A Cool Dorian Video

[NarcissisticDeity]

Okay fair enough, but now you've added conditioning to the things we reckon Dillet was speaking about on Ronnie doesn't that kinda mean that Dillet basically said Ronnie set a new standard in conditioning as well as size? Cos wouldn't that kinda mean he surpassed Yates, since we've ascertained in past posts that Ronnie has Dorian on aesthetics?! I don't even necessarily agree Ronnie had better conditioning, just sort of curious as to why you brought that up.

I think after 2002 a lot of people though Ronnie was very beatable. I guess Gunter proved them right. People stopped saying it after 2003.

It's mainly the size , when everyone mentions 2003 it's always comes back to how big he was , he freaky he was on how massive he was and he did have pretty good conditioning for that size

And he technically surpassed Dorian in the size & conditioning but his conditioning in this contest wasn't on Yates level anyway maybe in 1998/2001 but not 2003 but Dorian never competed at that weight and according to Kevin Horton who's seen him at 285 pounds his conditioning at that weight was unmatched even to this day

Kevin Horoton GetBig Dec 30th

The photo is technically terrible, fortunately the physique is awesome.
I'd agree with Kris about Dorian showing up on stage how he looked a few weeks out. There are some shots of him at around 280 - 285 shredded. That conditioning has not been surpassed.


Dorian could have competed at much higher weights if he wanted to but never did

[Immortal_Technique]

Well the answer to your question is simple...no he shouldn't of beaten Dorian in 1994, the fact is or was Dorian has a superior skeletal structure than Shawn...and 99% of the others back then, (key word being skeletal structure not Genetics) Shawn was in Fantastic shape in 1994 however nothing could change the fact that his legs were quiet short in relation to the Total balance of his upper-body and all round structure, Nasser was the same, Both Lee Haney and Dorian Yates had Superior Skeletal Structures than both those BB greats, and this is what alot of people don't understand about both Haney and Yates...the mandatory poses like Front relaxed...side relaxed....turn to the rear relax...these are the FIRST impressions Judges get of the people in question...They are assessing the Skeletal structure and BALANCE of the Physique....not whos got better arms, quads, chest, then things like conditioning, muscle flow etc etc come into play.

Until people learn to assess these points on balance, and structure, and then other factors like shape,conditioning, etc come AFTER the first 2 points mentioned...well this is the reason for the non stop hes better than him posts.

Who had better skeletal structure when Momo Benaziza beat Dorian? When Dorian's back got bigger did his skeletal structure improve?! Is that why he beat Benaziza after that?!

[NarcissisticDeity]

Immortal_Technique, you're wasting your time trying to reason with the idiot ND. He argues we're putting words in Ronnie's mouth when we use the quote saying the judges favor the current Mr. Olympia but then claims Paul Dillet was only talking about size in the quote about Ronnie setting new standards.

and yes, Paul used the plural form "standards" but let ND think Paul was only referring to size.

You're infamous for trying to speak for others , absolutely infamous for drawing your own conclusions and playing with words YOU my dim witted friend should keep very quiet

What standard did he set? he was 287 pounds on contest condition which NO other Mr Olympia before him was , no one with any intelligence thinks 2003 was his best overall showing so it wasn't because he presented his peak physique it's because of the amount of size especially over the previous year.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Who had better skeletal structure when Momo Benaziza beat Dorian? When Dorian's back got bigger did his skeletal structure improve?! Is that why he beat Benaziza after that?!

You're omitting the other criteria , Momo carried more muscular bulk ( relative to his frame than Dorian , when he beat a 228 pound Dorian in his first pro show ) Momo had awesome conditioning as well and he was a season vet , with all things considered Momo beat him fair & square .

Dorian added some need bulk improved his back ( which was great to begin with ) and still maintained his great conditioning and beat them all

[NarcissisticDeity]

Great common sense points however i don,t believe a few of the others are getting it ND, you are correct about the "symmetry" round and the breakdown of actually what "symmetry" is and how its judged in BB circles.

None of these guys get it which is how they come to their wacky conclusions , because they don't even know how contests are judged which is why they're scratching their heads and crying foul when Dorian wins.

[johnny1]

Who had better skeletal structure when Momo Benaziza beat Dorian? When Dorian's back got bigger did his skeletal structure improve?! Is that why he beat Benaziza after that?!

I think you already know the answer to that question, however il answer anyway, Dorian's forte was and always was his CONSISTENT conditioning...the 1 thing 98% of the others top guys back then missed (momo included) if you show up one day looking awesome with conditioning and win....obviously YOU have set the Bar not only for yourself but the others...so the next time you come in looking not as Conditioned as before and holding alittle water...the judges say "hes outta shape"

Yes Doria'ns back improved from 1990 to 1991....that was the 1 point that was raised after he lost to momo if you want to make direct comparisons between momo and Yates, yates muscular bulk and his conditioning in 1991 was on par with his 1990 NOC showing even though Dorian was several lbs heavier etc,etc

You know as well as i do your skeletal structure is there...that doesn't change, what does change is the condition of your physique from show to show....Dorian was more Consistent for the standard he set for himself and the others, he obviously did it better than the others... History shows this to be true 6 Times in a row.

[NarcissisticDeity]

I think you already know the answer to that question, however il answer anyway, Dorian's forte was and always was his CONSISTENT conditioning...the 1 thing 98% of the others top guys back then missed (momo included) if you show up one day looking awesome with conditioning and win....obviously YOU have set the Bar not only for yourself but the others...so the next time you come in looking not as Conditioned as before and holding alittle water...the judges say "hes outta shape"

Yes Doria'ns back improved from 1990 to 1991....that was the 1 point that was raised after he lost to momo if you want to make direct comparisons between momo and Yates, yates muscular bulk and his conditioning in 1991 was on par with his 1990 NOC showing even though Dorian was several lbs heavier etc,etc

You know as well as i do your skeletal structure is there...that doesn't change, what does change is the condition of your physique from show to show....Dorian was more Consistent for the standard he set for himself and the others, he obviously did it better than the others... History shows this to be true 6 Times in a row.

Spot-on !

[Hulkster]

meltdown

You're a liar and you knowingly posted photoshopped pics and made up quotes.

wow, what a great rebuttal..
 

I have NEVER made up quotes. ever.

you know the pics and vids were unaltered, I proved that and you know it. so did Kevin, hence why he disappeared from that thread upon seeing the proof.

and it eats you up inside..

[Shockwave]

wow, what a great rebuttal..
 

I have NEVER made up quotes. ever. you know the pics and vids were unaltered, I proved that and you know it. so did Kevin, hence why he disappeared from that thread upon seeing the proof.

and it eats you up inside..

Thats a fucking lie and you know it.. or maybe you don't, and you truely do believe all the bullshit that comes out of your mouth because youre mentally ill.
What about that quote from Shawn Ray, that you seem unable to post? Hmm?

[Hulkster]

the quote is right there in Flex.

look it up if you still have the mag. I do not anymore. but anyone with it can scan it and shut you idiots up forever.

shawn referred to dorian as 'bigger but not better' at the 93 olympia.

an obvious reference to the fact that dorian was not as sharp as he was in 92, where his abs and pecs were at their sharpest. and his waist had not had balloned up to its 93+ size..

I don't know whats worse - you guys trying to deny the pics and vids or trying to deny the quotes printed in the magazines.

either way, its always same with you:

reality shoots down our argument for dorian being better, so lets try and insist that the pics vids and quotes are not real..

 

[Royal Lion]

Uh, Hulkster, tell me you are not asserting that 93 wasn't Dorian's most dominant win, and arguably the most dominant Mr. O win ever...

[Shockwave]

the quote is right there in Flex.

look it up if you still have the mag. I do not anymore. but anyone with it can scan it and shut you idiots up forever.

shawn referred to dorian as 'bigger but not better' at the 93 olympia.

an obvious reference to the fact that dorian was not as sharp as he was in 92, where his abs and pecs were at their sharpest. and his waist had not had balloned up to its 93+ size..

I don't know whats worse - you guys trying to deny the pics and vids or trying to deny the quotes printed in the magazines.

either way, its always same with you:

reality shoots down our argument for dorian being better, so lets try and insist that the pics vids and quotes are not real..

 

lol.
Thats not what you said originally. And then ND came out and embarrassed you for making up quotes.
Genius... Kevin Horton came on here and embarrassed you by pointing out you were using sharpened images and screencaps. LOL! Trying to pass off an opinion as fact, is not "reality", thats called "fantasy" there friend.

[Royal Lion]

Lol, of course Shawn Ray said "bigger isn't better"....he competed at like 205. 

[James28]

the quote is right there in Flex.

look it up if you still have the mag. I do not anymore. but anyone with it can scan it and shut you idiots up forever.

shawn referred to dorian as 'bigger but not better' at the 93 olympia.

Using 'proof' by quoting a known crybaby that was always too small to win? You're pretending Dorian wasn't in awesome winning shape in '93?

[NarcissisticDeity]

the quote is right there in Flex.

look it up if you still have the mag. I do not anymore. but anyone with it can scan it and shut you idiots up forever.

shawn referred to dorian as 'bigger but not better' at the 93 olympia.

an obvious reference to the fact that dorian was not as sharp as he was in 92, where his abs and pecs were at their sharpest. and his waist had not had balloned up to its 93+ size..

I don't know whats worse - you guys trying to deny the pics and vids or trying to deny the quotes printed in the magazines.

either way, its always same with you:

reality shoots down our argument for dorian being better, so lets try and insist that the pics vids and quotes are not real..

 

Uh-oh someone is trying to lie his way out of looking really fucking stupid  you're to fucking stupid to believe you honestly are ...this is your original quote

Hulkster GetBig January 18th

Shawn Ray mentions dorian's 93 loss of hardess in the Flex mag review of the contest...and like ND loves to say, he was there!

Shawn mentions Dorian's loss of hardness? your quote ...you committed to this

Shawn's original quote posted verbatim from Flex

Flex Magazine January 1994 , page 101 quote Shawn Ray

" Me and Dorian are like apples and oranges : There's absolutely no similarity between our physiques. What we have here is a revamped , ( continued on page 102 ) new-attitude Shawn Ray agaisnt a Dorian Yates who is bigger , which doesn't necessarily mean better! "


In quieter moments , Yates confides that the recation to his win ( 1992 ) by some sections of the bodybuilding community vexed him. Many wrote his off as a one-time Mr. Olympia. Proof of his simmering irritation was provided by a poster that adorned his gym in Birmingham , England. The poster's inscription read: " 1993 Mr Olympia , Atlanta. To all the disbelievers , kiss my ass! "

Yates may not have been thinking about his rivals , but the reverse was certainly not true. The leading contenders had heard the rumors of an unbelievable Yates guest-posing in New York in July , and several of then ( including Paul Dillett and Flex Wheeler ) had a pre-Olympia sight of the photos of the 269-pound Yates that appeared in the December issue of Flex.

At Thursday's press conference , there seemed to be a general mood of fatalism - unless Yates had inexplicably screwed up in the last couple of weeks , the 1993 Mr. Olympia contest was for second place.


Hey wait a minute absolutely NO WHERE does Shawn mention ' Dorian's loss of hardness ' he claimed ( wrongly ) that just because Dorian is bigger ( than him ) that he's not better .

You're a liar , and that's what happens when you lie stupid you can't keep track of your bullshit , Dorian never lost any hardness from 1992 to 1993 ..you made that up and I called you out on it and embarrassed you.

Kevin Horton exposed you for your photoshopped pics he was smart enough to not go tit-for-tat with a fucking idiot like you , he make you look like the moron you are and moved on. your shits old , you're pathetic with your constant bashing , hi-jacking and lying , do us all a favor and pick up a book on the subject do some reading this way you wont get constantly exposed for the moron you are.

[NarcissisticDeity]

Lol, of course Shawn Ray said "bigger isn't better"....he competed at like 205. 

Hulkster has comprehension issues , he can't grasp anything which is why he also thinks Ronnie 1999 has more detailed calves than Dorian ever did. 

[Mr Nobody]

Uh, Hulkster, tell me you are not asserting that 93 wasn't Dorian's most dominant win, and arguably the most dominant Mr. O win ever...

X2 = Dorian crushed everyone in 93 his best year, everyone else should of stayed home.

[jprc10]

no, they are not selective pics.

they are representative pics. good pics of both bodybuilders in similar poses under similar conditions, like I always post.

just because they tend to show ronnie is better doesn't make them wrong to use.

it just means that they are an excellent reprentation of how both looked.

the fact that dorian gets crushed is just a consequence of ronnie betting better. its that simple.

its not my fault.

but it does drive you nuthuggers crazy. as it should. your hero was not as good and it shows all the time. and you hate that.

First off I would say that the conditions of the pictures taken are not the same, so they are not an accurate comparison. Just think that both pictures have been taken at a different time and place, that they have a different lighting and that they are at different angles shows they are not  good for comparison. They can give a slight idea of a comparison, but its far from accurate.
Secondly, Dorian is not my "hero". I admire both Dorian and Ronnie, but here I see ND making good arguments and explaining how Dorian would beat Ronnie. Yet, you can't do the opposite and just post your pictures.

[jprc10]

He can't , he wont and never could.

He argued Ronnie has better conditioning in 1999 a year Ronnie specifically said wasn't his best and 1998 was because his conditioning was spot-on he dismissed Ronnie as a liar , he lies about everything

He mistakenly claimed Ronnie has better balance & proportion than Dorian , when Dorian was asked to speak on the subject he said specifically he was better balanced than Ronnie and had better conditioning and if anyone would know he would because he's an IFBB judge

I don't think he's tried Ronnie was better at posing & presentation but I wouldn't put it past his stupidity , neither is Lee Labrada at posing but it's clear Dorian has mastered the mandatory poses and can do them correctly

Hulkster has absolutely nothing he's been wrong on every single ' point ' he's made and he's pissed off because I'm the guy who rubbed his nose in the shit he's typed , which is exactly why he's in every single Dorian thread spewing the same old lines

Yes, the more I read this thread the more I realize it.

[jprc10]

LMMFAO excellent arguments

like this gem? Dorian is the most overrated bodybuilder of all time because he's so great 
Ronnie has more detailed calves than Dorian did 
Ronnie dominated a contest he lost the entire prejudging in 
1994 was fixed and 2001 wasn't
Ronnie in 1999 was more grainy than Dorian ever was 
1998 wasn't close but Ronnie won by only three points 
1999 is Ronnie's best showing ever but not one single expert says so 
Dorian only won because he faced smaller guys , ( Dillett , Fux , Nasser , Ian Harrison , Fancios Ferrigno ) 
Dorian was nothing more than calves and a back

This is just a small sample of ' excellent arguments ' and this is just the shit I can think of off the top of my head , I could make you look even more stupid if I did search the Truce Thread

You're stupid and everyone knows it except you .

Oh dear, did Hulkster actually post that as his "points"? That really show his lack of objectivity and his bias for Ronnie.

[jprc10]

Well the answer to your question is simple...no he shouldn't of beaten Dorian in 1994, the fact is or was Dorian has a superior skeletal structure than Shawn...and 99% of the others back then, (key word being skeletal structure not Genetics) Shawn was in Fantastic shape in 1994 however nothing could change the fact that his legs were quiet short in relation to the Total balance of his upper-body and all round structure, Nasser was the same, Both Lee Haney and Dorian Yates had Superior Skeletal Structures than both those BB greats, and this is what alot of people don't understand about both Haney and Yates...the mandatory poses like Front relaxed...side relaxed....turn to the rear relax...these are the FIRST impressions Judges get of the people in question...They are assessing the Skeletal structure and BALANCE of the Physique....not whos got better arms, quads, chest, then things like conditioning, muscle flow etc etc come into play.

Until people learn to assess these points on balance, and structure, and then other factors like shape,conditioning, etc come AFTER the first 2 points mentioned...well this is the reason for the non stop hes better than him posts.

Great response, I understand now, thanks.

[MORTALCOIL]

Hulkster once again getting owned. Dorian's '93 victory is not only one of the most dominant ever, but he won against the best version of Flex. Flex's physique at that Olympia would have won the title in probably 14 or 15 of the next editions.

[jprc10]

lol this has to be the biggest single peice of bullshit ND has ever posted. and that is saying alot.

none of the pics I post are photoshopped, none of the videos are faked. I publicly proved this to Kevin and we all know what happened next: he ran. he knew he was wrong about the pics and videos that Bizzy had done. forgot about that part, didn't you Flowerboy?

and the dorian shots I post are consistent with those I post of ronnie.

eg.: both at their bests, dorian gets killed as always.

but ND can't deal with that, neither can his bitches, so they complain the pics are biased against dorian, even though they are exellent shots of him at his best (in this case, 1993).


 

You're doing it again Hulkster.

[jprc10]

Exactly everything is assessed at once ..... All rounds are physique rounds every single pose ALL of the criteria is assessed at once and the judges are instructed to give it to the guy who most satisfies ALL of the criteria

You bring up the standing relaxed from the back , judges look and directly compare each of the competitors they start from the head down and look to see who has is carrying the most muscular bulk ( Dorian 262lbs in 1994 and Shawn 205lbs ) Dorian wins this part , they check for balance & proportion or ' symmetry ' which is misleading because there when people think of symmetry they either think of left/right exactness which does NOT exist in nature noting is truly symmetrical

Another part people most often associate symmetry with is small waist , hips , joints etc and they would be correct however they often omit muscular balance & proportion , torso length , leg length , arm length , how all of these tie together , Shawn does have better ' symmetry ' than Dorian , but Dorian has better balance & proportion . Like you mentioned Shawn has short legs , high calves , long torso , Dorian has excellent balance & proportion but being an almost pure mesomorph he also has bigger joints and a naturally wider waist than someone like Shawn & Flex who have very light frames

This is what 99.9% of people cannot grasp ..symmetry is NOT I repeat NOT judged as a separate and distinct entity in the ' symmetry round ' all rounds are physique rounds and all of the criteria is assessed at once , so while Shawn has advantages in ' symmetry ' over Dorian he's also lacking clearly in balance & proportion and muscular bulk , so you can see Dorian is distancing himself when all of the criteria is applied

Conditioning is area where Shawn comes close because he was razor sharp in 1994 but I mean it's relatively easy to be hard and dry when you're 205 pounds and a whole other ball of wax when you're 262 pounds , and being dry is one thing being dry and dense while carrying the maximum amount of size is next to impossible , Shawn knows this because he tried to add some size and compete at 215 pounds and you guessed it his conditioning suffered for it

Another aspect people can't seem to comprehend is the posing rounds , many say how can Ronnie and Dorian win the posing rounds when neither are technically great posers , which all goes back to All rounds are physique rounds even in the posing rounds , the judges are assessing who is carrying more muscular bulk , who is harder & drier , who is more balanced , who is proportionate which is exactly why Dorian always won the posing rounds despite not being as technically a great poser like Lee Labrada

Posing & presentation , it's all how you act on-stage , if you're confident , if you show off your physique to it's best advantage , if you can hold and maintain mandatory poses for long periods of time without shaking and bending over breathing heavy , it's all about confidence and poise and it's all about meeting all of the judging criteria because they don't separate it in any round in any pose.

Taking all that into account anyone who thinks Shawn Ray should have beaten Dorian in 1994 is just ignorant of how contests are judged and or biased towards physiques-styles they find appealing and or marketable , but going by how contests are judged 1994 was NO contest what-so-ever and Shawn was very lucky to beat Kevin Levrone for second a feat which he managed to do by one one single point.

The above reasons is why Dorian kicked everyones ass and the exact same reasons he would beat Ronnie .


Hulkster on a side note that's how an intelligent , factual , cognizant and objective argument laid out , you should try it some time but I'm afraid stupidity prevents you from looking past your own bias and ignorance.

Excellent information.
I just learned more on how contests are judged. 

[Hulkster]

LOL from ND? might as well learn from a 3 year old..

ps the issue about the quote is not whether or not shawn was correct, but whether or not the quote was stated. I was accused of making it up, which obviously and as always was not true.

the nuthuggers are always trying to catch me in some sort of lie or posting some sort of fake pic, but in several years of trying, they always come up short.

and for good reason. I never do.

end of story.

its just another tactic in a long futile argument to argue that dorian is better than ronnie..