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Author Topic: Black man telling it like it is. At the same time slapping snot out of black  (Read 1628 times)
tonymctones
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« Reply #75 on: August 28, 2014, 04:41:00 PM »

Just as your previous statement wasn't a two way street, neither is this one.
so in your mind a citizen is not obligated to follow the law if a police officer breaks it?
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George Whorewell
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« Reply #76 on: August 28, 2014, 08:47:37 PM »

so in your mind a citizen is not obligated to follow the law if a police officer breaks it?


IF THEY BE BLACK DEN SHO NUFF HE DO.
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« Reply #77 on: August 28, 2014, 08:56:38 PM »

I never said it was rational only a possible outcome.
Roll Eyes Your whole argument was that police aren't held to a higher standard in altercations with the citizenry and the outcome should have been expected.

Quote
So you dont think citizens and cops have common goals? who said anything about the community being mainly minorities?

It doesnt matter what demographic the community is they still have a responsibility to help foster a trusting relationship with cops Roll Eyes


No, I don't think that, but that isn't what I said. I said that citizens aren't a monolithic group.
Police departments, for the most part, are.


The original comment referenced minority/cop relations specifically. I talked about antagonistic programs
targeted at disproportionately at minorities. The relationship with the police is markedly different between
different demographics.
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« Reply #78 on: August 28, 2014, 08:57:35 PM »

Do you believe that police being assaulted/abused is an imaginary problem? or that it is so small that it is almost non-existent?

...without repercussions? Yes. It's an almost non-existent problem. The same can't be said the other way.
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« Reply #79 on: August 29, 2014, 05:59:16 AM »

Roll Eyes Your whole argument was that police aren't held to a higher standard in altercations with the citizenry and the outcome should have been expected.


No, I don't think that, but that isn't what I said. I said that citizens aren't a monolithic group.
Police departments, for the most part, are.


The original comment referenced minority/cop relations specifically. I talked about antagonistic programs
targeted at disproportionately at minorities. The relationship with the police is markedly different between
different demographics.

How are police monolithic?  How do you prove that?  How are they targeted at minorities disproportionately?   Lets be specific,  its not minorities its blacks to which you refer.  Asians aren't being "targeted". Ill make it simple for you, higher crime areas are typically demographically black  therefore they will be arrested more.  Caucasian populations are typically dispersed, blacks are concentrated. Its really that simple.

I used to think you were kore but now I suspect you are 24IQ (24k) with another of her fake accounts.
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« Reply #80 on: August 29, 2014, 06:33:02 AM »

How are police monolithic?  How do you prove that?

Police departments are organizations with employees with top down directives. Of course they're monolithic. No further proof is needed.


[/quote]
 How are they targeted at minorities disproportionately?   Lets be specific,  its not minorities its blacks to which you refer.  Asians aren't being "targeted".[/quote]
It's typically black and latino, which is why I didn't say "black".


Quote
Ill make it simple for you, higher crime areas are typically demographically black  therefore they will be arrested more.  Caucasian populations are typically dispersed, blacks are concentrated. Its really that simple.
I'm not simply talking about arrests. I was specifically referring to the stop and frisk program and similar programs.



Quote
I used to think you were kore but now I suspect you are 24IQ (24k) with another of her fake accounts.

I honestly don't give a fuck what you suspect. If I did, I would just write an article and wildly distort the source information to prove my point. You would, no doubt, fall for it without a second thought.
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« Reply #81 on: August 29, 2014, 06:37:59 AM »

Police departments are organizations with employees with top down directives. Of course they're monolithic. No further proof is needed.



 How are they targeted at minorities disproportionately?   Lets be specific,  its not minorities its blacks to which you refer.  Asians aren't being "targeted".
It's typically black and latino, which is why I didn't say "black".

I'm not simply talking about arrests. I was specifically referring to the stop and frisk program and similar programs.



I honestly don't give a fuck what you suspect. If I did, I would just write an article and wildly distort the source information to prove my point. You would, no doubt, fall for it without a second thought.


Why are blacks and latinos targeted?  Do you think there is a vast conspiracy to keep these groups down?  What would be your solution?  I would like a serious answer.
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« Reply #82 on: August 29, 2014, 06:57:22 AM »


Why are blacks and latinos targeted?  Do you think there is a vast conspiracy to keep these groups down?  What would be your solution?  I would like a serious answer.

to some extent, there is a conspiracy. There's a misguided sense of "taking action" that doesn't really lead to solutions. Draconian drug sentences didn't win any drug war. NY's stop and frisk program, as it is now, isn't winning any illegal gun war. Both exacerbate minority incarceration rates without coming close to achieving their goals. Lawmakers and law enforcement are aware of this.  It's true that black males are disproportionately imprisoned, but the most common reason behind black male incarceration is non-violent drug offenses. That's not a black problem. Poverty rates and crime go hand-in-hand, so there is going to be higher criminal percentage among blacks as long as there is a higher poverty rate. But the crime rate now is artificially high.
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« Reply #83 on: August 29, 2014, 07:09:19 AM »

to some extent, there is a conspiracy. There's a misguided sense of "taking action" that doesn't really lead to solutions. Draconian drug sentences didn't win any drug war. NY's stop and frisk program, as it is now, isn't winning any illegal gun war. Both exacerbate minority incarceration rates without coming close to achieving their goals. Lawmakers and law enforcement are aware of this.  It's true that black males are disproportionately imprisoned, but the most common reason behind black male incarceration is non-violent drug offenses. That's not a black problem. Poverty rates and crime go hand-in-hand, so there is going to be higher criminal percentage among blacks as long as there is a higher poverty rate. But the crime rate now is artificially high.

I do agree that drug sentencing is absolutely insane and needs to be changed immediately.  However, when comparing populations and sentencing you really have to look at each individuals case and whether they have a past criminal history and if they are being charged with other crimes in conjunction with the drug charge. For example, you can't compare one person sentenced for possession of  marijuana with another even if the amounts of marijuana they had were the same unless you have the particulars of their case history.

I want a clarification on how poverty directly effects criminality.  What does poverty and a lack of education have to do with moral instruction?  I ask this because no one has ever given me an answer.
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« Reply #84 on: August 29, 2014, 07:41:02 AM »

I do agree that drug sentencing is absolutely insane and needs to be changed immediately.  However, when comparing populations and sentencing you really have to look at each individuals case and whether they have a past criminal history and if they are being charged with other crimes in conjunction with the drug charge. For example, you can't compare one person sentenced for possession of  marijuana with another even if the amounts of marijuana they had were the same unless you have the particulars of their case history.
When you have such large numbers, an obvious pattern emerges.

Quote
I want a clarification on how poverty directly effects criminality.  What does poverty and a lack of education have to do with moral instruction?  I ask this because no one has ever given me an answer.
Ignore the obvious answer of a kid from a family with some sort of means simply being less likely to want to steal because
that kid's family will be able to afford the things he wants.

Let's say you have a mom who is in the poverty bracket. Strong moral compass, but she's a single mom who works 12 hours a day
to keep a roof over her and her son's head. That kid is a lot less likely to go to daycamp or violin practice after school simply because of economics. Now, those are character building activities, but they also provide supervision during formative years. Meanwhile. the son is coming home after school, sees mom a few hours before bed. Despite her best efforts, he simply isn't getting the same character building and supervision that a kid from a more financially secure household gets. He's more susceptible to falling into bad behavior with kids who are going through the same thing. This pattern doesn't appear so often among white poor kids because white poor kids are less likely to be friends exclusively with other poor white kids. So, while their parents might be at work 12 hours a day, they are hanging out at a friend's house whose mom is making them cookies. This is just anecdotal, as I'm short on time, but that's one aspect. There are tons more if you think without preconceived notions.
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« Reply #85 on: August 29, 2014, 07:49:08 AM »

When you have such large numbers, an obvious pattern emerges.
Ignore the obvious answer of a kid from a family with some sort of means simply being less likely to want to steal because
that kid's family will be able to afford the things he wants.

Let's say you have a mom who is in the poverty bracket. Strong moral compass, but she's a single mom who works 12 hours a day
to keep a roof over her and her son's head. That kid is a lot less likely to go to daycamp or violin practice after school simply because of economics. Now, those are character building activities, but they also provide supervision during formative years. Meanwhile. the son is coming home after school, sees mom a few hours before bed. Despite her best efforts, he simply isn't getting the same character building and supervision that a kid from a more financially secure household gets. He's more susceptible to falling into bad behavior with kids who are going through the same thing. This pattern doesn't appear so often among white poor kids because white poor kids are less likely to be friends exclusively with other poor white kids. So, while their parents might be at work 12 hours a day, they are hanging out at a friend's house whose mom is making them cookies. This is just anecdotal, as I'm short on time, but that's one aspect. There are tons more if you think without preconceived notions.

Ill answer the first part and come back to the second shortly.  Here lies the problem,  you cant look at the total numbers and assume there is a pattern. Its necessary to look further.   Correlation does not mean causation. 
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« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2014, 01:50:16 PM »

Ill answer the first part and come back to the second shortly.  Here lies the problem,  you cant look at the total numbers and assume there is a pattern. Its necessary to look further.   Correlation does not mean causation. 

You don't even have to make assumptions. Ignore incarceration rates. The numbers are even worse when you look at arrest rates. Even though multiple studies have shown that blacks and whites use marijuana at almost the same rate, the arrest rate 4 blacks is nearly 4 times as high.

Here's a link with some comprehensive charts (and, yes, the study was commissioned by that ACLU via federal data);
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nih

The Times also went over the data independently and verified it's accurate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/marijuana-arrests-four-times-as-likely-for-blacks.html
From the Times:


Federal programs like the Edward Byrne Justice Assistance Grant Program continue to provide incentives for racial profiling, the report said, by including arrest numbers in its performance measures when distributing hundreds of millions of dollars to local law enforcement each year.

Phillip Atiba Goff, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, said that police departments, partly driven by a desire to increase their drug arrest statistics, can concentrate on minority or poorer neighborhoods to meet numerical goals, focusing on low-level offenses that are easier, quicker and cheaper than investigating serious felony crimes.

“Whenever federal funding agencies encourage law enforcement to meet numerical arrest goals instead of public safety goals, it will likely promote stereotype-based policing and we can expect these sorts of racial gaps,” Professor Goff said.

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« Reply #87 on: September 03, 2014, 07:01:11 AM »

You don't even have to make assumptions. Ignore incarceration rates. The numbers are even worse when you look at arrest rates. Even though multiple studies have shown that blacks and whites use marijuana at almost the same rate, the arrest rate 4 blacks is nearly 4 times as high.

Here's a link with some comprehensive charts (and, yes, the study was commissioned by that ACLU via federal data);
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nih

The Times also went over the data independently and verified it's accurate.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/04/us/marijuana-arrests-four-times-as-likely-for-blacks.html
From the Times:


Federal programs like the Edward Byrne Justice Assistance Grant Program continue to provide incentives for racial profiling, the report said, by including arrest numbers in its performance measures when distributing hundreds of millions of dollars to local law enforcement each year.

Phillip Atiba Goff, a psychology professor at the University of California, Los Angeles, said that police departments, partly driven by a desire to increase their drug arrest statistics, can concentrate on minority or poorer neighborhoods to meet numerical goals, focusing on low-level offenses that are easier, quicker and cheaper than investigating serious felony crimes.

“Whenever federal funding agencies encourage law enforcement to meet numerical arrest goals instead of public safety goals, it will likely promote stereotype-based policing and we can expect these sorts of racial gaps,” Professor Goff said.



Arrest rates correspond to witness identification, particularly  in cases of assault and murder.   The links you provide make the same assumptions you do.  The studies provide none of the particulars such as prior criminal history and whether the person being charged for marijuana possession was simultaneously being charged with another crime.  Nor does it mention whether the blacks arrested for marijuana possession were in fact arrested for another crime and found with marijuana   One of the links doesn't even work.  You made the exact mistake I assumed you would.

You are trying to find a connection and thus a conspiracy.   More arrests does not mean the arrests are unwarranted.  Again, when crime is concentrated in a particular area and committed disproportionately by a particular group you're going to get lopsided arrest numbers.

When you have such large numbers, an obvious pattern emerges.
Ignore the obvious answer of a kid from a family with some sort of means simply being less likely to want to steal because
that kid's family will be able to afford the things he wants.

Let's say you have a mom who is in the poverty bracket. Strong moral compass, but she's a single mom who works 12 hours a day
to keep a roof over her and her son's head. That kid is a lot less likely to go to daycamp or violin practice after school simply because of economics. Now, those are character building activities, but they also provide supervision during formative years. Meanwhile. the son is coming home after school, sees mom a few hours before bed. Despite her best efforts, he simply isn't getting the same character building and supervision that a kid from a more financially secure household gets. He's more susceptible to falling into bad behavior with kids who are going through the same thing. This pattern doesn't appear so often among white poor kids because white poor kids are less likely to be friends exclusively with other poor white kids. So, while their parents might be at work 12 hours a day, they are hanging out at a friend's house whose mom is making them cookies. This is just anecdotal, as I'm short on time, but that's one aspect. There are tons more if you think without preconceived notions.

I'm not sure this really explains much of anything.  How do you know that most poor whites don't associate with other poor whites?  Why wouldn't they?   It seems likely that poor whites will associate with other of their same economic status based on proximity alone.  At a friends house baking cookies?  This is a ridiculous statement without merit and fact.   You watch to much leave it to beaver. You confirm my belief that black people don't know much about white people other than what they see on TV.

For the blacks in your scenario to succumb to negative influences those influences must already be institutionally present within that community.   Your opinion is congruent with the opinion that the problem is inherently cultural.  You're admitting the propensity within the black community for absentee fathers. This is clearly a cultural one.   A large number of these moms aren't working and should have plenty of time to interact with their children.  Often times the mothers aren't raising the children at all.
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« Reply #88 on: Today at 01:24:31 AM »

Arrest rates correspond to witness identification, particularly  in cases of assault and murder.   The links you provide make the same assumptions you do.  The studies provide none of the particulars such as prior criminal history and whether the person being charged for marijuana possession was simultaneously being charged with another crime.  Nor does it mention whether the blacks arrested for marijuana possession were in fact arrested for another crime and found with marijuana   One of the links doesn't even work.  You made the exact mistake I assumed you would.

You are trying to find a connection and thus a conspiracy.   More arrests does not mean the arrests are unwarranted.  Again, when crime is concentrated in a particular area and committed disproportionately by a particular group you're going to get lopsided arrest numbers.

So here's a link to an article that discusses NY's marijuana arrests on HuffPo. We have this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/05/of-50000-marijuana-arrest_n_1078023.html
New York's lowest-level marijuana-possession charge – criminal possession of marijuana in the 5th degree, a misdemeanor – has been the most common arrest charge in the city for much of the past decade, and the numbers have been steadily rising. So far this year there have been 38,359 reported arrests. Last year, there were 50,377 arrests citywide, up from 46,492 in 2009, according to statistics from the state Division of Criminal Justice Services. That represents about 616 arrests per 100,000 city residents.

So, here in NYC the fact is that the majority of arrests-much less drug possession arrests- are made explicitly for that sole, low-level charge. Even if you want to try to make the argument that conviction rates reflect black men have more priors, the recidivism rate is artificially inflated by a policy of bullshit charges targeting a certain demographic. As the article points out, it is hard to make direct comparisons across state lines, but keeping in mind how federal funding is handed out and arrest patterns are pretty consistent nationwide, it is pretty likely that the same factors come into play.

Quote
I'm not sure this really explains much of anything.  How do you know that most poor whites don't associate with other poor whites?  Why wouldn't they?   It seems likely that poor whites will associate with other of their same economic status based on proximity alone.  At a friends house baking cookies?  This is a ridiculous statement without merit and fact.   You watch to much leave it to beaver. You confirm my belief that black people don't know much about white people other than what they see on TV.
Notice how immediately following the baking cookies bit, there's this sentence: THIS IS JUST ANECDOTAL. Neither the story about the black mom or the white mom were real. They were made up examples used to illustrate a point. However, I do know many white people outside of my "Leave it to Beaver" marathons, and I can confirm that baking cookies is not an unusual practice.  
But to address the actual point, I never said that most poor whites don't associate with other poor whites. I said a poor white child is less likely to have a circle of exclusively poor friends. The poverty rate among whites is lower, the affluence rate among whites is higher and the total pool of whites is simply larger than that of blacks. (And to, once again, get slightly off topic, it's the same with a question you repeated ad nauseam in another thread. Mathematically, the disparity between white-on-black crime vs black-on-white crime should be expected. With a larger pool of blacks and smaller pool of whites, the majority of crime would be expected to be intraracial while the crime that wasn't would be expected to victimize the larger group. )

Quote
For the blacks in your scenario to succumb to negative influences those influences must already be institutionally present within that community.   Your opinion is congruent with the opinion that the problem is inherently cultural.
No, that isn't what I said and that isn't the case. Kids have been finding ways to get into trouble on their own for centuries. Kids of all stripes get into trouble all the time. Remember this asshole? http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/05/us/texas-affluenza-teen/ What I did say is that in that particular example, undersupervised children are more likely to get into trouble. It ha not to do with "institutional negative influences".

 (I also don't understand how negative influences can be "institutionally present" within a community when a community isn't an institution.  Roll Eyes )



Quote
You're admitting the propensity within the black community for absentee fathers. This is clearly a cultural one.
Which is neither here nor there. You have moved on to your favorite tactic of arguing with your own points.


Quote
 A large number of these moms aren't working and should have plenty of time to interact with their children.  Often times the mothers aren't raising the children at all.
The overwhelmingly vast majority of single mothers are employed and as present as can be expected. Single mothers, as a group, work the longest hours of almost any American demographic, yet has the highest poverty rate. The single mother example I gave above is statistically more accurate than your picture of an unemployed single mother whose too busy selling drugs or whoring herself out to pay attention to her children.
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