Author Topic: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"  (Read 20115 times)

MCWAY

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 19263
  • Getbig!
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #150 on: September 25, 2009, 06:49:16 PM »
Hey guys...

Been unexpectedly busy (suddenly had to replace the drive shaft in my 29 year-old shit mobile; thought I could get the universal joint refurbished but the spline was worn out too... whole new piece, and then I had to fit it without a ramp; squeezing it behind a welded catch plate... awkward; awkward; awkward), apologies.


I haven't had a chance to read the new pages, but scanning through I notice the tide has started to turn.

Seeing as it's not just me versus "Team America: World Police" anymore... I'll post more when I get home tomorrow.

It's 2:23 AM here, so I'll have to hit the hay.


The Luke

What did I tell you, folks!!! YET ANOTHER pitiful excuse as to why Luke won't face the music and back the buffoonery that oozes from his posts.


Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6799
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #151 on: September 25, 2009, 07:09:03 PM »
Hey guys...

Been unexpectedly busy (suddenly had to replace the drive shaft in my 29 year-old shit mobile; thought I could get the universal joint refurbished but the spline was worn out too... whole new piece, and then I had to fit it without a ramp; squeezing it behind a welded catch plate... awkward; awkward; awkward), apologies.


I haven't had a chance to read the new pages, but scanning through I notice the tide has started to turn.

Seeing as it's not just me versus "Team America: World Police" anymore... I'll post more when I get home tomorrow.

It's 2:23 AM here, so I'll have to hit the hay.


The Luke


Wrong again



ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

GigantorX

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6371
  • GetBig's A-Team is the Light of Truth!
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #152 on: September 25, 2009, 08:46:01 PM »
You are a fucking moron.  We are talking about a shit hits the fan scenario.  LOL Idiot. 
::)

A "shit hits the fan" scenario where a nation that depends on another nation to buy its goods suddenly cuts off trade or dislocates from the importing nations currency, thus destroying its economy? Thereby destroying its own economy?



tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #153 on: September 25, 2009, 10:10:32 PM »
Hey guys...

Been unexpectedly busy (suddenly had to replace the drive shaft in my 29 year-old shit mobile; thought I could get the universal joint refurbished but the spline was worn out too... whole new piece, and then I had to fit it without a ramp; squeezing it behind a welded catch plate... awkward; awkward; awkward), apologies.


I haven't had a chance to read the new pages, but scanning through I notice the tide has started to turn.

Seeing as it's not just me versus "Team America: World Police" anymore... I'll post more when I get home tomorrow.

It's 2:23 AM here, so I'll have to hit the hay.


The Luke
LOL look forward to it brain child start with WW1 and how we didnt win that.... ;)

Slapper

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4299
  • Vincit qui se vincit
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #154 on: September 26, 2009, 05:48:35 AM »
Wars are never really won or lost.

What we do lose, "waste" comes to mind as a better term, is lots of human lives.

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #155 on: September 26, 2009, 07:56:45 AM »
Wars are never really won or lost.

What we do lose, "waste" comes to mind as a better term, is lots of human lives.

we "win" things as well slapper like the lives saved by going to war...you think hitler would have been lenient on our jews or our blacks etc? LOL dont fool yourself


Slapper

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 4299
  • Vincit qui se vincit
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #156 on: September 26, 2009, 08:01:58 AM »
we "win" things as well slapper like the lives saved by going to war...you think hitler would have been lenient on our jews or our blacks etc? LOL dont fool yourself

Like I said, wars are never won or lost, they are just fought.


headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #157 on: September 26, 2009, 08:14:51 AM »
Thats why the nutjobs love libs....capitulate to cooperate.
L

George Whorewell

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
  • TND
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #158 on: September 26, 2009, 08:20:08 AM »
Slapper I can see you are still losing your personal "war" with homosexuality, genital warts and chronic joblessness.

 

tonymctones

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 26520
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #159 on: September 26, 2009, 08:43:25 AM »
Like I said, wars are never won or lost, they are just fought.


you always lose shit jack ass thats called oppurtunity cost...

if you win a baseball game you technically lost other shit you could have been doing with that time it took to win that doesnt mean you didnt win a baseball game.

 ::)

The Luke

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3017
  • What's that in the bushes?
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #160 on: September 26, 2009, 05:05:53 PM »
Okay, okay...

I've been checking in on this thread every once in a while out of a sense of morbid curiosity... I'm just lugubriously fascinated with the reaction a simple expression of opinion can evoke. It's still surprising to me just how much self-worth patriotic people transfer to the perception of their country.

But now that I'm finished fixing my old clapped out banger... I can get down to the business of explaining exactly why I don't think America has "never really won a war". Thankfully some more independently minded posters have now joined this thread so it won't just be me against "Team America: World Police".

So I'll simply put forward my case and let you guys discuss the merits...

No need to respond... more posts coming.


The Luke

The Luke

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3017
  • What's that in the bushes?
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #161 on: September 26, 2009, 05:37:20 PM »
Why America has Never Really Won a War.


In order to avoid confusion, the first thing we must do is define our terms and frame of reference.


Ever since it's inception, America has been unique among warlike nations for being curiously reluctant to commit itself to OPEN warfare. While eager to engage in military conflicts; whether as an invited or uninvited participant; instigator or aggrieved victim of foreign aggression... neither the United States nor it's military could ever be accused of being war-shy or even prudently cautious regarding military engagement.

Hence America's histrory is replete with military escalations that routinely snowball small-scale entanglements in foreign skirmishes into major conflicts later retrospectively termed wars.

Hence "support" in the forms of troops becomes the Vietnam "War", only years later.

Military "action" to enforce a UN sanction becomes the Iraq "War" (later)...only years later etc etc.


So our terms of reference are blurred... does "war" as it relates to my contention include the vaguaries of so-called economic warfare? ...what about America's announced yet unending wars against poverty; drugs; terrorism?

What of America's role in the various Balkans conflicts...? A conflict in which America neither chose sides nor announced any particular military or political objectives, yet liberally applied military force hoping to alter the course of what was essentially an internal religious/civil war? Can you win a "war" without being on the winning side...? ...without there ever being a winning side?


Obviously we must limit ourselves to actually, proper, real wars to avoid pedanticly spiralling off topic at every turn.

For the sake of this argument I'm going to define a "war" as an existential conflict between nations, wherein the United States committed to achieving declared objectives.


So the question is properly defined and clarified as whether or not the United States has ever REALLY won an existential conflict with another nation achieving its declared objectives?

Has the United States EVER really achieved its objectives in an open declared existential conflict with another nation?

I don't think it has... and I'm going to explain why.


The Luke

The Luke

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3017
  • What's that in the bushes?
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #162 on: September 26, 2009, 05:54:17 PM »
As I explained, being historically reluctant to engage in open warfare, the United states has only ever participated in a handful of declared wars with stated objectives.

Those FIVE conflicts for which the United States made a FORMAL declaration of war are:

1-   1812   The Anglo American War ...war formally declared on the United Kingdom

2-   1846   The Mexican American War ...war formally declared on Mexico

3-   1898   The Spanish American War ...war formally declared on Spain

4-   1917   World War One ...war formally declared on Germany and Austro-Hungary

5-   1941   World War Two ...war formally declared on Japan and Germany (& annexed Austria)
                                       (and various allies: Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania)



I'll address each of these in turn, explaining why I believe the United States failed to achieve its declared (existential) objectives in each instance (sometimes despite convincing military victories).


The Luke

George Whorewell

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
  • TND
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #163 on: September 26, 2009, 06:46:25 PM »
Rarely do I ever encounter an individual on the internet that is representative of a few of the pompous douchebag, imaginary quasi intellectuals that I encountered in college and graduate school.

The fact that you are using those five wars as examples of how America has never won a war demonstrates irrefutably that you either (a) Have a very vivid imagination, (b) Are really not too smart and just like to pontificate on a bodybuilding message board that happens to have a politics section, (c) Have way too much time on your hands and probably have no job, friends, or any attention from the opposite sex [ or as is more likely in your case the same sex], OR (d) A, B, and C

My gut tells me the answer is (d). 

I have my own theory for you to ponder. It's a lot more likely to be true than your hypothesis on the success of the American military... Here it is= "The Luke" has never actually had sex with another human being and is the incestuous child of a Ferret and a wheelchair bound Irish Hooker with wooden teeth.

Evidence and documentation to follow-- Stay Tuned.

Skip8282

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7004
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #164 on: September 26, 2009, 06:53:35 PM »
I will second the motion for answer:  (d)!

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #165 on: September 26, 2009, 07:01:36 PM »
Dear worthless Euro...prepare to be lit up on an epic scale. If fact here it is in an nutshell....the collective balls of Europe were dashed on the Somme and the Western Front and u idiots managed to roll on the carnage train for a few more years with a last gasp at Dien bien phu. We Americans have been forced to clean up after every mess u idiots made...exhibit one ..The Middle East. U speak of Bosnia..we went in there kicking and screaming, nobody here, especially the US military wanted any part of that mess...that was ur problm. We spent enough cash ensuring the Russians didn't come pouring over the Fulda gap. Europe begged us to get invloved. I could care less if a billion muslims died...no go juice no US blood for u. I have no idea why we're still there. We are the greatest military to ever exist..we're held back only by ethics and the short sighted Western way of war which seeks to mitigate collateral damage whenever it can. The Russians tried  our way of war in Chechnya during the first battle of Grosni..it didn't work out so well for them either. U will loose this ridiclously framed argument. I've served in Bosnia, Iraq and Afghanistan..I'm going back again shortly. I have been in the US military in one form or another since I was 17 years of age. I served with most of our allies and been to almost all the NATO countries on various operations. This is what I do. There are guys here who love this shit from a historiacl point of view and couldn't wait to see what ridiculous arguement u were prepared to make...its taken u 3 days. There are very few here who u seem to think will see things ur way, capable of a rational argument on this subject.  This will devolve into the usual Getbig "ownathon" and considering ur weak argument, its defense and current prissy attempt at a comeback, its warranted.
L

The Luke

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3017
  • What's that in the bushes?
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #166 on: September 26, 2009, 07:23:08 PM »
1-   1812   The Anglo American War ...war formally declared on the United Kingdom

While there are numerous contributing factors involved in the escalation of tensions between the newly minted democratic republic of the United States and Great Britiain in the lead up the 1812 Anglo American War:

-effective embargo of free trade between America and France
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_in_Council_(1807)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embargo_Act_of_1807
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Intercourse_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macon%27s_Bill_Number_2

-forced conscription of American citizens by British forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_1756 ...as it related to "impressment" (conscription)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe-Pinkney_Treaty ...failure to solve impressment diplomatically

-British military support for the Native American resistence of US expansion/land-grabs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tecumseh%27s_War ...and claims of a possible independent "Indian State"

-the various political/propaganda machinations utilised to manipulate public opinion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_letters
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Hawk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Belt_Affair
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chesapeake-Leopard_Affair ...changing public perception of impressment


...I don't want to go into every single detail here as I hope we can at least reach the basic level of discourse in which consensus history is stipulated by both sides.


I'm only hoping to defend my opinion that America didn't really win this war.


In my opinion, (and I'm open to debate regarding this conclusion), this war is little more than a final settling of the American Revolution of 1775.

I'm somewhat of a long-cycle type thinker when it comes to history... I prefer a holistic view of historical events; not dates and numbers, legislation and politicans... but the trends and cycles which provide the underlying reality of these events... the true cause and effect seldom elucidated by history's blind chronology.


For example, I don't see the current Iraq War in the context of American military intervention prompted by enforcement of a UN mandate... not when Iraq breached 16 UN mandates; and a US supported Israel has to date breached more than 80 such mandates with impunity.

I'm a realist, I see the Iraq War as an oil war, pure and simple... an effort by the US to maintain dollar hegemony by seizing direct control of an oil asset previously entrusted to an American puppet regeime.


Similarly, I see the 1812-1815 Anglo American War in terms of warring power structures... the newly established Freemasonic constitutional American/French-Napoleonic system versus the aristocratic banking-controlled neo-feudal system of Great Britain... a New-World egalitarian enlightenment (America supported ideologically by post-aristocracy France) versus a Medieval feudal hierarchy administered by banking interests (the Bristish Empire).


Simply put, this war was an extension of the American Revolution... and the American Revolution was essentially fought to free the United States from the British Central Banking System.

So did America, with this win against British Central Banking in the international arena, and the domestic win against the Bristish Central Banking System constituting the American Revolution, really win out over the British Central Banking System?

Yes, America won the battle against the banking establishment (British Central Banking System) seizure of the American economy with the American Revolution.

Yes, America also won the battle against the banking establishment (British Central Banking System) for international hegemony with the Anglo American War.

But did the British Central Banking System (the real power behind the throne and parliament of Britain) really win the war?
 

I maintain that it did.

The closest America came to actually winning this two stage revolution (American Revolution 1775 and Anglo American War 1812) was the election of Andrew Jackson in 1829, who ran on the explicit platform of eliminating America's own Central Bank (the Second National Bank) which constituted the last vestige of the British Central Banking System (political control by means of monetary/debt manipulation by a banking cabal) playing fifth column within the United States.

This he did in 1833, then quickly paid off the American National Debt, for the first (and only) time in American history.


However, sadly, America did NOT really win this or any other war to free itself of the British Central Banking System.


The United States, its monetary system, its debt, its political system, its very citizens are currently wholly controlled/owned by America's THIRD national bank: the Federal Reserve.

Did America militarily defeat the British Banking Establishment and their Central Banking System with the Anglo American War of 1812... yes.

Did America really win the war to be free of the British Central Banking System?

Well, the British model of centralised banking has just usurped pretty much every government in the world, while simultaneously bankrupting most of the developed worlds citizens and destroying the dollar, all in order to create an unassailable neo-feudal banking aristocracy (poposed IMF World Bank with Special Drwaing Rights global currency)

I reckon they really won the war.



The Luke

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #167 on: September 26, 2009, 07:28:45 PM »
Sure thing...war of 1812...ah nobody cares Luke. U say War of 1812 I think Francis Scot Key, Old Ironsides and the Battle of New Orleans...and the fact that the Brits burnt our capital. This was never ur point...things got away from u and now u have dug up some obscure point...go write a book. This is ridiculous.
L

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6799
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #168 on: September 26, 2009, 07:38:15 PM »
And now a specail message for Luke

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

headhuntersix

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 17271
  • Our forefathers would be shooting by now
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #169 on: September 26, 2009, 07:39:14 PM »
And with that...I'm out ....GO PATS!!!!!!
L

The Luke

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3017
  • What's that in the bushes?
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #170 on: September 26, 2009, 07:40:44 PM »
I'll continue my argument when I have a chance. Hope you guys won't smash your keyboards in the meantime. Feel free to post any (rational) questions... I'll try to answer if I can do so succinctly.


By the way, I can only assume all of this hysterical defensive screaming about American military might is an unthinking reflex of the hyper-patriotic and brainwashed... I don't remember denying American military prowess (I only remeber questioning whether America has every really won a war). So I don't see the argument?

Maybe, you guys will read my last post, that explains how I came to my conclusion (open to cogent counter argument).


Regarding, the vitriolic ad hominem attacks... I'd like to remind the more excitable posters that this is just an internet message board. If you feel some cathartic therapeutic need to vent like this, I'm afraid the only recourse I have is to politely ignore such attacks and assume you will retract them later... being in a different country I certainly can't comfort you while you rock back and forth sobbing over a tear-soaked laptop. Sorry. maybe call a friend, or family member.



The Luke

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6799
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #171 on: September 26, 2009, 07:59:46 PM »
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

George Whorewell

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 7362
  • TND
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #172 on: September 26, 2009, 08:03:15 PM »
LOL I wonder how The "Luke" would respond if he were forced to verbalize his response rather than type it...

:: In a very effiminate high pitched voice::

Yes please do cease and desist with your Ad-Hominem attacks. Normal people would just ask that others not insult them, but I am a very important internet historian with extensive knowledge on posting Wikipedia hyperlinks and carrying on like a twink douchebag. Therefore, I must insist that the Ad-Hominem attacks end at once! If you continue to persist with such chidish antics, I shall inform the moderator on duty and necessary action shall be taken!

- "The Douche"

Signing off.

The Luke

  • Getbig IV
  • ****
  • Posts: 3017
  • What's that in the bushes?
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #173 on: September 26, 2009, 08:08:42 PM »
I'm not heaaring a counter-argument... just a whole lotta melting.


The Luke

Kazan

  • Getbig V
  • *****
  • Posts: 6799
  • Sic vis pacem, parabellum
Re: The Luke: "America has never really won a war"
« Reply #174 on: September 26, 2009, 08:20:31 PM »
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ