fat control when using insulin

[lesaucer]

on rxmuscle forums the mod on gear forum said: ''there is two quite old but rarely used drugs which even more effective for fat control when used with insulin. first is amrinon - phosphodiasterase 3 inhibitor (when PDE3 suppressed insulin unable to store any fat at all) and second is HCA.''  ... where can you get amrinon? otc or drug dealer? no results on google for that ... and is there a big difference between fat control on amrinon and hca? and have you guys ever used gh frags too for fat control before?

[Van_Bilderass]

It's not insulin per se that's making you fat. It's too many calories.

[Dr Loomis]

It's not insulin per se that's making you fat. It's too many calories.

Agree, I never increased bf on insulin unless I ate significantly more. Maybe its associated with that because people take in way more carbs than they need not to go hypo and end up with a surplus of calories.

[tbombz]

fat intake is what causes fat gain with insulin. you can eat basically unlimited carbs, as long as you are eating basically zero fat.

[Arnold jr]

fat intake is what causes fat gain with insulin. you can eat basically unlimited carbs, as long as you are eating basically zero fat.

I'm not trying to pick on you tonight but again, this just isn't true.

Probably 99% of the guys on this board, if they started eating carbs like Jay Cutler does in the off-season they'd get fatter than all out side.

[tbombz]

I'm not trying to pick on you tonight but again, this just isn't true.

Probably 99% of the guys on this board, if they started eating carbs like Jay Cutler does in the off-season they'd get fatter than all out side.

nah they wouldnt. the reason you hear guys say that carbs make them fat, and the reaosn why they believe it to be so, is because they dont do high carbs properly. either they are not watching their fat intake, they arent making surethey are consuming glucose based carbs and not fructose based carbs... something along those lines.

its basic metabolic knowledge that glucose very rarely ever goes to fat.

[Arnold jr]

nah they wouldnt. the reason you hear guys say that carbs make them fat, and the reaosn why they believe it to be so, is because they dont do high carbs properly. either they are not watching their fat intake, they arent making surethey are consuming glucose based carbs and not fructose based carbs... something along those lines.

its basic metabolic knowledge that glucose very rarely ever goes to fat.

I don't buy it. You take a regular bodybuilder, have him eat 800-1000g of carbs per day along with his high protein diet, give him zero fat or at least very close to it, have all his carbs come from the right carb sources and he'll get fat, insulin or no insulin. Excess calories is simply that, excess fat.

[Bobby]

I'm on the fence with this one...

1000g carbs is a shitload of carbs, and twice as much as i'm eating now (without slin) I noticed that with trace fat + omega3 i did not put on much fat, but when i started to include more fats recently the fat started coming on. I decrease it again now to no extra fat except omega3s... add slin and it's the same thing only you can eat even more carbs.

depending on size of bber and activity levels i do believe they can eat that much. But not jay cutler levels of carbs for someone that is 200lbs...obviously that would backfire...

say 230lb bber 2 workouts a day 1000g carbs, i believe that would work

[Dr Loomis]

Everyones different, but having been there done that I can agree with Arnold Jr 1000%

[Vet]

I'm not trying to pick on you tonight but again, this just isn't true.

Probably 99% of the guys on this board, if they started eating carbs like Jay Cutler does in the off-season they'd get fatter than all out side.

You are better off just not believing about 87% of what he posts about insulin or its effects on metabolism. 

Insulin will directly promote fat deposition through its effects on carbohydrate metabolism... it can also cause a localized fat deposition.  this is why you see diabetics develop "fat pads" in the region they inject insulin.  Unfortunately those fatty tissue accumulations can further inhibit insulin absorption, making them worse.   Thats why years ago diabetics were told to rotate insulin injection sites, to prevent this from happening. 

[Vet]

I don't buy it. You take a regular bodybuilder, have him eat 800-1000g of carbs per day along with his high protein diet, give him zero fat or at least very close to it, have all his carbs come from the right carb sources and he'll get fat, insulin or no insulin. Excess calories is simply that, excess fat.

fat is far more calorie dense than carbs.  so a relatively small amount of fat is more than twice the calories than the same number of grams of carbs...   
but that doesn't change the fact that excessive calories will be stored as fat. 

[Vet]

on rxmuscle forums the mod on gear forum said: ''there is two quite old but rarely used drugs which even more effective for fat control when used with insulin. first is amrinon - phosphodiasterase 3 inhibitor (when PDE3 suppressed insulin unable to store any fat at all) and second is HCA.''  ... where can you get amrinon? otc or drug dealer? no results on google for that ... and is there a big difference between fat control on amrinon and hca? and have you guys ever used gh frags too for fat control before?

amrinone is a positive ionotrophic cardiac drug--- meaning it increases cardiac muscle cell calcium inflow, causing hte heart to basically beat harder and faster.  i dont' think its available in the US, but I'd have to check to be certian.   Most of the literature I've seen on it is coming from Germany or from German studies done in African megavertebrates.  Be careful with this stuff.  It can have effects similar to dobutamine...

HCA is the stuff that I think used to be in the original HYDROXYCUT from Garcinia cambogia.   I don't know if its available over the counter or not.   Im pretty sure it used to be in various forms.    I seem to remember seeing it as pure hydroxycitric acid in a vitamin store about 10 years ago....  it was in a blue bottle.   I will tell you I took alot of HCA containing supplements through the years.   I dont' think any of them worked.   

[lesaucer]

amrinone is a positive ionotrophic cardiac drug--- meaning it increases cardiac muscle cell calcium inflow, causing hte heart to basically beat harder and faster.  i dont' think its available in the US, but I'd have to check to be certian.   Most of the literature I've seen on it is coming from Germany or from German studies done in African megavertebrates.  Be careful with this stuff.  It can have effects similar to dobutamine...

HCA is the stuff that I think used to be in the original HYDROXYCUT from Garcinia cambogia.   I don't know if its available over the counter or not.   Im pretty sure it used to be in various forms.    I seem to remember seeing it as pure hydroxycitric acid in a vitamin store about 10 years ago....  it was in a blue bottle.   I will tell you I took alot of HCA containing supplements through the years.   I dont' think any of them worked.   

THANK YOU...tbombz is wrong saying insulin dont store excess carbs as fat.. fuck amrinon no one know what is it. hydroxycut HCA?? i think you mean ephedrine... THATS whats up with hca:


Getting straight to the point, unless you are a moron and are eating fat during insulin use, or you have crappy insulin sensitivity, HCA is the second most effective fat gain inhibitor next to Clenbuterol (which is only more effective due to its' ridiculously long half life).
Hydroxy Citric Acid (HCA) is the main ingredient in Citrimax, and is a bargain in terms of its': relative effectiveness (when using insulin), cost (cheap, cheap, cheap), and availability. It works by inhibiting an enzyme called ATP citrate ly(s)ase (ACL), which basically converts ingested carbs to fat (which insulin promptly stores). This is normally NOT a big deal since ACL levels are normally low in most humans. However, insulin drastically increases ACL levels (which should make sense based on what you now know about insulin) accounting for most of the, responsible use, fat gain associated with insulin use. This is the most exciting find since the discovery of insulin as an anabolic! Using insulin and not gaining fat while gaining muscle? What a concept! Although I don't like to go into the details of use directly, I believe it is warranted here. 500-750mgs HCA should be taken with or within half an hour after the insulin shot.
They usually recommended 250mgs is ineffective in dealing with the drastic increase in ACL levels. The HCA is taken with the shot because both start to work on about one half hour, so the HCA can begin to be effective at the same time that insulin is trying to increase ACL levels.
This regimen (only 3X500mgs HCA) prevented fat gain during a day when I used 3 separate insulin shots! To make things even better there is a mild glycogen storage property associated with HCA use. Since ingested carbs cannot be converted to, or stored as, fat, they are generally stored (due to insulin) as glycogen in muscle giving the user a mild but noticeable pump (similar to the first day of creatine use). To end this portion of the list, I give HCA my highest recommendation as the number 1 supplement to use with insulin!

[Arnold jr]

fat is far more calorie dense than carbs.  so a relatively small amount of fat is more than twice the calories than the same number of grams of carbs...   
but that doesn't change the fact that excessive calories will be stored as fat. 

That was my point, excess calories be it from fat or carbs is still excess calories...agreed.

[Equilibrium]

nah they wouldnt. the reason you hear guys say that carbs make them fat, and the reaosn why they believe it to be so, is because they dont do high carbs properly. either they are not watching their fat intake, they arent making surethey are consuming glucose based carbs and not fructose based carbs... something along those lines.

its basic metabolic knowledge that glucose very rarely ever goes to fat.

Was it you who offered your prepping services in G&O? 

E...

[tbombz]

sometimes i feel if nobody does any real bodybuilding anymore... i prepfer chattign with legit competitive bodybuilders from the 90's, old school guys who follow old school methods...    if anybody actually dietied the way bodybuilders have always beent old to diet, high carb low fat...they would know that carbs dont make you fat unless your eating fat..    for a million reasons, both anecdotally true and also scientifcally.... arnold im not posting thiswith any disrespect to you brother... weve always been cool... however fools like dave palumbo have misinformed the masses into believes carbs are the enemy.... yes the can make you fat, but not without fat intake

[Arnold jr]

sometimes i feel if nobody does any real bodybuilding anymore... i prepfer chattign with legit competitive bodybuilders from the 90's, old school guys who follow old school methods...    if anybody actually dietied the way bodybuilders have always beent old to diet, high carb low fat...they would know that carbs dont make you fat unless your eating fat..    for a million reasons, both anecdotally true and also scientifcally.... arnold im not posting thiswith any disrespect to you brother... weve always been cool... however fools like dave palumbo have misinformed the masses into believes carbs are the enemy.... yes the can make you fat, but not without fat intake

For starters, Dave is not an anti carb guy...people seem to make this assumption a lot since he has become a bit of a keto diet guy for contest prep.

In regards to your comment about you won't get fat eating carbs unless you eat fats...that's saying that you can eat as much as you want and you won't get fat. No human on earth can utilize an infinite number of calories, even if they are only proteins and carbs, and even if they're using hormones.

If someone is taking in 9,000 calories per day, running a massive stack including insulin, they're managing to burn and utilize 5,500 calories per day and they are only eating proteins and carbs...they're on a zero fat diet...there's still 3,500 calories per day not being used in any way. Those calories have to go somewhere, you're not going to simply crap them out or have them disappear by osmosis. They're going to store as body fat...there just isn't any way around that.

[tbombz]

For starters, Dave is not an anti carb guy...people seem to make this assumption a lot since he has become a bit of a keto diet guy for contest prep.

In regards to your comment about you won't get fat eating carbs unless you eat fats...that's saying that you can eat as much as you want and you won't get fat. No human on earth can utilize an infinite number of calories, even if they are only proteins and carbs, and even if they're using hormones.

If someone is taking in 9,000 calories per day, running a massive stack including insulin, they're managing to burn and utilize 5,500 calories per day and they are only eating proteins and carbs...they're on a zero fat diet...there's still 3,500 calories per day not being used in any way. Those calories have to go somewhere, you're not going to simply crap them out or have them disappear by osmosis. They're going to store as body fat...there just isn't any way around that.

yes there is a possible scenario where carbs cna go to fat, but its very unlikely and nobody eats 9000 calories from carbs alone without fats included.

even 1000 grams of carbs in one day is fine for most people, as long as fat is very low. thats only 4000 calories. most bodybu8ilders will have a daily energy expenditure around 3500 or more, plus thermic effect of their protein, plus burn off effect of carbs, plus glyocgen proting effect of insulin,...etc etc etc... i could cite 5 million different pathways through wich fat gain islimited when on a low fat diet and high carbs...


fat gain is caused mainly (about 99% of all fat gain) by mixing fats and carbs in the diet.

[Luv2Hurt]

sometimes i feel if nobody does any real bodybuilding anymore... i prepfer chattign with legit competitive bodybuilders from the 90's, old school guys who follow old school methods...    if anybody actually dietied the way bodybuilders have always beent old to diet, high carb low fat...they would know that carbs dont make you fat unless your eating fat..    for a million reasons, both anecdotally true and also scientifcally.... arnold im not posting thiswith any disrespect to you brother... weve always been cool... however fools like dave palumbo have misinformed the masses into believes carbs are the enemy.... yes the can make you fat, but not without fat intake

Funny you say this, I competed in BB in the early 90's and yes the diet thing then was high carbs, low fat.  looking at the guys from that era also shows most did not achieve the dry, hard, grainy look of modern day BB.  I will say that my conditioning on those diets was not the best, kind of watery and not as lean as would have liked.  Now this could have been due to other factors or mistakes i made.  But overall i never felt like i had thin skin or was very lean on those diets.  With low carb diets my conditioning has improved.

Will agree though that too long on very low carbs I will start to drop muscle mass and fullness, so it appears to be a balancing act.  I will now cycle carbs a couple/few days low carbs followed by a day of re feeding.  This has helped hold size on a calorie restricted diet.  very low carbs will get you hard and dry fast but it may cost you some size.  Just my experiences....so far.

[Van_Bilderass]

While tbombz is right that de-novo lipogenesis rarely occurs in humans, it still is basically like so that if you exceed your energy expenditure in calories you will store the rest as fat. It's a long debate to go into all the details but one interesting thing is that one way to induce de-novo lipogenesis is to eat very low fats! Extremely high carbs is another. Very high carbs and very low fats = de-novo lipogenesis. And whatever fat you eat when eating high carbs, even if not mixing it with the carbs, will be stored since there is no need to burn it for energy. Of course there will be no lipolysis occurring either.

If someone is taking in 9,000 calories per day, running a massive stack including insulin, they're managing to burn and utilize 5,500 calories per day and they are only eating proteins and carbs...they're on a zero fat diet...there's still 3,500 calories per day not being used in any way. Those calories have to go somewhere, you're not going to simply crap them out or have them disappear by osmosis. They're going to store as body fat...there just isn't any way around that.

Yup.

[Bobby]

While tbombz is right that de-novo lipogenesis rarely occurs in humans, it still is basically like so that if you exceed your energy expenditure in calories you will store the rest as fat. It's a long debate to go into all the details but one interesting thing is that one way to induce de-novo lipogenesis is to eat very low fats! Extremely high carbs is another. Very high carbs and very low fats = de-novo lipogenesis. And whatever fat you eat when eating high carbs, even if not mixing it with the carbs, will be stored since there is no need to burn it for energy. Of course there will be no lipolysis occurring either.

Yup.

Interesting!

So if you eat 6 meals a day and lets say 500 carbs in the first 5 meals of the day and eat protein and some healthy fats in the 6th meal. Those fats will be stored?

because carbs is a superior energy source the fats make you fat? just like carbs make you fat on a keto diet....

[Van_Bilderass]

Interesting!

So if you eat 6 meals a day and lets say 500 carbs in the first 5 meals of the day and eat protein and some healthy fats in the 6th meal. Those fats will be stored?

because carbs is a superior energy source the fats make you fat? just like carbs make you fat on a keto diet....

If you eat a ton of carbs at one sitting and then eat a fat/protein meal 2 hours later you better believe your insulin will still be elevated from the carbs. Plus if you're in a big calorie surplus the body knows this even if it's been longer since your last meal.

I don't really believe in the nutrient combining/nutrient timing theory in general, where you can partition the nutrients to where you want them to go. In some cases it's a good idea, like eating carbs around workouts preferentially, with protein of course. But in general I don't believe in carb-cut off's etc. If you're in a big surplus you're getting fat even if you don't eat carbs after 6 PM of whatever. And you can get lean by eating sugar at bedtime if you're in a deficit. Never combining carbs with fat doesn't do much as far as positive partitioning either.

[Bobby]

If you eat a ton of carbs at one sitting and then eat a fat/protein meal 2 hours later you better believe your insulin will still be elevated from the carbs. Plus if you're in a big calorie surplus the body knows this even if it's been longer since your last meal.

I don't really believe in the nutrient combining/nutrient timing theory in general, where you can partition the nutrients to where you want them to go. In some cases it's a good idea, like eating carbs around workouts preferentially, with protein of course. But in general I don't believe in carb-cut off's etc. If you're in a big surplus you're getting fat even if you don't eat carbs after 6 PM of whatever. And you can get lean by eating sugar at bedtime if you're in a deficit. Never combining carbs with fat doesn't do much as far as positive partitioning either.

like i said earlier, i was experiencing fat gains when i added healthy fats to the last meal. i guess this explains it.

[lesaucer]

For starters, Dave is not an anti carb guy...people seem to make this assumption a lot since he has become a bit of a keto diet guy for contest prep.

In regards to your comment about you won't get fat eating carbs unless you eat fats...that's saying that you can eat as much as you want and you won't get fat. No human on earth can utilize an infinite number of calories, even if they are only proteins and carbs, and even if they're using hormones.

If someone is taking in 9,000 calories per day, running a massive stack including insulin, they're managing to burn and utilize 5,500 calories per day and they are only eating proteins and carbs...they're on a zero fat diet...there's still 3,500 calories per day not being used in any way. Those calories have to go somewhere, you're not going to simply crap them out or have them disappear by osmosis. They're going to store as body fat...there just isn't any way around that.

just look at trey brewer before, he was eating extreme amounts of calories thinking he would get bigger muscle.. only difference it did for him when going from 4-5kcal to like 8k+,, the extra carbs/prot/cal did not get him bigger muscle, it made him FAT. now tbombz sure you can say maybe he was eating to much fat with his diet but i dont think someone wanting to be pro would fuck up his diet by eating lards..
even if you're on tons of gear your body still cannot use everything and will store big surplus calories as fat,,it will use way more than natural but not unlimited like tbombz is saying...... at least thats what im thinking..

 

[Arnold jr]

just look at trey brewer before, he was eating extreme amounts of calories thinking he would get bigger muscle.. only difference it did for him when going from 4-5kcal to like 8k+,, the extra carbs/prot/cal did not get him bigger muscle, it made him FAT. now tbombz sure you can say maybe he was eating to much fat with his diet but i dont think someone wanting to be pro would fuck up his diet by eating lards..
even if you're on tons of gear your body still cannot use everything and will store big surplus calories as fat,,it will use way more than natural but not unlimited like tbombz is saying...... at least thats what im thinking..

 

Very true. The most food I ever ate, when I was really trying to bulk up as much as I could, I ate a diet of nothing but carbs and proteins, that was the fattest I ever got. The bulk of my diet consisted of:

egg whites
whey protein, mixed with milk
tuna fish
chicken
oats
rice
sweet potatoes
whole wheat bread
...and 1tbsp of peanut butter each night with my shake before bed.

I ate very little red meat...maybe 1 steak per wk if that and nothing with added fats, no junk food, was running a good cycle of test and deca and GH.

I got pretty strong eating like this and packed on a ton of size. I was eating appx 6,000 calories per day, weighed almost 240. My BF went up too, way beyond what is acceptable IMO. I have no idea what the percentage of fat was, never checked it but I didn't have to, I could look in the mirror and tell I had gotten too fat.