opinion?

[ATHEIST]

my friend emailed me:

"there are a great deal of books out there talking about how the Bible should be read.  The Bible encompasses all sorts of genres of literature, including historical accounts, letters (which are often believed to also be treatises), poetry and narrative.  I don't think any credible bible scholar would say ALL of the Bible is historical and should be treated as such.  Any scholar in their right mind would understand that the Bible is comprised of different genres and composed over thousands of years. you can't actually say all of the Bible is accurate.  Who would!  It's like saying the poetry Shakespeare wrote in Julius Caesar was actual history of Julius Caesar!  Crazy thinking!
 
 
you actually really need to open your mind up.  What you are saying is correct, the Bible can be inconsistent in different areas.  But many of those areas happen not to be historical accounts.  How can you call Numbers and Deuteronomy a historical account.  It's a frickin listing of rules and laws.  Portions of it are actually lawmaking, legislation if you will, not a historical account!
 
How can the Psalms be a historical account or judged by the standard of history?!  It's poetry and songs for Pete's sake!"

my point is, the Bible is vague in many areas and often is open to interpretation correct? if so then man's salvation is reliant on his own personal interpretation of Gods word? why would God leave man's salvation up to him knowing he is prone to error and manipulation?

[theonlyone]

if so then man's salvation is reliant on his own personal interpretation of Gods word? why would God leave man's salvation up to him knowing he is prone to error and manipulation?

 You are from USA right? You wouldn't be asking such questions if you read Fedor Dostoevskiy seriously.
 After all, it was Einstein that said: "Dostoevsky gives me more than any scientist, more than Gauss." or Nietzsche -"Dostoevskiy is the only psycologist from whom I have anything to learn" and not vice versa. I mean you're not one of those who believe that Harry Potter or Sex and the City is the human thought pinacle? Or "The top 100 most influential people" from The Times is real deal? Or "learn some English/have you ever taken a science class arguments in debates are the most dangerous weapon? Can you separate entertainment with serious things? I mean don't anger at me, take it like a man. I may have given you an answer but would you understand? You wouldn't have been called ATHEISTfrom the 1'st place my friend.

 
 

[theonlyone]

my friend emailed me:

"there are a great deal of books out there talking about how the Bible should be read.  

There are not enough smiles but I'll pick that one 

[Butterbean]

my friend emailed me:

"there are a great deal of books out there talking about how the Bible should be read.  The Bible encompasses all sorts of genres of literature, including historical accounts, letters (which are often believed to also be treatises), poetry and narrative.  I don't think any credible bible scholar would say ALL of the Bible is historical and should be treated as such.  Any scholar in their right mind would understand that the Bible is comprised of different genres and composed over thousands of years. you can't actually say all of the Bible is accurate.  Who would!  It's like saying the poetry Shakespeare wrote in Julius Caesar was actual history of Julius Caesar!  Crazy thinking!
 
 
you actually really need to open your mind up.  What you are saying is correct, the Bible can be inconsistent in different areas.  But many of those areas happen not to be historical accounts.  How can you call Numbers and Deuteronomy a historical account.  It's a frickin listing of rules and laws.  Portions of it are actually lawmaking, legislation if you will, not a historical account!
 
How can the Psalms be a historical account or judged by the standard of history?!  It's poetry and songs for Pete's sake!"

my point is, the Bible is vague in many areas and often is open to interpretation correct? if so then man's salvation is reliant on his own personal interpretation of Gods word? why would God leave man's salvation up to him knowing he is prone to error and manipulation?

I guess I'm not understanding the focus on the "historical account" stuff mentioned above?

IMO, I think that the Bible can be said to be open to interpretation (reading surrounding text is always helpful) in some areas but regarding the subject of salvation I feel it is clear.  
 
John 3:16-18:
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Eph 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God

Gal 2:16
Know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

etc...


 

[ATHEIST]

You are from USA right? You wouldn't be asking such questions if you read Fedor Dostoevskiy seriously.
 After all, it was Einstein that said: "Dostoevsky gives me more than any scientist, more than Gauss." or Nietzsche -"Dostoevskiy is the only psycologist from whom I have anything to learn" and not vice versa. I mean you're not one of those who believe that Harry Potter or Sex and the City is the human thought pinacle? Or "The top 100 most influential people" from The Times is real deal? Or "learn some English/have you ever taken a science class arguments in debates are the most dangerous weapon? Can you separate entertainment with serious things? I mean don't anger at me, take it like a man. I may have given you an answer but would you understand? You wouldn't have been called ATHEISTfrom the 1'st place my friend.

yes I am from the US, apparently rhetoric must be looked highly upon in your country, congratulations on winning the trophy for "most words used with no substance".
 
and I think you meant psychology not "psycology"...

[theonlyone]

yes I am from the US, apparently rhetoric must be looked highly upon in your country, congratulations on winning the trophy for "most words used with no substance".
 
and I think you meant psychology not "psycology"...

 Plant! Master is giving instructions on work to a arrived apprentice.
-Do you see a lever?
-Yes!
-At 8 am you switch it on and at 6 pm you switch it off. Understand it?
-No!
-I repeat. Do you see a lever?
-Yes!
-At 8 am you switch it on and at 6 pm you switch it off. Understand it?
-No!
-I repeat once again. Do you see a lever?
-Yes!
-At 8 am you switch it on and at 6 pm you switch it off. Understand it?
-Man are you what stupid? I tell you for the 3'rd time I did not understand...

[ATHEIST]

Plant! Master is giving instructions on work to a arrived apprentice.
-Do you see a lever?
-Yes!
-At 8 am you switch it on and at 6 pm you switch it off. Understand it?
-No!
-I repeat. Do you see a lever?
-Yes!
-At 8 am you switch it on and at 6 pm you switch it off. Understand it?
-No!
-I repeat once again. Do you see a lever?
-Yes!
-At 8 am you switch it on and at 6 pm you switch it off. Understand it?
-Man are you what stupid? I tell you for the 3'rd time I did not understand...

"it is eternal winter there. why a nostril wide inhaling terror trembling & affright.

dolly varden with feet of weary woe; rafters, dead faces that were like his own"

[theonlyone]

"it is eternal winter there. why a nostril wide inhaling terror trembling & affright.

dolly varden with feet of weary woe; rafters, dead faces that were like his own"

 "Armageddon" - An asteroid is closing in the earth - the president is black
 "The fifth element" - An asteroid is closing in the eath - the president is black
 Obama - is president. Question - what is closing in the Earth?

[Agnostic007]

I think your friend was saying that historical accounts are just a part of what the bible contains along with poetry, letters etc etc. And whether you believe the bible or not (I don't, but used to), I have found the history and formation of the bible itself, i.e. the formulation of what we have now from where the manuscripts started, to be fascinating. If you are looking for some interesting on line reading, www.infidels.org has a vast secular library with works from Twain, Ingersoll, Jefferson to pro Christian authors like Strobel, Lewis and Mcdowell.

[Butterbean]

. And whether you believe the bible or not (I don't, but used to),

Ag, what changed your mind if you don't mind sharing?

[Agnostic007]

Ag, what changed your mind if you don't mind sharing?

I think I write a few pages on the transformation, as it was gradual over the course of a couple years but in a nutshell it happened like this;

I was raised Christian from as far back as I can remember. I attended Sunday school weekly as a child, later attending church as a teen. Ironically, my last couple years of High School I was seldom without my Living Bible (still have it, with the marks on it from being jammed under the seat of my pick up. I was even honored with the privilege of  giving a sermon during one or two Sunday morning services at our local Baptist Church. As years went by I continued to believe as I always had. I joined the military and broke the habit of attending regular services while overseas, but nonetheless I would have taken a bullet in the head than denounce Christ, I just believed in God, Jesus and the bible, and that was that.

After getting out of the military I joined a police department. Sometime around 1997 I started to realize that while I was a Christian, and I was morally and ethically living my life right, I had fallen away from living my life for Christ so to speak. I thought.. if I really really really believe in the bible, and that God is right there watching my every movement, act, deed, etc etc, then I should really be devoting my efforts more towards spreading the gospel, walking the walk kind of thing. I felt I needed to remotivate myself, get back into studying the word, in a sense, either *** or get off the pot.

I was intrigued to discover that after all my life long studying of the bible, years of reading it, talking about it, even preaching about it, I really had never read it from cover to cover. I mean really read it. Even then, I realized that what I might have read, how close was it to what was really said? It had been translated into English in the 1600's from what sources? What sources did the sources the KJV scholars use to arrive at their end product? I wanted to get as close to the earliest translations as possible. As close to what Jesus really said or meant as I could get.  So I read the bible. I was surprised to read some of the things in it from the old testament. Things no preacher ever mentioned in the thousands of services I had attended. So after reading the bible a couple times cover to cover, there were a lot of questions. The Holy Spirit, Jesus and God were silent about the things I had trouble coming to grips with so I turned to the apologetic authors who wrote Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Case for Christ, Summa Theologica, etc etc. By chance I happened upon some writings by Ingersoll, Twain, Barker, and a few others that argued against the bible being true. I had never been exposed to that and had always searched out information either by choice or subconciously that was in line with my personal beliefs.

Soooo... after reading arguments from both sides, comparing what I have/had experienced personally, weighing all the evidence for an against the bible being true, I had to be intellectually honest and reluctantly concede it is likely the bible isnt true. I would like it to be, but the only reason to believe something to be true, is because it likely is, not that I want it to be. So it didnt happen all at once, but over time, and further studying, I eventually had to give up my belief in the bible.

Dan Barker, a former Evangelist who now heads the Freedom From Religion Organization, wrote a book called "Losing Faith in Faith" chronicling his transformation from a bible thumping, missionary evangelist to an atheist. While our journey was slightly different, I certainly saw similarities.

I'll sum it up by saying that this is of course my personal opinion/belief and I don't push my belief or lack of belief on anyone. Someone else reading the same information, subjected to the same experiences I have, may come to a totally opposite conclusion. I enjoy a respectful debate and or discussion of beliefs as I long ago lost any desire to change anyones mind to my beliefs. I've been wrong before, I could be wrong now and if information arose that indicated I was wrong, I could change my belief tomorrow.  
I hope that kind of answered your question Stella  

[Butterbean]

I think I write a few pages on the transformation, as it was gradual over the course of a couple years but in a nutshell it happened like this;

I was raised Christian from as far back as I can remember. I attended Sunday school weekly as a child, later attending church as a teen. Ironically, my last couple years of High School I was seldom without my Living Bible (still have it, with the marks on it from being jammed under the seat of my pick up. I was even honored with the privilege of  giving a sermon during one or two Sunday morning services at our local Baptist Church. As years went by I continued to believe as I always had. I joined the military and broke the habit of attending regular services while overseas, but nonetheless I would have taken a bullet in the head than denounce Christ, I just believed in God, Jesus and the bible, and that was that.

After getting out of the military I joined a police department. Sometime around 1997 I started to realize that while I was a Christian, and I was morally and ethically living my life right, I had fallen away from living my life for Christ so to speak. I thought.. if I really really really believe in the bible, and that God is right there watching my every movement, act, deed, etc etc, then I should really be devoting my efforts more towards spreading the gospel, walking the walk kind of thing. I felt I needed to remotivate myself, get back into studying the word, in a sense, either *** or get off the pot.

I was intrigued to discover that after all my life long studying of the bible, years of reading it, talking about it, even preaching about it, I really had never read it from cover to cover. I mean really read it. Even then, I realized that what I might have read, how close was it to what was really said? It had been translated into English in the 1600's from what sources? What sources did the sources the KJV scholars use to arrive at their end product? I wanted to get as close to the earliest translations as possible. As close to what Jesus really said or meant as I could get.  So I read the bible. I was surprised to read some of the things in it from the old testament. Things no preacher ever mentioned in the thousands of services I had attended. So after reading the bible a couple times cover to cover, there were a lot of questions. The Holy Spirit, Jesus and God were silent about the things I had trouble coming to grips with so I turned to the apologetic authors who wrote Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Case for Christ, Summa Theologica, etc etc. By chance I happened upon some writings by Ingersoll, Twain, Barker, and a few others that argued against the bible being true. I had never been exposed to that and had always searched out information either by choice or subconciously that was in line with my personal beliefs.

Soooo... after reading arguments from both sides, comparing what I have/had experienced personally, weighing all the evidence for an against the bible being true, I had to be intellectually honest and reluctantly concede it is likely the bible isnt true. I would like it to be, but the only reason to believe something to be true, is because it likely is, not that I want it to be. So it didnt happen all at once, but over time, and further studying, I eventually had to give up my belief in the bible.

Dan Barker, a former Evangelist who now heads the Freedom From Religion Organization, wrote a book called "Losing Faith in Faith" chronicling his transformation from a bible thumping, missionary evangelist to an atheist. While our journey was slightly different, I certainly saw similarities.

I'll sum it up by saying that this is of course my personal opinion/belief and I don't push my belief or lack of belief on anyone. Someone else reading the same information, subjected to the same experiences I have, may come to a totally opposite conclusion. I enjoy a respectful debate and or discussion of beliefs as I long ago lost any desire to change anyones mind to my beliefs. I've been wrong before, I could be wrong now and if information arose that indicated I was wrong, I could change my belief tomorrow.  
I hope that kind of answered your question Stella  

Yes, thanks so much for your answer, Agnostic.

May I ask what kinds of things that Ingersoll, Twain and Barker wrote swayed you to reject the bible as truth?

[theonlyone]

I think I write a few pages on the transformation, as it was gradual over the course of a couple years but in a nutshell it happened like this;

I was raised Christian from as far back as I can remember. I attended Sunday school weekly as a child, later attending church as a teen. Ironically, my last couple years of High School I was seldom without my Living Bible (still have it, with the marks on it from being jammed under the seat of my pick up. I was even honored with the privilege of  giving a sermon during one or two Sunday morning services at our local Baptist Church. As years went by I continued to believe as I always had. I joined the military and broke the habit of attending regular services while overseas, but nonetheless I would have taken a bullet in the head than denounce Christ, I just believed in God, Jesus and the bible, and that was that.

After getting out of the military I joined a police department. Sometime around 1997 I started to realize that while I was a Christian, and I was morally and ethically living my life right, I had fallen away from living my life for Christ so to speak. I thought.. if I really really really believe in the bible, and that God is right there watching my every movement, act, deed, etc etc, then I should really be devoting my efforts more towards spreading the gospel, walking the walk kind of thing. I felt I needed to remotivate myself, get back into studying the word, in a sense, either *** or get off the pot.

I was intrigued to discover that after all my life long studying of the bible, years of reading it, talking about it, even preaching about it, I really had never read it from cover to cover. I mean really read it. Even then, I realized that what I might have read, how close was it to what was really said? It had been translated into English in the 1600's from what sources? What sources did the sources the KJV scholars use to arrive at their end product? I wanted to get as close to the earliest translations as possible. As close to what Jesus really said or meant as I could get.  So I read the bible. I was surprised to read some of the things in it from the old testament. Things no preacher ever mentioned in the thousands of services I had attended. So after reading the bible a couple times cover to cover, there were a lot of questions. The Holy Spirit, Jesus and God were silent about the things I had trouble coming to grips with so I turned to the apologetic authors who wrote Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Case for Christ, Summa Theologica, etc etc. By chance I happened upon some writings by Ingersoll, Twain, Barker, and a few others that argued against the bible being true. I had never been exposed to that and had always searched out information either by choice or subconciously that was in line with my personal beliefs.

Soooo... after reading arguments from both sides, comparing what I have/had experienced personally, weighing all the evidence for an against the bible being true, I had to be intellectually honest and reluctantly concede it is likely the bible isnt true. I would like it to be, but the only reason to believe something to be true, is because it likely is, not that I want it to be. So it didnt happen all at once, but over time, and further studying, I eventually had to give up my belief in the bible.

Dan Barker, a former Evangelist who now heads the Freedom From Religion Organization, wrote a book called "Losing Faith in Faith" chronicling his transformation from a bible thumping, missionary evangelist to an atheist. While our journey was slightly different, I certainly saw similarities.

I'll sum it up by saying that this is of course my personal opinion/belief and I don't push my belief or lack of belief on anyone. Someone else reading the same information, subjected to the same experiences I have, may come to a totally opposite conclusion. I enjoy a respectful debate and or discussion of beliefs as I long ago lost any desire to change anyones mind to my beliefs. I've been wrong before, I could be wrong now and if information arose that indicated I was wrong, I could change my belief tomorrow.  
I hope that kind of answered your question Stella  

  just a little bit later