Could Jay Cutler have beat Dorian Yates?

[Mussolini]

No, you're wrong, sorry. Ronnie was four years away from his peak when Dorian competed against him. Look at all the photos Hulkster is using, the majority of them are from 2001. Peak Ronnie never competed against peak Doz, THAT's my point.

Ronnie lost to Fux in 1997, would anyone in their right mind claim Fux is the better bodybuilder? Ronnie lost to a guy named Thierry Pastel in 1994, which as far as I can tell was their only meeting, was HE better than Ronnie?

Ronnie peaked in one of three places depending on your personal preference, 1999 Olympia, 2001 Arnold, 2003 Olympia. None of these were near a prime Dorian. I used an exaggerated example to more clearly illustrate the point.

Was Dorian better than Ronnie in 1997? I don't really believe that, I think at that point Doz was riding on momentum, much like Ron did in 2002 and 2004.

Thus, we have to compare peaks, so 1993 Dorian and one of the above Ronnie years, I'll take the 2001 AC. Out of those two, Ronnie takes it. He just does and it's seriously foolish to deny it. Even a lot of Ironagers agree that Ronnie came with one of the best physiques ever displayed that day.

"Out of those two, Ronnie takes it. He just does and it's seriously foolish to deny it."

Great argument,

[Hulkster]

Yet post crap shots of Doz.

No, many shots are from the 1993 Olympia, his all-time best shape (see the shots of his midsection) and this shot:




Dorian just doesn't have the shape or vascularity to compete at Ronnie's level.

[Camel Jockey]

Better arms ? hardly better biceps yes , not triceps or forearms , and Coleman has better shape? again in some muscles he does and others he doesn't and Yates has much better balance between muscles and his upper and lower body , I'm sorry but Coleman's massive ass and weak calves hurt any pose from the back , Coleman has small calves overdeveloped quads just poor balance through out his phsyique and I like how you say calves and forearms don't win shows apparently no calves and forearms wins shows , because Coleman gets a buy.

Calves can be seen in every pose from front to back to side to side , you really can't hide poor calves.

Hardly better biceps? lol Dorian's biceps had shitty peak, they sucked. We all know he showed up with no bicep and still won.
If you're going to argue against poor calves then I'll just point out Yates' poor right bicep.
I don't give a damn about calves, not everyone can have great calves.

[Gord]

I find the NarcissisticDeity v Hulkster's never ending debate far more interesting than the actual Dorian v Ronnie comparison.  These guys have far more staying power, tenacity and stamina than either Dozzer or Ronnie could ever hope to muster. 

[Palpatine Q]

"Out of those two, Ronnie takes it. He just does and it's seriously foolish to deny it."

Great argument,

No it is just the truth. anybody with working eyeballs can see it. I honestly don't know what the f**k you people are seeing that think Dorian is superior. Let me say that I think Dorian was an awesome bodybuilder, One of the best ever, but Ronnie IS the best ever. A year before Dorian retired he was asked who he thought was his biggest threat and his reply was "Ronnie coleman....he's a freak. The man has muscle just hanging off his body and he's only getting better." That was Doz's response BEFORE he retired. I know, I know, Narcissistic Deity....Dorian had better EARS and THUMBS

[sculpture]

No, many shots are from the 1993 Olympia, his all-time best shape (see the shots of his midsection) and this shot:




Dorian just doesn't have the shape or vascularity to compete at Ronnie's level.

Yeah this settles it in my mind. Even though it is just one shot it highlights quite nicley why ronnie is leagues above doz - namely  sheer muscle mass, shape, seperation, vascularity and equal conditioning. Dorian is great and he was no doubt dealt the genetic badhand and has made the most of it more than most but ronnie is just on another level.

[Palpatine Q]

Hulk you post the same pics over and over. Yet post crap shots of Doz. Ya Ronnie is impressive but also some of those pics are just that really good pics which make him look alot better than he  was. If you watch the videos from those contests he is not as impressive as in those pics ( He is impressive yes... But not like on those shots ) And yes you can see his gut Evan then.

whos better? set them up in the same time frame from starting points same drugs same training and yates is better imo.

  I was sitting in the 5th row behind the judges when ronnie won his first O and he was just as impressive in person as he was in the pics.

As for your second,even stupider point, only two years of age separate them. They have been training and using the same drugs in the same era. It's not like comparing a guy from the's 70's to a modern day bodybuilder, they are both modern day bodybuilders.

[Mussolini]

No, many shots are from the 1993 Olympia, his all-time best shape (see the shots of his midsection) and this shot:




Dorian just doesn't have the shape or vascularity to compete at Ronnie's level.

Since when is Vascularity a criteria which the competitors are judged on???

Just look at the amazing detail in Rons Legs . Doeians muscle quality is far better everywhere, especially in the thighs

[NarcissisticDeity]

No, many shots are from the 1993 Olympia, his all-time best shape (see the shots of his midsection) and this shot:




Dorian just doesn't have the shape or vascularity to compete at Ronnie's level.

You make me laugh ..................no seriously , he doesn't have the shape or vasculartity lol you find new things to cling to all the time , Ronnie has flaws Yates does not its that simple , weak calves , they are weak because they lack development , shape & size and proportion in relation to his quads , his giant overdeveloped glutes hurts his back and side poses , Coleman has poor balance through out his physique this is debateable its obvious .

And again with Coleman has better shape , in some muscles I would agree but not in all , Coleman does not beat Yates in calf shape , glute shape , ab shape , triceps , forearm shape , etc ..etc.

You say Yates didn't have the vascularity or shape to compete on Ronnies level , I say Ronnie doesn't have the balance , muscle proportion and completness front to back top to bottom to compete on Yates level , and Yates beat the best at thier best , men who were bigger , wider and had more shape , who has Ronnie beaten? a sub-par Flex in 98 , Yates was a winner right out the bat , beat Lee Haney in the musculairty round in his first Mr Olympia , and where was Coleman at his first Mr Olympia ? last place , Yates beat them all , Coleman included and his superior balance & completness coupled with his size , shape , conditioning , posing would have zero problem beat any version of Ronnie Coleman with ease.

[sculpture]

Tell me you not serious. Better glute shape? Damn, youre gayer than i thought. Speaking of clinging, hows about ronnies "small forearms and traps" lol

[LyricTenor]

lol sculpture, get out of middle school and grow up.

[Mussolini]

Hulkster is scrapping the bottom of the barrel when he has to mention "ronnie has superior vascularity", something competitor are not even marked on. maney believe excessive vascularity detracts from the physique.


ND said it perfectly that Yates faced far better competition.

Ronnie of today would have trouble beating Nasser, Levrone, Dillet ect of the mid 90's

[Hulkster]

Just look at the amazing detail in Rons Legs . Doeians muscle quality is far better everywhere, especially in the thighs 
 
 
 

ronnie is actually not flexing his quads in that pic. Check out any pics from the same contest (99 Olympia) and you will see that his quads were amazing.

[Mussolini]

ronnie is actually not flexing his quads in that pic. Check out any pics from the same contest (99 Olympia) and you will see that his quads were amazing.

but i suppose dorian is flexing his quads in the same pose??

[Hulkster]

but i suppose dorian is flexing his quads in the same pose??

No, but Dorian's quads are famous for being not so great:



especially compared to Ronnies:


hell, this is the 2004 Ronnie here, and he looks better in this shot than practically any that I have ever seen of Dorian, except for his crazy rear lat and lower back shots..

[NarcissisticDeity]

Dorian's quads were weak now? lol they were FAMOUS for being not so great? , well in you mean great as in mismatched with calves and the upper body I guess you're right    Yates quads were excellent , his quads matched his calves and they showed excellent separation , with decent upper separation , great size especially in relation to his other muscles , you keep sinking lower & lower Hulkster , I would say Coleman edges Yates out in quads but to say his wern't so great is just nonsense.

[hench]

Ronnies quads are bigger, not better.

[sculpture]

Ronnies quads are bigger and in this instance better. But one thing that is rarely remarked is the development of yates thigh rods. They were the most prominent around. i can only think of one pro today with equivalent development - cormier. If you watch the mr O vids during the yates era he would tense his quads while angled outwards to let the crowd know!

[bbfan1]

I think any pro BB could agree that Ronnie blows Dorian away.

There really is no comparison with both of them at their respective bests.

[Palpatine Q]

I think any pro BB could agree that Ronnie blows Dorian away.

There really is no comparison with both of them at their respective bests.

I agree.

It is really quite simple.  Ronnie carries more muscle on a superior frame. People can dissect the s**t out of them but it boils down to that.

[NarcissisticDeity]

I agree.

It is really quite simple.  Ronnie carries more muscle on a superior frame. People can dissect the s**t out of them but it boils down to that.

A superior frame? obviously you put zero thought into that statement , Coleman does NOT have a superior frame , Yates has the better structure with less flaws , at thier respective bests the about the same ammount of size.

Yates = much better muscle proportion , muscle balance , all of his muscles are balance and fit together perfectly in relation to each other

[Palpatine Q]

 Yes... superior frame,nitwit.  As in better insertions, smaller joints, narrower hips,wider clavicles you know.... A SUPERIOR FRAME. Thw way you go on about Doz's proportion and balance you would think he had Flex's frame when it's obvious Dorian wasn't blessed with insane genetics. He had very good genetics but not like Ronnie was blessed. And that is the difference between them. They are both dedicated pro's who developed themselves to their absolute limit but ron's limit is above Dorian's. As far as balance goes, Ronnie has two working biceps to Dorian's one. and let's not forget the torn tricep either. The guy won the Olympia contest in his last year with one good arm, amazing.

[hench]

Yes... superior frame,nitwit.  As in better insertions, smaller joints, narrower hips,wider clavicles you know.... A SUPERIOR FRAME. Thw way you go on about Doz's proportion and balance you would think he had Flex's frame when it's obvious Dorian wasn't blessed with insane genetics. He had very good genetics but not like Ronnie was blessed. And that is the difference between them. They are both dedicated pro's who developed themselves to their absolute limit but ron's limit is above Dorian's

Groink, Ronnie is naturally very narrow and has big joints, even in 98 possibly his best shape his knees jutted out big time. It's only since his quads got ridiculously huge that it disguised this.
His delts give him his apparantly superior shoulder width, his traps are big from top to bottom but very narrow and pinched looking in the relaxed pose and from the rear.

[Palpatine Q]

Groink, Ronnie is naturally very narrow and has big joints, even in 98 possibly his best shape his knees jutted out big time. It's only since his quads got ridiculously huge that it disguised this.
His delts give him his apparantly superior shoulder width, his traps are big from top to bottom but very narrow and pinched looking in the relaxed pose and from the rear.

That's impossible      I am never wrong

[Hulkster]

Just because Dorian's quads have good thigh rods and therefore look good from the SIDE does NOT mean that they look good from the FRONT.

so, yes, they are famous for being not so great:


his quads don't look that great from the front, which is the angle in which all bodybuilders show them the most frequently. 

On the other hand, Ronnie's quads look great from the front:


at least in his pre-gut condition.

And besides, Ronnie's thigh rods were better than Dorian's anyway: