and morally correct behaviour.

There is no denying this, as the sheer weight of evidence is overwhelming... and NOT open to any other interpretation.


The more atheists in a society, the less crime. The more fundamentalist believers; the more crime and antisocial behaviour. This is reality, don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise.


If authorship of the Bible can be ascribed to any particular supernatural entity... it would be Satan.



The Luke

Hey friend, I apologize for offending you. I didn't mean to do that. This wasn't merely just a "copy and paste" episode. With me formerly being a hardcore/hardshell Atheist myself, I was only trying to convey my sentiments/past experience relating to being one myself.

So I cited/quoted a reliable source that would back what I had experienced personally. Again, I'm am sincerely sorry for being to harsh with this post. Peace!





GC/DEA_AGENT

[The Luke]

So I cited/quoted a reliable source that would back what I had experienced personally. Again, I'm am sincerely sorry for being to harsh with this post. Peace!

GC/DEA_AGENT

...no offense taken.

It was the blatant factual inaccuracy of the quote that I took issue with. It is simply a sociological fact that athiests are more moral in their behaviour than theists. Fact.


Check the crime statistics for Norway; Sweden; Finland... Scandinavia is over 80% athiest.

Whereas Afghanistan; Pakistan; Iraq; Darfur.... ?



The Luke

[Government_Controlled]

...no offense taken.

It was the blatant factual inaccuracy of the quote that I took issue with. It is simply a sociological fact that athiests are more moral in their behaviour than theists. Fact.


Check the crime statistics for Norway; Sweden; Finland... Scandinavia is over 80% athiest.

Whereas Afghanistan; Pakistan; Iraq; Darfur.... ?



The Luke

Thanks friend!. I will take u up on that. I should have researched before I posted that erroneous info beforehand. I remember your post in the "Brad Pit" thread ref. those stats. I meant to do it then, but forgot. This is one of those cases of "putting the cart before the horse". 

It's a shame that religions claiming to represent the "God" of the Bible have skewed/brought reproach on "God's" dear name. I attended so called "Christian" schools for a good portion of my required school years, and I can say that, for the most part, the people in these schools were hypocrites (one of the reasons for my Atheist choice at the time).

Anyway, once I studied the Bible for myself, it was obvious those folks were not following it's teachings. So, I can see your point quiet vividly!. Peace!




GC/DEA_AGENT

[The Luke]

Anyway, once I studied the Bible for myself, it was obvious those folks were not following it's teachings. So, I can see your point quiet vividly!. Peace!

GC/DEA_AGENT

...wow! How much of that shit could a rational adult read without concluding it's bullshit?

I agree most Christians are hypocrites, but it's an intellectual hypocrisy... not because they read the bible and "were not following it's teachings".

You don't have to read very far into the Old Testament to find Yahweh endorsing slavery; rape; infanticide; genocide and all sorts of other base, depraved... oh so very human cruelties. Those are God's "teachings".


God's failings are mans failings... as god does not exist outside of the human mind. God is a mirror to the human psyche precisely because he is a product of the human psyche... nothing more.


Yahweh never mentions the immorality of slavery because he was invented by primitive superstitious people who saw no moral failing in the practice of slavery.

Likewise, Jesus never mentions the immorality of slavery because he was invented by only slightly less primitive people who still saw no moral failing in the practice of slavery.

The God of the Old Testament cannot progress with man as he is concreted in words and scripture, the GodS (plural) of the Genesis story have at least had a re-write, but not much else of the Bible has been so lucky. It's long overdue.


It's a simple choice...
Either slavery; rape; infanticide; and genocide were actually morally correct at some time in the recent past... or God used to be an asshole.

No middle ground, pick a side.



The Luke

[Necrosis]

Thanks friend!. I will take u up on that. I should have researched before I posted that erroneous info beforehand. I remember your post in the "Brad Pit" thread ref. those stats. I meant to do it then, but forgot. This is one of those cases of "putting the cart before the horse". 

It's a shame that religions claiming to represent the "God" of the Bible have skewed/brought reproach on "God's" dear name. I attended so called "Christian" schools for a good portion of my required school years, and I can say that, for the most part, the people in these schools were hypocrites (one of the reasons for my Atheist choice at the time).

Anyway, once I studied the Bible for myself, it was obvious those folks were not following it's teachings. So, I can see your point quiet vividly!. Peace!




GC/DEA_AGENT

the bible states that adulterers should be stoned to death? do you think that is a fair punishment?

also, children who misbehave should be stoned, do you agree with this?

hell, an eternal torture is an immoral punishment for a finite act.

[Government_Controlled]

The Bible doesn't teach that Christ was born on that date (Dec. 25th). It's definitely not a Bible teaching.




GC/DEA_AGENT