Let's talk about IFBB judging!

[HowieW]

It wasn't missing at the O...the only callout I wanted to see but didn't was Wolf against Jay...Other than that, I thought they compared the guys pretty well....I would have also liked a few "fan friendly" callouts...Melvin against JOJ/ Darrem, QT vs Silvio, etc....

Chic, I assume you are ok from the fire in Cal?
Oh and nce again to you think that the bodybuilders should adhere to the rules along with the judges?
Thanks and good luck, Howard

[suckmymuscle]

If we can agree about what constitutes an ideal physique for both men and women then we will be able to approach judging competitors better. We also have to define just what bodybuilding is and how to actually judge physiques. The IFBB system is not the best method to judge bodybuilders.

Remember when Ben told us bodybuilding would be accepted in the Olympic Games? Nice try but it never happened. Ben so wanted this to happen that he structured the judging to mimic what happens in other sports. Thus, the rounds system evolved and it has been woe to bodybuilding ever since. Ben insisted each round should be scored. This led to all manner of nonsense over the years. No matter, Ben came up with a way to correct errant scores. Judge the top guys during a posedown!

Bodybuilding judging evolved in London, England during the NABBA Mr Universe era. It also evolved in the AAU Mr America contest. Those were the two most prestigious contests up until the Mr Olympia was created in 1965. The AAU contest became controversial because there seemed to be racial requirements and no black bodybuilder won until 1970. Not even the great Sergio Oliva could win that show. Mr America had to represent the epitome of American manhood so there was an interview component and a sports requirement. This judging process didn't impact on the other bodybuilding organizations.

What happened in England came to be the best method to judge bodybuilders. That contest became very popular and it required some method to split the bodybuilders into groups to facilitate judging so many of them. Thus, the height classes were introduced. This was just a way to accommodate many bodybuilders. There was still an overall comparison between the class winners. It was possible to judge men of different heights.

The NABBA system led to the use of many judges. Anyone who has competed in local contests knows how easy it is to stack judges and show favouritism. In the old days they selected gym owners to judge and that was about as good as it got for spreading the responsibility for judging around. NABBA saw the problem and increased the number of judges to something between 11 and 15 judges. Having more judges eliminates biases and distortions. In the IFBB system they have 7 judges. Then they discard the highest and lowest score for each competitor.That means only 5 judges actually score the contest and this clearly is not enough for important national and international contests. I would like to see the Mr Olympia judged by 21 judges.

If we define bodybuilding to be the presentation of the physique both standing relaxed and posing then we can make criterion to separate the bodybuilders. As everyone knows no one stands relaxed any more. That section of a contest was simply a way to eliminate contestants and not actually score them. Oh, you can award points, etc., but they shouldn't be counted in the overall placings. The idea is to select the best bodybuilders on the day. The best bodybuilder is the one who looks the best both standing around and then posing. The actual posing routine is but a means to demonstrate the physique and should not be scored inself. Oh, a special award for the best poser can be awarded but that ability is not what bodybuilding is about. Posing is important because if you cannot present yourself properly you are unlikely to be seen as the best there.

Okay, we use various lineups to get the top 6 bodybuilders to compare. We could make it the top 10. When those are selected the real judging takes place and that includes watching them stand relaxed, posing routine, and then comparisons. Judges should be able to call out anyone they want to see again and again. This process continues until every judge is satisfied he has separated the competitors. Once the judging is completed there is no further judging. No judge can change his mind. No judging should occur after they can talk among themselves which includes discussions with officials. Posedowns and other displays can occur but they do not count in the scoring. So there is only one score and that is after the finals are judged. The finals are when the top 6 or 10 competitors are judged. There are no rounds scored.

Let's talk about criteria. Well, since bodybuilding is about building up the muscles then the most important factor is muscle size. The biggest bodybuilder, all else equal, should win. Related to size is proportions and balance. The competitor with all muscles large wins over another with small arms or small calves, for example. It is an easy matter to come up with ratios of muscles according to the evolution of size. A guy with 18 inch arms should have calves that are 18 inches as well. A guy with 20 inch arms should have 19 inch calves to be equally proportional.

As well as size and proportions we consider appearance. The shape of muscles and the definition is important. We have terms like symmetry that are not always clearly understood. Symmetry can mean aesthetics and not only having one side the same as the other. Dorian with a torn biceps clearly suffered some symmetry loss.

It would be possible to weigh various factors. In the end you have the overall appearance of competitors and this ends up being the most important factor. This is where conditioning has come to be so important and is now used to separate the competitors. We then have problems because we have to have limits regarding the various components of judging. Can a small, conditioned guy beat a larger but smooth competitor? In modern professional contests the size differences are not so great and so conditioning becomes the factor that separates the bodybuilders. Should this be so is what must be sorted out by judging committees.

Another possible way to judge contests is to have a separate panel looking at photographs. This can be done by taking standardized photos and making all competitors the same size. This panel then judges everyone by what is seen in the photos. There could also be videos to assess the posing routine and overall appearance. This panel could count for perhaps 40% of the final scores. If we had something like this it might eliminate the aftermath where so many argue about who should have won. This would be a step towards having somewhat more objective judging.

The process of judging has been discussed and it should be done so that it is both fair and seen to be fair. There should be no bias either positive or negative. The selection of judges should be done by a committee that is open and responsible. Judges should be trained and not brainwashed. The actual placement of judges should be something to consider. The idea that judges sit close to the stage is something that should be reviewed. It is usually done because you can't have other people blocking the view of the competitors. Should judges be able to mix with the competitors as they prepare for competition? It might be that judges get a better view if they are not so close to the stage and looking up at competitors. Perhaps they should be at waist level to the bodybuilders to best view them properly. You can do this in a venue with seats that slope towards the stage.

The call outs are important and who picks who is called out is crucial. Should it be the responsibility of the chairman of judges or the head judge or a random selection of individual judges or a consensus? There should be no way that judges can know what the head judge thinks about who are the best. Clearly that doesn't happen now. Everyone knows exactly what the head judge thinks and that colours all modern contests. This is the single factor that has to change to make sure contests are seen to be honest and fair.

The judges results should be published after the awards are presented. It is possible to do this because we have done this in the past. Every judges score is there and everyone can see who voted for whom. There is no need for bodybuilders to ask where they were placed. Fans can have copies of the scores and everyone goes home informed instead of perplexed.

There is one aspect I haven't mentioned. That is faults and blemishes that detract from the physique. Important among these are gynocomastia, tattoos, stretch marks and blemishes. Whatever diminishes the physique should lower the score of competitors. Just how much is what has to be decided. Should a Mr anything have breasts? That is something that has been tolerated over the years but something that shouldn't be visible on men.

Should synthetic ways of augmenting the physique be tolerated? This is crucial regarding the practice of site injections of various agents to increase girth. There should be no inserts allowed in bodybuilding contests because that goes totally against the very core of what bodybuilding is all about. You train to build up your muscles, you do not see your plastic surgeon!

There is a huge problem regarding women. Breast augmentation is usually allowed because most females lose breast size when dieting for contests. The practice of allowing breast inserts probably has led to distortions in what we see today.

Ah, the drug issue. Sweep it under the carpet or enforce strict rules against any illegal substances as determined by the Olympic committee and other sporting organizations? If bodybuilding is about training and increasing muscle mass in the gym then there should be no cheating allowed via drugs and other chemicals. Without strict testing there can be no valid bodybuilding contests. There should be off-season testing and disqualification for life for cheaters. There should be no exceptions.

I have no doubt many of us could work together to come up with a better way to judge contests than what the IFBB does now. It would be a simple matter to assemble a super committee and form a new judging method complete with criteria, rules and processes.

  Outstanding post. I fear, however, that considering the attention span and cognitive capacities of getbiggers, I'm probably the only one who's read it.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Armstrong]

in all seriousness.  how does one become a judge?  Is their a place where we can submit an application.

[Azure]

Again what about distended stomachs.  Why aren't those marked down.  People are going to keep showing up with them if you don't mark it down.

[Dean-Europe]

Milos,very good, the changes must come....

Vidim,da ti nije dosadno ovde...pozdrav.Dean.

[biceps]

Milos,very good, the changes must come....

Vidim,da ti nije dosadno ovde...pozdrav.Dean.

Biciklici tapocki

[Milos_Sarcev]

Another one worth revisiting


http://www.getbig.com/boards/index.php?topic=177274.0

Let's talk about IFBB judging!
« on: October 24, 2007, 10:40:10 AM »
Quote Modify Remove
As much as I know that I will be criticized again - I calculated PROS and CONS and decided to post this ANYWAY...
I would like to emphasize that I AM NOT TRYING to create the problem...instead I am trying to find a solution for everlasting problem we are all facing for numerous years. Subjectivity as a nature of judging IFBB events (bodybuilding, fitness and figure).
 
I know that many IFBB officials and athletes are reading this board so I am sure this will reach ALL THE PARTIES in no time...
 
Well, I am talking about SUBJECTIVITY as a nature of judging our bodybuilding shows...and while we can't measure, time or knockout anyone - we can certainly defeat our competitors IF somebody clarifies the judging criteria...and defines what is GOOD, BETTER...and/or THE BEST.

If competitors AND JUDGES would know what we all really want (we - as bodybuilding community) - maybe we could actually agree on something...that something being - judging!

After all competitors will know HOW TO PREPARE BETTER, judges would know how to judge, fans would be less angry or confused ...or rather shocked with the results and some winners would possibly be at least somewhat ashamed [ accepting somebody's else title (money, glory...etc)...and I would not face another suspension ...or be told to - shut up..
 
Anyway, for years now we are dealing with inconsistent results and waiting for a changes...and those changes never came...Actually - things are getting worse and certainly not better and that's why I think it is time to speak up.
 
Did you ever wonder how judges really judge the show?
 
Do you think they have some point system? Some percentages(?), certain things that they are looking for (?), certain things they penalize or award athletes for (?)...Real MEASURABLE criteria?
 
Simply - they don't!
 
Judgment is given purely on subjective opinion and that could be PERSONAL PREFERENCE of the judge who is entitled to his own subjective opinion...
 
 
Well, in my opinion - judging should consider:

 
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...as ONE ASPECT OF JUDGING
 
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", "HARDNESS", TIGHT SKIN, "SHREDDED-NESS"...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
 
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
 
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK (not leaving it up for imagination of others to THINK what certain physique could look like IF presented correctly...), MISTAKE FREE POSING (#1- many competitors forget to squeeze certain muscles...and more often than not - judges would just go with: "well, if Jay squeezed his legs on Friday during the prejudging - he would have looked better so I would give him this pose considering that I know what his legs and physique looks like IF he posed correctly, #2 - many competitors let their "pregnancy show"...and that's a no-no, #3 - also many fail to find THE BEST WAY to do certain poses...etc...etc...), STAGE PRESENCE (standing in line up PERFECTLY...AT ALL TIMES), HITTING EVERY POSE WITH CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY, CHOREOGRAPHING ROUTINES with perfect transitions, SHOWING PHYSIQUE TO EMPHASIZE THE STRENGTH OF SOMEONES PHYSIQUE (and not the weaknesses...Many fail to realize that POSING ROUND is not being judged for actual posing or movement...Fat, out of shape ballet artist or out of shape professional dancer should not win the posing round by virtue of his posing skills...Posing round is PHYSIQUE ROUND where athletes could/should show their strengths USING POSES OTHER THAN MANDATORIES that present their physiques in that "special light" bodybuilders want to be known for...So, aesthetic guy could emphasize beauty of his physique, aesthetic look, perfect shape, symmetry and balance by doing EXACT POSES to exemplify WHAT HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE...
Conditioned guy on another hand could present his shredded physique by doing poses to show his shredded muscles (or maybe hide cellulite?)...and muscular guy should do as many muscular posses...thick guy presenting his thickness, wide guy his width...V-tapered guy his extreme V-taper...etc...etc
 
If someone succeeds in presentation of his strengths THAN AND ONLY THAN we could say OK - he should have place higher as he is: THIS (aesthetic, balanced, symmetrical...) or THAT (conditioned, more muscular, bigger, thicker, wider...)...
But, many times fans go with picture of their favorite champion AS THEY REMEMBER HIM from before - while only shadow of that physique is being displayed on the stage at the moment - yet "shadow" gets the same amount of points as "sentimental judgment" or "paid dues" treatment from the judges that ALSO consider what once was or what could have been (if in shape)...
 
WE NEED TO START JUDGING PHYSIQUES ON THE DAY OF THE CONTEST REGARDLESS OF NAMES, PREVIOUS OUTINGS...ETC...POLITICS ...
 
I am in a hurry actually so maybe I am rushing this a bit...but I will get back to make some points...or rather - maybe WE CAN ALL START NEW THREAD ABOUT JUDGING - and NOT to argue with judges and federation...Not to criticize but rather to START WORKING ON HELPING OUR OFFICIALS FINDING THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE...
 
To take that "subjectivity OUT" or at least reduce it to minimum...so we (ALL OF US WHO LOVE SPORT OF BODYBUILDING, ATHLETES AS WELL AS FANS) could have clear idea WHY some guy managed to place ahead of others...
 
Judges should be able to explain WHY they saw Jay superior to OTHERS at 2007 Mr. Olympia...(just as one of numerous examples).
 
Did they saw him better in:
 
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...department?
 
I don't think so...as I see many beating Jay in this aspect of judging.
 
 
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", HARDNESS, TIGHT SKIN, SHREDDED-NESS...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
 
 
I don't think so - AGAIN...
 
 
 
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
 
Maybe in this one? So this is "holly grail" of bodybuilding - BIGGER IS BETTER AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS?
 
 
 
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK
 
Again...NOT the case (in my book)...
 
 
So, let's help our judges...which will ultimately help our sport.
 
Give your point of view...and we could at least start SOLVING THE PROBLEM - very easily...

And let's keep it NICE and CIVIL..without unnecessary attacks...

Again - I am looking for SOLUTION and not the ARGUMENT... and I hope we all do?
 
 
 

[Milos_Sarcev]

APPENDIX 2
 
HOW TO ASSESS AN ATHLETE’S PHYSIQUE
 
1.1 General:
When assessing a competitor’s physique, a judge should follow a
routine procedure which will allow a comprehensive assessment of
the physique as a whole.

During the comparisons of the compulsory poses, the judge should first look at the primary
muscle group being displayed.  The judge should then survey the
whole physique, starting from the head, and looking at every part
of the physique in a downward sequence, beginning with general
impressions, and looking for muscular bulk, balanced
development, muscular density and definition.  The downward
survey should take in the head, neck, shoulders, chest, all of the
arm muscles, front of the trunk for pectorals, pec-delt tie-in,
abdominals, waist, thighs, legs, calves and feet.  The same
procedure for back poses will also take in the upper and lower
trapezius, teres and infraspinatus, erector spinae, the gluteus
group, the leg biceps group at the back of the thighs, calves, and
feet.  A detailed assessment of the various muscle groups should
be made during the comparisons, at which time it helps the judge
to compare muscle shape, density, and definition while still
bearing in mind the competitor’s overall balanced development.
The comparisons of the compulsory poses cannot be over-
emphasized as these comparisons will help the judge to decide
which competitor has the superior physique from the standpoint of
muscular bulk, balanced development, muscular density and
definition.
 
1.2 Men’s Compulsory Poses:
 
1. Front Double Biceps (see Figure 1)
 
Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet
in-line and a short distance apart, the competitor will raise
both arms to shoulder level and bend them at the elbows.
 The hands should be clenched and turned down so as to
cause a contraction of the biceps and forearm muscles,
which are the main muscle groups that are to be assessed
in this pose.  In addition, the competitor should attempt
to contract as many other muscles as possible as the
judges will be surveying the whole physique, from head to
toe.
 
The judge will first survey the biceps muscles looking for a
full, peaked development of the muscle, noting whether
or not there is a defined split between  the anterior and
posterior sections of the biceps, and will continue the
head-to-toe survey by observing the development of the
forearms, deltoids, pectorals, pec-delt tie-ins, abdominals,

thighs, and calves. The judge will also look for muscle
density, definition, and overall balance.
 
2. Front  Lat Spread (see Figure 2)
 
 Standing face front to the judges, with the legs and feet a
short distance apart, the competitor will place the open
hands, or clenched fists, against, or gripping, the lower
waist or obliques and will expand the latissimus muscles. 
At the same time, the competitor should attempt to
contract as many other frontal muscles as possible. It
shall be strictly forbidden for the competitor to pull up on
the posing trunks so as to show the top inside of the
quadriceps.
 
The judge should first see whether the competitor can
show a good spread of the latissimus muscles, thereby
creating a V-shaped torso.  Then the judge should
continue with the head-to-foot survey, noting first the
general aspectsof the physique and then concentrating on
the more detailed aspects of the various muscle groups.
 
3. Side Chest (see Figure 3)
 
 The competitor may choose either side for this pose, in
order to display the “better” arm.  He will stand with his
left or right side towards the judges and will bend the arm
nearest the judges to a right-angle position, with the fist
clenched and, with the other hand, will grasp the wrist. 
The leg nearest the judges will be bent at the knee and
will rest on the toes.  The competitor will then expand the
chest and by upward pressure of the front bent arm and
contract the biceps as much as possible.  He will also
contract the thigh muscles, in particular, the biceps
femoris group, and by downward pressure on his toes,
will display the contracted calf muscles.
 
 The judge will pay particular attention to the pectoral
muscles and the arch of the rib cage, the biceps, the leg
biceps and the calves, and will conclude with the head-to-
foot examination.  In this pose the judge will be able to
survey the thigh and calf muscles in profile, which will
help in grading their comparative development more
accurately.
 
4. Back Double Biceps (see Figure 4)
 
 Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
bend the arms and wrists as in the Front Double Biceps
pose, and will place one foot back, resting on the toes. 
He will then contract the arm muscles as well as the
muscles of the shoulders, upper and lower back, thigh
and calf muscles.

 The judge will first survey the arm muscles and then do
the head-to-foot survey, during which there are more
muscle groups to look at than in all of the other poses. 
This includes the neck, deltoids, biceps, triceps, forearm,
trapezius, teres, infraspinatus, erector spinae, external
obliques, latissimus dorsi, gluteus, thigh biceps, and
calves.  This pose, probably more than the others, will
help the judge to determine the quality of the
competitor’s muscle density, definition, and overall
balance.
 
5. Back Lat Spread (see Figure 5)
 
 Standing with his back to the judges, the competitor will
place his hands on his waist with his elbows kept wide,
one foot back and resting on the toes.  He will then
contract the latissimus dorsi as wide as possible and
display a calf contraction by pressing downward on the
rear toes.  The competitor should make an effort to
display the opposite calf to that which was displayed
during the back double biceps pose so the the judge may
assess both calf muscle equally.  It shall be strictly
forbidden for the competitor to pull up on the posing
trunks so as to show the gluteus maximus muscles.
 
 The judge will look for a good spread of the latissimus
dorsi, but also for good muscle density and will again
conclude with the head-to-foot survey.
 
6. Side Triceps (see Figure 6)
 
 The competitor may choose either side for this pose so as
to show the “better” arm. He will stand with his left or
right side towards the judges and will place both arms
behind his back, either linking his fingers or grasping the
front arm by the wrist with his rear hand.  The leg nearest
the judges will be bent at the knee and the foot will rest
flat on the floor.  The competitor will exert pressure
against his front arm, thereby causing the triceps muscle
to contract.  He will also raise the chest and contract the
abdominal muscles as well as the thigh and calf muscles.
 
 The judge will first survey the triceps muscles, and
conclude with the head-to-foot examination.  In this pose,
the judge will be able to survey the thigh and calf muscles
in profile, which will help in grading their comparative
development more accurately.
 
7. Abdominals and Thighs (see Figure 7)
 
 Standing face front to the judges, the competitor will
place both arms behind the head and will place one leg
forward.  He will then contract the abdominal muscles by

“crunching” the trunk slightly forward.  At the same time,
he will contract the thigh muscles of the forward leg.
 
 The judge will survey the abdominal and thigh muscles,
and then conclude with the head-to-foot examination.
 
1.3 Assessing Prejudging:
In assessing prejudging, overall shape and that of the various
muscle groups is important.  The judge should favour competitors
with a harmonious, classical physique.  The judge should look for
good posture and athletic bearing, correct anatomical structure
(including body framework, broad shoulders, high chest, correct
spinal curves, limbs and trunk in good proportion, straight legs,
not bandy or knock-kneed).  The judge should also look for good
skin tone with an absence of surgical or other scars, spots, acne
or tatoos, which the IFBB considers as a skin blemish, tidily
dressed hair, well-shaped feet, and toes.  When having difficulty in
placing two or more competitors who seem to be on the same
level, the judge should look for faults in those aspects listed above
which will help to differentiate among the competitors.

 

[Milos_Sarcev]

Article 24 – Resolving Ties
 
24.1 Resolving Ties at Prejudging:
Should a tie occur in the Prejudging “RD1 (SUB)SCORE”, the tie is
broken using the “Relative Placement” method.  Each individual
judge’s scores for the tied athletes is compared on a column-by-
column basis with a dot being placed on top of the number for the
athlete with the lower placing.  All nine regular panel judge’s
scores are included in the tie breaking calculations.  The number
of dots are tallied for each of the tied athletes.  The athlete with
the greater number of dots is declared the winner of the tie and
therefore receives the better placing.
 
24.2 Resolving Ties at Finals:
Should a tie occur in the Finals, “RD2 SUBSCORE”, the tie need
not be immediately broken, as the “RD2 SUBSCORE” must be
added to the “RD3 SUBSCORE” to produce a “FINAL SCORE”. 
Should a tie occur in the Finals, “RD3 SUBSCORE”, the tie need
not be immediately broken, as the “RD3 SUBSCORE” must be
added to the “RD2 SUBSCORE” to produce a “FINAL SCORE”. 
Should a tie occur in the “FINAL SCORE”, the tie shall be broken in
favor of the competitor with the better “RD3 SUBSCORE”.  If the
“RD3 SUBSCORE” is tied, the tie shall be broken using the
“Relative Placement” method and using the athlete’s Round 3
scores.
 
Article 25 – Publication of Results
 
251 Results:
The Judges Secretary will collect the Statistician’s Score Sheet for
each category and will then transcribe the results onto Form #9,
entitled “Final Scoresheet.   Copies of these sheets will be
distributed to the national delegations, press, radio, and television
immediately after the competition (normally at the Farewell
Banquet).
 
 
 
25.2 Contents:
The “Final Scoresheet” will contain the number, name and
country of every athlete participating in each category, listing
the top 15 finalists in order of competitor number, together with
their round-by-round point total, followed by the remaining
athletes by number, name and country.
 
25.3 Other Contents:
The “Overall Champion” and the top 3 finalists in the “Best
National Team” Award will also be listed on the “Final
Scoresheet”.
 
25.4 Amendments:
The IFBB will publish online at www.ifbb.com  any subsequent
amendment(s) to the initial competition results e.g. as a result of
doping control.
 

[The Showstoppa]

1.3 Assessing Prejudging:
In assessing prejudging, overall shape and that of the various
muscle groups is important.  The judge should favour competitors
with a harmonious, classical physique.  The judge should look for
good posture and athletic bearing, correct anatomical structure
(including body framework, broad shoulders, high chest, correct
spinal curves, limbs and trunk in good proportion, straight legs,
not bandy or knock-kneed).  The judge should also look for good
skin tone with an absence of surgical or other scars, spots, acne
or tatoos, which the IFBB considers as a skin blemish, tidily
dressed hair, well-shaped feet, and toes.  When having difficulty in
placing two or more competitors who seem to be on the same
level, the judge should look for faults in those aspects listed above
which will help to differentiate among the competitors.
 

haha

[Milos_Sarcev]

FROM IFBB RULEBOOK 2006-2007 EDITION:


13.10 Accuracy in Judging:
The following rules pertain to judging accuracy:
 
1. The Code of Ethics obligate our sport’s officials to ensure
that all athletes are adjudicated by the most qualified
judges available.  The IFBB Judges Committee is
empowered to take whatever measures it deems
necessary to ensure that this obligation is met by
selecting and panelling only those judges who meet or
exceed the minimum accepted standard of judging
accuracy approved by the IFBB.
 
2. The minimum acceptable standard is an overall average
score of 65% (70% at Prejudging; 60% at Finals).
 
3. Judging accuracy is calculated using the “Deviation
Method”.  This method calculates the “deviation” between
an individual judge’s placement of an athlete and the
entire regular judge’s panel placement of that same
athlete.


Article 16 – Prejudging: Elimination Round
 
16.1 General:
The Prejudging, which is open to the general public, will take
place the day after the Official Athlete Registration.  A time-table
for prejudging each category should be published and should
allow for approximately 30 minutes for the judging of  each
category. In order to give themselves time to warm up and
change into their posing attire, competitors should be in the
backstage warmup area at least 30 minutes prior to the start time
of the judging of their category. All competitors will be solely
responsible for ensuring that they are present and prepared to
compete when their category is called onstage failing which they
may be eliminated from the competition.
 
16.2 Procedures:
When there are more than 15 athletes competing in a category,
an elimination round will be held for the purpose of reducing the
number to 15.  The elimination round will proceed as follows:
 
1. All of the athletes in the category will be brought onstage
in a single line (two lines if necessary) and in numerical
order. The IFBB Chief Judge will then direct the
competitors, centre-stage, in numerical order and in
groups of not more than 5 competitors at a time, through
the following four compulsory poses:
 
a. Front double biceps;
b. Side chest;
c. Back double biceps; and
d. Abdominals and thighs.
 
2. Using Form #1, entitled “Preliminary Assessment
(Judges)”, if there are more than 21 competitors in a
category, the judge will mark an "X" beside the numbers
corresponding to the competitors whom they wish to
select as the top 15 finalists.  If there are 16 to 21
competitors in a category, the judge will mark an "X"
beside the numbers corresponding to the competitors
whom they wish to eliminate from the top 15 finalists.
 
3. Using Form #2, entitled “Preliminary Assessment
(Statisticians)”, the statisticians will transcribe the judge’s
decisions by recording, under each judge’s name, their
selections. They will then add up the total number of “X”s
for each competitor and record the result in the column
marked “TOTAL”. Depending on the procedure used in
article 16.2.2. above, either the top 15 competitors will be
selected, or the bottom 1 to 6 competitors will be
eliminated.  At the end of  the elimination round,
regardless of which procedure is used, the final result will
allow only the top 15 competitors to proceed to the
Prejudging.

 
4. Should a tie occur at the 15th position, the tied
competitors will be brought back onstage and will once
again be directed, by the IFBB Chief Judge, through the
four compulsory poses for the purpose of breaking the tie.  
 
Article 17 – Prejudging: Round One (Comparisons of
Compulsory Poses)
 
17.1 Procedures:
The Prejudging (Round One) will immediately follow the
elimination round and will proceed as follows:
 
1. All 15 finalists will be called onstage as a group, in a
single line and in numerical order.  The judging panel
should be given a moment to note the competitor
numbers on their score sheet.
 
2. In groups of not more than 5 competitors at a time, and
in numerical order, the competitors will be directed to
perform the following four poses at centre-stage:
 
a. Front relaxed followed by Front Double Biceps
b. Side Chest
c. Back relaxed followed by Back Double Biceps
d. Abdominal & Thighs
 
This posing will not be scored but will be used by the
judges to determine their own individual comparisons,
which will immediately follow.
 
3. In Round 1, the judges will compare the competitors
while they are directed to perform the following seven
compulsory poses (five for women), up to a maximum of
five athletes at a time:
 
a. Front double biceps;
b. Front lat spread (men only);
c. Side chest;
d. Back double biceps;
e. Back lat spread (men only);
f. Side triceps; and
g. Abdominals and thighs.
 
4. Each judge is expected to watch all of the comparisons
and not just those that a specific judge has requested.  
Guidelines on “How to Assess an Athlete’s Physique” are
attached as Appendix 2.
 
5. Using Form #3, entitled “Judges Individual Placings
(Prejudging)”, each judge will mark the competitors in
placings of 1 through 15, indicating where a particular
athlete stands in comparison with the other 14 athletes,
and will not give more than one athlete the same placing.
In order to assist with these decisions, the judges may
use Form #4, entitled “Judge’s Personal Notes”, said form
which is considered confidential and the sole property of
the judge.
 
6. The statisticians will transcribe each judge’s placings onto
Form #5, entitled “Score Sheet (Statisticians)”, under the
Prejudging section. They will then eliminate two high and
two low scores for each competitor, and will add up the
remaining five scores and record the results in the column
marked “RD1 (SUB)SCORE”. Once all of the scores have
been determined, they will then record a placing for each
competitor under the column marked “RD1 PLACE”.  The
competitor with the lowest subscore is awarded 1st place
while the competitor with the highest subscore is awarded
15th place. The top 6 placings qualify for the Finals.
 
7. The same routine will be followed for each category, the
order of which is from lowest category to highest
category.
 
8. Should a tie occur in the “RD1 (SUB)SCORE”, the tie will
be broken using the “Relative Placement” method.  Each
individual judge’s scores for the tied athletes is compared
on a column-by-column basis with a dot being placed on
top of the number for the athlete with the lower placing.  
All nine regular panel judge’s scores are included in the tie
breaking calculations.  The number of dots is tallied for
each of the tied athletes.  The athlete with the greater
number of dots is declared the winner of the tie and
therefore, receives the better placing.  
 
9. The statistician’s score sheets and the competitor’s scores
must be kept strictly confidential and are known only to
the statisticians, the IFBB Chief Judge, and the Judges
Secretary who are obligated not to divulge any score, or
scores, to any competitor, judge, other official,
administrator, organizer, or member of the IFBB Executive
Council, except the President.
 
10. The scores for the Prejudging will be used to place the top
15 competitors from 1st place to 15th place.  The top 6
competitors from the Prejudging will advance to the Finals
and will start the Finals with zero points.
 
11. At the discretion of the IFBB Chief Judge, the top 6
finalists may be announced after the Prejudging and
before the Finals.

Article 19 – Finals: Round Two (Posing Routines)
 
19.1 Procedures:
The Finals will immediately follow the Opening Ceremony and will
proceed as follows:
 
1. In Round 2, the top 6 finalists will be brought onstage in a
single line and in numerical order.  Each finalist will be
introduced by number, country and name.
 
2. Each of the top 6 finalists, in numerical order, will perform
an individual posing routine to music of his or her choice,
up to a maximum of 60 seconds.  This round will be
scored.
 
3. Using Form #6, entitled “Judge’s Individual Placings
(Finals)”, each judge will mark the competitors in placings
of 1 through 6, and will not give more than one athlete
the same placing.
 
4. The statisticians will transcribe each judge’s placings onto
Form #5, entitled “Score Sheet (Statisticians)”, under the
Finals section, Round 2. They will then eliminate two high
and two low scores for each competitor, and will add up
the remaining five scores and record the results in the
column marked “RD2 SUBSCORE”.  Round 2 shall have a
weight of one-third of the final score, or 33%.
 
5. Ties in the “RD2 SUBSCORE” need not be immediately
broken, as the “RD2 SUBSCORE” will be added to the
“RD3  SUBSCORE” to produce a “FINAL SCORE”.
 
6. The same nine judges who adjudicated a category at the
Prejudging will judge the same category at the finals (e.g.
the panel of judges seated for the men’s bantamweight
category during the Prejudging will be the same panel of
judges seated for the men’s bantamweight category
during the Finals).
 
Article 20 – Finals: Round Three (Compulsory Poses and
Posedown)
 
20.1 Procedures:
The Finals (Round Three) will immediately follow the Finals
(Round Two) and will proceed as follows:
 
1. In Round 3, under the direction of the IFBB Chief Judge,
the top 6 finalists will perform the 7 compulsory poses, as
a group and at the same time, in the middle, left and right
stage areas.  An 8th pose, the “Most Muscular”, will be
called as the last pose before the posedown.  This round
will be scored.
 
2. As soon as the 7 compulsory poses are completed, the
IFBB Chief Judge will call for a 60-second posedown to
music of the Organizer’s choice.  This round will not be
scored.
 
3. Using Form #6, entitled “Judge’s Individual Placings
(Finals)”, each judge will mark the competitors in placings
of 1 through 6, indicating where a particular athlete
stands in comparison with the other 5 athletes, and will
not give more than one athlete the same placing.
 
4. The statisticians will transcribe each judge’s placings onto
Form #5, entitled “Score Sheet (Statisticians)”, under the
Finals section, Round 3. They will then eliminate two high
and two low scores for each competitor, and will add up
the remaining five scores and record the results in the
column marked “RD3 SUBSCORE”.  They will then add the
“RD2 SUBSCORE”  and the “RD3 SUBSCORE” to produce
a “FINAL SCORE”.  They will then record a placing for
each competitor under the column marked “FINAL
PLACE”.  The competitor with the lowest “FINAL SCORE”
is awarded 1st place while the competitor with the highest
“FINAL SCORE” is awarded 6th place.  Round 3 shall have
a weight of two-thirds of the final score, or 67%.  To
achieve this, the Round 3 score shall be doubled by the
statistician.
 
5. Ties in the “RD3 SUBSCORE” need not be immediately
broken, as the “RD3 SUBSCORE” will be added to the
“RD2 SUBSCORE” to produce a “FINAL SCORE”.
 
6. Should a tie occur in the “FINAL SCORE”, the tie shall be
broken in favor of the competitor with the better “RD3
SUBSCORE”.  If the “RD3 SUBSCORE” is tied, the tie shall
be broken using the “Relative Placement” method and
using the athlete’s Round 3 scores.
 
7. During the Prejudging and Finals, the Judges Secretary
will be responsible for collecting the individual mark
sheets from the judges and, together with the IFBB Chief
Judge, will scrutinize the marks for the purpose of
determining their accuracy. If any judge has awarded
marks that are greatly at variance with those of the other
judges, the Chief Judge may question that judge for an
explanation of his or her marks. The IFBB Chief Judge has
authority to remove from the panel any judge who is
unfairly biased or incompetent, or who engages in
misconduct or unacceptable behaviour.

 

[Milos_Sarcev]

FROM www.bodybuilding.co m:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?p=87128953#post87128953

Quote:
Originally Posted by KRN-GOOKX891 View Post
if u were a judge wat would've been ur top ten?

MY 2007 MR.OLYMPIA PLACING:

1/2/3- Dennis Wolf
1/2/3- Victor Martinez
1/2/3- Dexter Jackson

I would really have to see them in direct comparison to be able to judge with absolute certainty - but these guys were top three

4/5 - Johnnie Jackson
4/5 - Melvin Anthony

6/7 - Gustavo Badell
6/7 - Jay Cutler

8 - Ronnie Coleman

9/10/11 - Hidetada Yamagishi
9/10/11 - Ronnie Rockel
9/10/11 - David Henry

12 - Darrem Charles

13- Silvio Samuel

etc...

And I base this placing on PHYSIQUES ONLY - not politics...And when I have a time I could elaborate how and why I placed EACH AND EVERY COMPETITOR...


TheGame76

The only thing that really sticks out to me is Hidetatada up in 9/10/11 and Silvio all the way down in 13th. Could you please explain that one?

Yes, very much so...and please don't forget that I trained both of them for few months ON DAILY BASES and saw them pose next to each other countless number of times...

Silvio is also PHENOMENAL BODYBUILDER BY ALL MEANS and me putting him LOWER than where he placed is absolutely NOT from any vendetta (what many would think...)

I think he considerably worsened his balance - and his legs are now really overpowering his upper body in many poses...
His back is also considerably smaller and somewhat softer than earlier this year...and that could be said for the rest of his upper body as well.

Look at the photos from the Ironman, Sacramento, Arnold Classic and compare it to Europa show (which he won) and Olympia...

When he lifts his arms up (front and back double biceps pose) it is clearly visible how small is his torso in comparison to his legs...+ what is surprising - his great arms don't look to impressive once he lifts them up...
What seems to be phenomenal arm (in down position) becomes below average arm when is in double biceps pose...(Contrary to Hide - who's arms are becoming incredible...)

So :
#1 - balance issue (legs too big for his upper body)
#2 - torso quite small/ somewhat narrow
#3 - calves need much work
#4 - lifted arms - not as impressive
#5 - lat spread - not as wide
#6 - posing while improved still NOT at professional level
#7 - still making "mistakes" of letting his stomach out on stage (occasionally  enough to be photographed with his stomach out.../see some comparison photos on getbig or my site...)

to name the few...
Now, Hide is not perfect either (nobody is perfect...except me - off course...but that is another story...) but he was more muscular, thicker, wider (yes wider even though Hide is not particularly wide), fuller...with better stage presence, presentation, posing...

Symmetry round:
FRONT, both sides and rear relax pose - Balance (Hide), Shape (Silvio), Conditioning (tie), Muscularity (Hide), Presentation (Hide)


Front double biceps: Hide

Rear double biceps: Hide

Front lat spread: some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)

Rear lat spread:some advantages Silvio...some Hide (we can analyze deeply)


Side chest: Hide (Silvio is good in this pose - but overall impression goes to Hide...and I am talking about EVERY ASPECT of bodybuilding I am considering when judging)


Side triceps:  same as above


Abs and thighs: Silvio


Most muscular: close


Posing routine: Hide




Judging should consider:

1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...as ONE ASPECT OF JUDGING

2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", "HARDNESS", TIGHT SKIN, "SHREDDED-NESS"...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...

3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...

4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK (not leaving it up for imagination of others to THINK what certain physique could look like IF presented correctly...), MISTAKE FREE POSING (#1- many competitors forget to squeeze certain muscles...and more often than not - judges would just go with: "well, if Jay squeezed his legs on Friday during the prejudging - he would have looked better so I would give him this pose considering that I know what his legs and physique looks like IF he posed correctly, #2 - many competitors let their "pregnancy show"...and that's a no-no, #3 - also many fail to find THE BEST WAY to do certain poses...etc...etc.. .), STAGE PRESENCE (standing in line up PERFECTLY...AT ALL TIMES), HITTING EVERY POSE WITH CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY, CHOREOGRAPHING ROUTINES with perfect transitions, SHOWING PHYSIQUE TO EMPHASIZE THE STRENGTH OF SOMEONES PHYSIQUE (and not the weaknesses...Many fail to realize that POSING ROUND is not being judged for actual posing or movement...Fat, out of shape ballet artist or out of shape professional dancer should not win the posing round by virtue of his posing skills...Posing round is PHYSIQUE ROUND where athletes could/should show their strengths USING POSES OTHER THAN MANDATORIES that present their physiques in that "special light" bodybuilders want to be known for...So, aesthetic guy could emphasize beauty of his physique, aesthetic look, perfect shape, symmetry and balance by doing EXACT POSES to exemplify WHAT HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE...
Conditioned guy on another hand could present his shredded physique by doing poses to show his shredded muscles (or maybe hide cellulite?)...and muscular guy should do as many muscular posses...thick guy presenting his thickness, wide guy his width...V-tapered guy his extreme V-taper...etc...etc

If someone succeeds in presentation of his strengths THAN AND ONLY THAN we could say OK - he should have place higher as he is: THIS (aesthetic, balanced, symmetrical...) or THAT (conditioned, more muscular, bigger, thicker, wider...)...
But, many times fans go with picture of their favorite champion AS THEY REMEMBER HIM from before - while only shadow of that physique is being displayed on the stage at the moment - yet "shadow" gets the same amount of points as "sentimental judgment" or "paid dues" treatment from the judges that ALSO consider what once was or what could have been (if in shape)...

WE NEED TO START JUDGING PHYSIQUES ON THE DAY OF THE CONTEST REGARDLESS OF NAMES, PREVIOUS OUTINGS...ETC...POL ITICS...

I am in a hurry actually so maybe I am rushing this a bit...but I will get back to make some points...or rather - maybe WE CAN ALL START NEW THREAD ABOUT JUDGING - and NOT to argue with judges and federation...Not to criticize but rather to START WORKING ON HELPING OUR OFFICIALS FINDING THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE...

To take that "subjectivity OUT" or at least reduce it to minimum...so we (ALL OF US WHO LOVE SPORT OF BODYBUILDING, ATHLETES AS WELL AS FANS) could have clear idea WHY some guy managed to place ahead of others...

Judges should be able to explain WHY they saw Jay superior to OTHERS at 2007 Mr. Olympia...

Did they saw him better in:

1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...depart ment?

I don't think so...as I see many beating Jay in this aspect of judging.


2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", HARDNESS, TIGHT SKIN, SHREDDED-NESS...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...


I don't think so - AGAIN...



3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...

Maybe in this one? So this is "holly grail" of bodybuilding - BIGGER IS BETTER AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS?



4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK

Again...NOT the case (in my book)...


So, let's help our judges...which will ultimately help our sport.

Give your point of view...and we could SOLVE THE PROBLEM - very easily...

[Milos_Sarcev]

Judging FIGURE COMPETITIONS

http://milossarcev.com/board/index.php?topic=3363.45



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Re: Judging IFBB PRO FIGURE COMPETITIONS
« Reply #160 on: October 31, 2005, 04:29:04 AM »          
UNDERSTANDING FIGURE JUDGING
Answering The Question: "How could I end up 12th on every judge's scorecard?"

from Bill Dobbins.com:
If you are wondering on what basis figure is judged, given that there aren't the same kind of more-or-less objective criteria to go by that you find in bodybuilding, you are out of luck - because nobody can really tell you.  Over time, the judges have gravitated toward a longer-waisted, longer-proportioned type of body than you find in fitness or bodybuilding, where the more compact physiques tend to win.   But that is more of a tradition than a set of criteria.

But given this tradition, a general rule is that competitors who have the same type of structure as Davana Medina, Jenny Lynn, Amber Littlejohn and Mary Elizabeth Lado will tend to have an advantage.  But that's only in general.  In specific contests there are liable to be all sorts of body types included in the top five or the top ten – although many of the women who place well finished way down in their last contest and will finish out of the top ten in the next one they enter. 

But what confuses competitors is not so much that placings can vary so widely from show to show.  It is the almost amazing degree of consistency you tend to see in the scorecards in any given contest.  That's where the quote at the beginning of this article comes from.  A figure competitor asked me if I thought there was some kind of collusion among the judges, some meeting in which they received instructions on how to vote.  How else, she thought, could a group of nine or eleven judges all agree on who should finish 11th, 12th or whatever?

Anyone who examines figure scorecards and see that this type of thing does seem to happen fairly often.  But what causes this is not some kind of conspiracy among the judges in which the placings are determined ahead of time.  Instead, the process that creates this kind of result actually takes place during the contest and is perfectly obvious to everyone watching if they know what to look for.

The key is the control exercised by the head judge over the call-outs.  While prejudging call-outs in IFBB bodybuilding have always involved a more mixed quality of competitors in any given group, the NPC style is more specific: the first five called out are the top five, the next group defines who will finish 6th through 10th, then the next group of five and so on.  In bodybuilding, this is a fairly effective and efficient process.  Because there is a tradition of specific standards in bodybuilding, judges might disagree as to whether a competitor should be 2nd or 3rd, but not whether they should be 2nd or 12th.  There simply shouldn't be that much disagreement among competent judges in the vast majority of cases.

But judges in figure can't rely simply on their own experience or expertise.  They just aren't any specific standards to go by.  The practice in fitness, which is also applied in figure, is to give high placings to women who have done well in past contests or who look like those who have placed well in the past.   But there has always been a much greater degree of "sameness" in fitness bodies than in figure, because the fitness women also had to be gymnasts (for the most part) and excelling in gymnastic moves requires a small, lean, compact body.

But because of the misconception that figure is somehow "easier," a lot of women from both fitness and bodybuilding have decided to switch categories.  So the figure line-up  - especially at the pro level where there are no height categories – usually contains a wide variety of different body types.  Tall, long-bodied competitors stand next to former gymnasts and bodybuilders as well as sexy "bikini models."  So what's a judge to do?  How can you arrive at a series of placings that conforms to the consistency? required by both the NPC and the IFBB?

The answer is that you follow the lead of the head judge.   Here is a scenario that takes place more often than you might think:  The head judge calls out five competitors.  Whether that would be your top five or whether you think all the competitors in the group deserve to be there doesn't matter.  The judges have now been told who the top five are supposed to be.  Disagree at your peril.

Then the head judge begins to ask the competitors to change places in the group.  The one of the end is moved to the middle or next to the competitor in the middle.  Another competitor is moved out to the end.  After this is done, it is made clear to all the judges who the top five are and in what order they are supposed to finish.  The one in the middle is the best in the group, the ones next to her are next best and so forth.

The same thing happens with the next five and then five more until all the competitors have been prejudged.  All the judges have to do is follow the lead of the head judge and write down the scores accordingly.

So I would tell the woman who finished 12th on every scorecard that this happened because she was brought out in the third group of five and the head judge moved her to stand next to the competitor in the middle: the 2nd placing in the third group of five = 12th.  Simple as that.

Of course, when you are dealing with contests across the country at both the amateur and professional levels, there are a variety of different head judges and not all of them have things so carefully organized.  However, when this system is used there aren't really 9 or 11 judges score the contest – there is only one.  But until the NPC and IFBB decide to define what figure actually is and can describe what kind of physiques they are looking for in some more specific way, one system would seem to be as good as another.

Nonethless, you do end up with some bizarre placings when the head judge has overlooked a competitor of great quality (most often because she simply isn't isn't well known enough yet) and you see her standing in the "tail end" group that contains women who, however aesthetic and athletic looking, are obviously not suited to success in figure competition. Seeing a swan standing there among the ducks you'd think the judges would be embarrassed. But physique judges seem to have an endless capacity for rationalization which protects them from admitting that mistakes have been made.

[Coach is Back!]

As much as I know that I will be criticized again - I calculated PROS and CONS and decided to post this ANYWAY...
I would like to emphasize that I AM NOT TRYING to create the problem...instead I am trying to find a solution for everlasting problem we are all facing for numerous years. Subjectivity as a nature of judging IFBB events (bodybuilding, fitness and figure).
 
I know that many IFBB officials and athletes are reading this board so I am sure this will reach ALL THE PARTIES in no time...
 
Well, I am talking about SUBJECTIVITY as a nature of judging our bodybuilding shows...and while we can't measure, time or knockout anyone - we can certainly defeat our competitors IF somebody clarifies the judging criteria...and defines what is GOOD, BETTER...and/or THE BEST.

If competitors AND JUDGES would know what we all really want (we - as bodybuilding community) - maybe we could actually agree on something...that something being - judging!

After all competitors will know HOW TO PREPARE BETTER, judges would know how to judge, fans would be less angry or confused ...or rather shocked with the results and some winners would possibly be at least somewhat ashamed [ accepting somebody's else title (money, glory...etc)...and I would not face another suspension ...or be told to - shut up..
 
Anyway, for years now we are dealing with inconsistent results and waiting for a changes...and those changes never came...Actually - things are getting worse and certainly not better and that's why I think it is time to speak up.
 
Did you ever wonder how judges really judge the show?
 
Do you think they have some point system? Some percentages(?), certain things that they are looking for (?), certain things they penalize or award athletes for (?)...Real MEASURABLE criteria?
 
Simply - they don't!
 
Judgment is given purely on subjective opinion and that could be PERSONAL PREFERENCE of the judge who is entitled to his own subjective opinion...
 
 
Well, in my opinion - judging should consider:

 
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...as ONE ASPECT OF JUDGING
 
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", "HARDNESS", TIGHT SKIN, "SHREDDED-NESS"...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
 
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
 
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK (not leaving it up for imagination of others to THINK what certain physique could look like IF presented correctly...), MISTAKE FREE POSING (#1- many competitors forget to squeeze certain muscles...and more often than not - judges would just go with: "well, if Jay squeezed his legs on Friday during the prejudging - he would have looked better so I would give him this pose considering that I know what his legs and physique looks like IF he posed correctly, #2 - many competitors let their "pregnancy show"...and that's a no-no, #3 - also many fail to find THE BEST WAY to do certain poses...etc...etc...), STAGE PRESENCE (standing in line up PERFECTLY...AT ALL TIMES), HITTING EVERY POSE WITH CONFIDENCE AND AUTHORITY, CHOREOGRAPHING ROUTINES with perfect transitions, SHOWING PHYSIQUE TO EMPHASIZE THE STRENGTH OF SOMEONES PHYSIQUE (and not the weaknesses...Many fail to realize that POSING ROUND is not being judged for actual posing or movement...Fat, out of shape ballet artist or out of shape professional dancer should not win the posing round by virtue of his posing skills...Posing round is PHYSIQUE ROUND where athletes could/should show their strengths USING POSES OTHER THAN MANDATORIES that present their physiques in that "special light" bodybuilders want to be known for...So, aesthetic guy could emphasize beauty of his physique, aesthetic look, perfect shape, symmetry and balance by doing EXACT POSES to exemplify WHAT HIS ATTRIBUTES ARE...
Conditioned guy on another hand could present his shredded physique by doing poses to show his shredded muscles (or maybe hide cellulite?)...and muscular guy should do as many muscular posses...thick guy presenting his thickness, wide guy his width...V-tapered guy his extreme V-taper...etc...etc
 
If someone succeeds in presentation of his strengths THAN AND ONLY THAN we could say OK - he should have place higher as he is: THIS (aesthetic, balanced, symmetrical...) or THAT (conditioned, more muscular, bigger, thicker, wider...)...
But, many times fans go with picture of their favorite champion AS THEY REMEMBER HIM from before - while only shadow of that physique is being displayed on the stage at the moment - yet "shadow" gets the same amount of points as "sentimental judgment" or "paid dues" treatment from the judges that ALSO consider what once was or what could have been (if in shape)...
 
WE NEED TO START JUDGING PHYSIQUES ON THE DAY OF THE CONTEST REGARDLESS OF NAMES, PREVIOUS OUTINGS...ETC...POLITICS ...
 
I am in a hurry actually so maybe I am rushing this a bit...but I will get back to make some points...or rather - maybe WE CAN ALL START NEW THREAD ABOUT JUDGING - and NOT to argue with judges and federation...Not to criticize but rather to START WORKING ON HELPING OUR OFFICIALS FINDING THE BEST WAY TO JUDGE...
 
To take that "subjectivity OUT" or at least reduce it to minimum...so we (ALL OF US WHO LOVE SPORT OF BODYBUILDING, ATHLETES AS WELL AS FANS) could have clear idea WHY some guy managed to place ahead of others...
 
Judges should be able to explain WHY they saw Jay superior to OTHERS at 2007 Mr. Olympia...(just as one of numerous examples).
 
Did they saw him better in:
 
1- SHAPE, BALANCE, AESTHETICS, SYMMETRY, EXTREME V-TAPER, FLAT AND DEEP ABS, BEAUTY OF PHYSIQUE, HEALTHY SKIN...AND HEALTHY OVERALL APPEARANCE...department?
 
I don't think so...as I see many beating Jay in this aspect of judging.
 
 
2- CONDITIONING, MUSCULARITY, EXTREME LEAN LOOK, DRYNESS, SEPARATION, STRIATIONS, TIE-INS, "GRAINY-NESS", HARDNESS, TIGHT SKIN, SHREDDED-NESS...and other EXTREMES of similar nature...
But, here I would also consider muscle Glycogen storage - and FULLNESS as conditioning part of judging rather than MUSCLE MASS ASPECT of judging...
 
 
I don't think so - AGAIN...
 
 
 
3- MUSCLE MASS, THICKNESS, WIDTH, ROUND MUSCLE BELLIES (could be considered in aspect #1 as well...)...and other extremes of similar nature...
 
Maybe in this one? So this is "holly grail" of bodybuilding - BIGGER IS BETTER AND NOTHING ELSE MATTERS?
 
 
 
4- PRESENTATION, POSING, ABILITY TO SHOW PHYSIQUE THE WAY IT SUPPOSE TO LOOK
 
Again...NOT the case (in my book)...
 
 
So, let's help our judges...which will ultimately help our sport.
 
Give your point of view...and we could at least start SOLVING THE PROBLEM - very easily...

And let's keep it NICE and CIVIL..without unnecessary attacks...

Again - I am looking for SOLUTION and not the ARGUMENT... and I hope we all do?
 
 
 

Damn you write long posts. Meth?

[Milos_Sarcev]

John Hodgson
IFBB Pro

http://milossarcev.com/board/index.php?topic=6424.0

What is bodybuilding about.
« on: October 07, 2006, 02:35:51 PM »   

       
I just posted the following in a section about Jay Cutler pre contest. I only wrote it in relation to the fact that someone posted a remark refering to the short guys staying off stage to avoid getting trampled on and not getting their lunch money taken from them by the big guys??

I feel this deserves a topic of it's own. I have been a Pro now since 1999 and stand at only 5ft 4" so definately come under the bracket of SHORT/SMALL in the Pro world. There are sadly a lot of haters out there on various boards but hey thats the internet for you a lot a faceless, behind the screen people. I would rather say it open honestly and to peoples faces as those who know me know I do.
Anyway this post is about how can we drive things forward for all concerned, ATHLETES, JUDGES AND FANS as I love this sport despite recent events at the spanish GP which Milos knows all to well about. This is what my post was on the other topic:

I find it somewhat amazing when guys give us short guys a tough time. Hey judging is about the whole package and perhaps people should not be overwhelmed by size.
I am the first to admit that the big guys draw attention but then if you start to look closer you should overcome the first impressions and then really work hard at viewing the complete package. Bodybuilding as Bev Francis quoted on the 1992 Mr Olympia video when asked what are judges looking for stated the following:

"Bodybuilding is about building the complete physique, the complete package. Someone may have lesser bodyparts but it does not flow as opposed to someone with lesser bodyparts but the body flows much better overall, combined with good condition and hardness. So it's about having the complete physique."

Now if all things are equal then the final say has to be size dictates and you cannot argue with that, but thats if all is equal.

Has the above really been adhered to since this famous and very correct analysis of the judges job by Bev Francis.

Also Lee Labrada a hero and the person I modelled myself on for my inspiration made an unfortunate quote when he retired:

"I have out grown the sport and more to the point the sport has out grown me"

Now hold on here, Lee placed ahead of some real big guys and names and rightly so (Paul Dillet in his prime, Kevin Levrone, Shawn Ray etc), but it appears that since that quote it may have been taken on board literally by some, I only hope that we can go back to looking closely at the whole physique no matter the size. The only other way would be to have and under 200/210lbs and over category so that we can get the best of both worlds and give some hope across the competitive scene and maybe generate some more interest for competitors and the crowd.

Thats my take it would be interesting to see others and I speak from the stage side of things and I do give my all. ALso this is a post I  put up on my company site in the UK after the Spanish GP on my personal thoughts.

Hi all, well I was letting things settle before I gave you my account of the shows events. As you may have heard through the grape vine the judging could have been better, a lot better IMO and many others who competed, the show wasn't judged in a manner I and any athlete worth his/her salt in Bodybuilding would expect. I have been competing since 1993 and turned Pro in 1999 and have virtually enjoyed all the shows I have competed in

The Spainish show took things to another level and for me was simply unacceptable and was a massive slap in the face for many of the bodybuilders who turned up for this show, myself included. I think I speak for many (well I know I do as having spoken backstage with many) that the judging was farce. In the second round the muscularity round where you do your eight mandatory poses, only 10/12 athletes were compared out of a line up of nearly 30, yet they mangaed to place up to 17th ( I got placed 16th, certainly condition wasn't being rewarded but that’s not the issue here). How can the judges even place people without making ANY comparisons??? By this I mean Eddie Abbey was placed 10th yet never had one comparison. Not one UK bodybuilder was given any direct comparisons in the muscularity round, why??

I love this sport and have given my heart and sole, I turn up knowing I'm an underdog yet those who know me, know I bust my but to turn up in excellent shape and that is a trait I am respected for. Yet to be subjected to this type of judging made me very angry and upset, I wanted to cry, no seriously I was so close to breaking down it wasn't funny. All that prep, sacrifice, those who competed and those who follow the sport know what I mean and what bodybuilders put themselves through, denial, loneliness all the many other traits that make and separate bodybuilders apart from any other sport and society in general and for what, to be totally disregarded by a judging panel who I feel have a LOT of answers to give and explanation, to which I feel they will not be able to justify IMO, well you cannot justify not comparing athletes and then placing them how does that work???

I will be making my views know to the right people and hopefully this will be looked at. I will never ever compete in Spain again and I now only have faith really in the USA, UK and countries outside of the mainland European countries based on the events in Spain.

Milos Sarcev came backstage and saw how we were (various athletes backstage) and he also was very upset  and like many of us feels strongly that this has to be addressed. I was going to stay quiet but enough is enough, I give too much year in year out I have a right to express this opinion. I do sincerely love this sport as you know and it has been a big part of me and I have given so much and I also lost my wife (maybe not directly because of BB) but it won't of helped, whom I loved so much, it still hurts to this day.

I hope this gets addressed and changes implemented for the benefit and good of the sport for both athletes and judges. I don’t know if I could take this again and I believe other bodybuilders feel the same.

All that I want is to be treated and judged fairly, is this too much to ask.

As you can see this isn't about being b*tchy or a bad loser but raising a serious concern on both fronts. Its because I care, put my heart and sole into this sport that I feel on all fronts it needs to be looked at closely and I do believe many others both competitive athletes, judges and fans want as well.

[erics]

Effective judging - accountable judging - requires everyone to know the value of each criteria relative to each other. How much is size worth? What of shape compared with conditioning? And so on.

That way, when looking at the judges scorecars, athletes can see where they need to improve for their next competition and just as importantly why they place where they did. Maybe the athletes and the fans will still disagree with the placings but at least they would be able to see the rationale for the placing.