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Author Topic: Adonis, Basile, Goodrum, etc. are ALL WRONG!  (Read 2120 times)
Vince Basile
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« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2010, 11:30:19 PM »

If we reverse engineer hypertrophy we find that those huge muscles are capable of repeating reasonably heavy lifts with little rest in between many, many times. Translated to sets and reps that means they do lots of sets in say half an hour or so. If you add up the tension in each set that accumulates to induce hypertrophy then it appears something less than two minutes might be sufficient. Of course, the muscle is under tension for far longer but until it approaches exhaustion there is little stimulus for growth. It is that zone where the tension stresses the resources of muscles that are effective. Many can't get into that zone and wonder why their muscles don't grow.

Some trainers try to simplify matters and do long holds and other abbreviated training. No one has gotten huge following those protocols. I can write stuff like this all day but it takes a certain amount of intelligence to absorb what I am saying so it is wasted on the Flotsam. The epitome of being characterized as flotsam is our own Melvin Goodrum CSN MFT! That dude is genuine hillbilly thick!
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dj181
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« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2010, 11:43:48 PM »

I basically mean time under tension per work set til muscular failure and not counting rep cadance. For example, if I do an all-out set of barbell curls for 6 reps to failure then it takes me roughly 20 sec to complete this set. If abbrievated training doesn't work, then how do you explain Arthur Jones results that he had with his trainees long, long ago? Yeah I know that Mr. Jones certainly wasn't an angel, but he was a very honest guy, and he didn't speak lies or BS.
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pellius
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« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2010, 12:34:29 AM »

If we reverse engineer hypertrophy we find that those huge muscles are capable of repeating reasonably heavy lifts with little rest in between many, many times. Translated to sets and reps that means they do lots of sets in say half an hour or so. If you add up the tension in each set that accumulates to induce hypertrophy then it appears something less than two minutes might be sufficient. Of course, the muscle is under tension for far longer but until it approaches exhaustion there is little stimulus for growth. It is that zone where the tension stresses the resources of muscles that are effective. Many can't get into that zone and wonder why their muscles don't grow.

Some trainers try to simplify matters and do long holds and other abbreviated training. No one has gotten huge following those protocols. I can write stuff like this all day but it takes a certain amount of intelligence to absorb what I am saying so it is wasted on the Flotsam. The epitome of being characterized as flotsam is our own Melvin Goodrum CSN MFT! That dude is genuine hillbilly thick!


If you add tension with each succeeding set, assuming that the previous sets were taking to failure (defined here where another rep is no longer possible) then the reps, perforce, would corresponding drop dramatically reducing tension time. In fact, if the weight is kept constant and the previous sets were taken to failure, each succeeding set will necessarily  see a drop in weight and thereforce a drop in TUT. This is assuming that you are resting no longer than 3 minutes between sets but even the your strength will eventually diminish.
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2010, 01:27:29 AM »

[color=guy tension is what you are aiming for. Not mere accumulation of tension. Arthur wrote about this but maybe used different words. It makes no sense that muscles should keep growing because we merely put tension on them. What is required is a special kind of tension and that is the kind that we find when we are doing the final hard rep or two. So in any given set we would be lucky to have 5 seconds of this trigger tension. You keep doing set after set adding another 5 seconds to the total until you have 30 to 120 seconds of that tension. Your symptoms will be the same no matter what protocol or method you use. You will be exhausted, shaking, pumped and feeling great.

The reason there are so many different theories and methods is because you can arrive at the hypertrophy stimulus in many different ways. Arthur was looking for the most effective and efficient method. HIT might not be the safest.

If we look at what big guys do in gyms, disregrading the drugs for a moment, they all do very similar things. Volume training with reasonably heavy weights.

When you know that this is what you need to do to get big muscles you also know that when you see a guy like Goodrum and he doesn't have the size, well, he just isn't training heavy or hard enough. Why muscleheads would use Pilates and balls is a mystery but that is why collectively we are knuckleheads to the rest of society.[/color]
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pellius
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« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2010, 01:39:38 AM »

[color=guy tension is what you are aiming for. Not mere accumulation of tension. Arthur wrote about this but maybe used different words. It makes no sense that muscles should keep growing because we merely put tension on them. What is required is a special kind of tension and that is the kind that we find when we are doing the final hard rep or two. So in any given set we would be lucky to have 5 seconds of this trigger tension. You keep doing set after set adding another 5 seconds to the total until you have 30 to 120 seconds of that tension. Your symptoms will be the same no matter what protocol or method you use. You will be exhausted, shaking, pumped and feeling great.

The reason there are so many different theories and methods is because you can arrive at the hypertrophy stimulus in many different ways. Arthur was looking for the most effective and efficient method. HIT might not be the safest.

If we look at what big guys do in gyms, disregrading the drugs for a moment, they all do very similar things. Volume training with reasonably heavy weights.

When you know that this is what you need to do to get big muscles you also know that when you see a guy like Goodrum and he doesn't have the size, well, he just isn't training heavy or hard enough. Why muscleheads would use Pilates and balls is a mystery but that is why collectively we are knuckleheads to the rest of society.[/color]

What is it about HIT that you consider unsafe?
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2010, 02:31:32 AM »

No theory is safe or unsafe. However, people who embrace HIT often get injured because of the brevity of programs. If you combine heavy loads and brevity you are asking for trouble.

It is possible to thoroughly warm up muscles before the 'effective' sets. If you do that it is no longer HIT. Just saying.
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pellius
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« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2010, 02:52:33 AM »

No theory is safe or unsafe. However, people who embrace HIT often get injured because of the brevity of programs. If you combine heavy loads and brevity you are asking for trouble.

It is possible to thoroughly warm up muscles before the 'effective' sets. If you do that it is no longer HIT. Just saying.


Even Jones advocates a proper warm up before you begin your work set. I don't think he got Viator to squat 500 lbs for reps cold. People get injured because they exceed the tensile strength of their muscles and/or tendons by doing explosive movements and/or poor form which compromises their structural integrity.
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wes
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« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2010, 03:19:15 AM »

Lift,Eat,Sleep,Repeat!!

It`s not brain surgery for gods sake.
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newmom
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« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2010, 03:21:13 AM »

Lift,Eat,Sleep,Repeat!!

It`s not brain surgery for gods sake.

lmao wes true indeed
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Vince Basile
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« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2010, 03:22:22 AM »

We have seen almost all the really big guys get injured when they lift really heavy weights. The list is growing. Torn biceps, pecs, lats, and even thighs. All manner of hernias and lumps are appearing on the abdomens. What role drugs play or if they make it easier to injure muscles is unknown. My advice is to keep reps in the 10 to 15 range and warm up using higher reps. You also get a pump this way whereas using low reps isn't as good. More poor form noticed by those doing lower reps.

Arthur was right: build strength, don't demonstrate it. You don't do singles. You don't arm wrestle. You don't get into fights. You don't show off.

Every time I go to my gym I see guys cheating. This is almost an universal phenomenon in gyms. Just about everyone is cheating so that they are using respectable weights. The sad thing is they are unlikely to grow because time under tension is lacking from all that swinging and recruiting other muscles. These guys would swear they are training hard. Yes, they are doing work but not putting tension of the right kind for long enough on the target muscles. It is like a virus affecting almost everyone who lifts weights or uses machines. You would hope that machines allow less cheating but humans manage to cheat using them as well.
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dj181
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« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2010, 12:07:52 PM »

Good post pellius, it seems that you are very knowledgable regarding Jones' theories and writings. I remember him saying something to the effect that injuries occur because the connective tissues have a breaking point to which a certain and heavy enough training load would cause an injury once it is encountered, but he said that most trainees never actually get that strong. And he also said that if a trainee actually does get that strong, then he has 2 options: 1. Keep training in the normal fashion and risk injury, or 2. Keep the load the same, but increase the number of reps. And yes, according to Jones theroy the last rep or 2 in a set taken to muscular failure are reps which stimulate growth.
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SF1900
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« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2010, 12:51:01 PM »



That's Steve Hoochman.  He's an affiliate of Ryan Lee just like me and Coach.  He's good at what he does 

Funny thing is that his facility that you see is actually a rented storage garage...... He pays peanuts for his place:o

He's a tool. Hope this helps  Cheesy
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