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Author Topic: Maher: 'I Don't Trust Americans...They're Just Too F***ing Dumb!'  (Read 7867 times)
The Luke
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« Reply #225 on: September 29, 2008, 08:04:19 AM »

As for "religious intellectuals in the science fields", you did not say that there are very few.  You said that there are none.  So you were wrong.  And the scientists I listed are no ordinary scientists.  They are some of the best and they have made great contributions to modern science.

...closer examination would show that the few scientists who do express religious belief generally have certain caveats:

-they believe in religion itself, not god.
Their belief being based on the worth of what Plato called "The Noble Lie" ie: religion does more good than harm, so it is worthwhile even if untrue. The "it's-good-for-other-people-to-believe" crowd.

-they believe in a sublime intelligence that produced the fundamental physical laws (like Einstein), not a personal god... but more of a "possible" creator akin to a non-interventionist Newtonian "Prime Mover".

-they are spiritualist or speculative deists... they have a gut feeling they're might be something behind the reality we see.

-they are mathematical deists: they believe in an impersonal; non-sentient set of mathematical laws whose expression is what we perceive as reality: some go so far as to liken insight into these laws to a quasi-religious revelation... a sort of initiatory mystery religion of science. But this is mostly romantic fancy and recognised as such even by those who partake of it. 

-they are self identified religious non-believers. If asked they say they are Catholic (or Protestant) as they identify such tradition as part of their identity... but they don't worship; pray or believe. As a physicist friend of mine said: "Religion? That's what one abandons to embrace reason... whichever tradition you come from isn't nearly as important as you having left it". He once also asked a fellow doctoral candidate: "I was catholic... which religion did you leave?"

Religious scientists are no ordinary believers.


...the figures of devout religious scientists are so low that claiming certain scientists are religious as some form of trend is pointless. You'd find more schizophrenics; alcoholics or delusional scientists than you would find Bible-bashers. More of them are sitting in padded rooms claiming to be Napoleon than are praying in Church on Sunday morning.


To put it in perspective; there are probably more blacks in the KKK than there are religious believers among top scientists.

Does that make the KKK a black organisation...? Does that make all ethnicities compatible with the KKK?



The Luke 
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« Reply #226 on: September 29, 2008, 09:52:50 AM »

...closer examination would show that the few scientists who do express religious belief generally have certain caveats:

-they believe in religion itself, not god.
Their belief being based on the worth of what Plato called "The Noble Lie" ie: religion does more good than harm, so it is worthwhile even if untrue. The "it's-good-for-other-people-to-believe" crowd.

-they believe in a sublime intelligence that produced the fundamental physical laws (like Einstein), not a personal god... but more of a "possible" creator akin to a non-interventionist Newtonian "Prime Mover".

-they are spiritualist or speculative deists... they have a gut feeling they're might be something behind the reality we see.

-they are mathematical deists: they believe in an impersonal; non-sentient set of mathematical laws whose expression is what we perceive as reality: some go so far as to liken insight into these laws to a quasi-religious revelation... a sort of initiatory mystery religion of science. But this is mostly romantic fancy and recognised as such even by those who partake of it. 

-they are self identified religious non-believers. If asked they say they are Catholic (or Protestant) as they identify such tradition as part of their identity... but they don't worship; pray or believe. As a physicist friend of mine said: "Religion? That's what one abandons to embrace reason... whichever tradition you come from isn't nearly as important as you having left it". He once also asked a fellow doctoral candidate: "I was catholic... which religion did you leave?"

Religious scientists are no ordinary believers.


...the figures of devout religious scientists are so low that claiming certain scientists are religious as some form of trend is pointless. You'd find more schizophrenics; alcoholics or delusional scientists than you would find Bible-bashers. More of them are sitting in padded rooms claiming to be Napoleon than are praying in Church on Sunday morning.


To put it in perspective; there are probably more blacks in the KKK than there are religious believers among top scientists.

Does that make the KKK a black organisation...? Does that make all ethnicities compatible with the KKK?



The Luke 

But none of this is true for the scientists that I...that Richard Dawkins listed.  These are not just scientists, but "good scientists" and not just deists, but "sincerely religious", devout Christians.
- Dawkins, Richard (2006). The God Delusion, 99. ISBN 0-618-68000-4.

And

Among the fathers of the so-called modern synthesis, Theodosius Dobzhansky was a Christian and something of an amateur theologian; Sir Ronald Fisher was a deeply devout Anglican who, between founding modern statistics and population genetics, penned articles for church magazines.
- H. Allen Orr, "Gould on God", Can religion and science be happily reconciled?
http://www.bostonreview.net/BR24.5/orr.html
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« Reply #227 on: September 29, 2008, 09:56:58 AM »

I disagree with Luke here cabron because the human mind is infinitely skilled at delusion, compartmentalisation and self-convinction. I think there are good scientists that are religious but I think it highly unlikely that it was their science which make them religious. Psychological delusion is a powerful thing and we all suffer from it to some extent.
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« Reply #228 on: September 29, 2008, 10:04:03 AM »

I disagree with Luke here cabron because the human mind is infinitely skilled at delusion, compartmentalisation and self-convinction. I think there are good scientists that are religious but I think it highly unlikely that it was their science which make them religious. Psychological delusion is a powerful thing and we all suffer from it to some extent.

"cabron" 

LOL   Grin


Deicide,
for the sake of the topic of this thread, based on what you just wrote above, would you agree that a deeply religious person, such as Ron Paul, can still make a good president just as much as those deeply religious people make good scientists?
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« Reply #229 on: September 29, 2008, 12:25:44 PM »

This thread is a prime example of what Bill Maher is talking about...

Religious morons misquoting and misrepresenting the other side of the argument so they can convince themselves they are right.

...which question? This one:
...I can't answer this as I never said I would vote for Ron Paul.
Am I actually being attacked for something I DIDN'T say...? How logical is that?

I'm sure loco could edit a quote of mine to make it seem that I did (as McWay has done to suit his own ends) but I was pretty explicit with some of my exceptions.

Loco already pointed that out, during his conversation with Deicide, " So what?  The Luke said that he'd vote for Ron Paul, and he gave the only reason why he would not vote for Ron Paul.  His one reason had nothing to do with Ron Paul's Christian beliefs.


To answer the question I assume is implied here.

Yes... if Ron Paul truly is a devout religious believer (there's no way we can know for sure as Vladimir Putin and many others also claim such yet their actions are at odds with Christian beliefs), but if he is truly a believer, then yes... Yes he is a fool. Such an irrational belief would immediately demote him from any intellectual status... perhaps he is quasi-rational; high functioning in some areas, yet unable to think rationally in other areas. 

Once again, if there's no way you can know for sure (and you CANNOT PRODUCE any actions of theirs that would betray their profession of faith), then you give them the benefit of the doubt. You haven't done that. Furthermore, that boneheaded statement of yours just proved what I've said from the start. You can't back your words, with regards to Obama, Paul, MLK, or anyone else.

The only reason you're suggesting that these men are atheists (at least, with King and Obama) is because of YOUR OWN PREJUDICIAL (but woefully lacking in fact) bent that religious people can't be intellectuals. That has been proven to be dead wrong, time and time and time again.


To top it all off, you said that the one issue you had with Paul was his economic policy, NOT his religious beliefs. Per your own twisted standards, the thought of perhaps voting for Paul should have VANISHED the second you learned that he was a Christian.

NONE of these men are atheists; NONE of them claim that there is no God or support positions or have taken actions that would suggest their lack of belief in a supernatural deity. Therefore, your proclaiming that they are atheists, to save your contorted logic and figuratively exposed behind, is not only false, it's just plain DUMB!





To clarify... yes, there are NO religious scientists.

Incorrect, once again, as I listed a handful of them earlier: Louis Pasteur, Kurt Wise, Robin Crossman, Ben Carson, Duane Gish, and that's merely the short list.


Quoting a list of ten; or twenty religious academics doesn't negate the validity of this statement.

The list is far longer; again, no one claimed that such is exhaustive. Once again, your pitiful takes get cut to ribbons; so, you're scrambling to make excuses.


Roughly a thousand Nobel Prizes have been awarded in the sciences (usually teams win)... maybe two or three of these scientists are religious. So the objection here is regarding the 0.01% who express some form of religious/spiritual belief.

That's fine by me... I'm happy to be only 99.9% right when my detractors are 99.9% wrong.

The Luke

Last time I checked, winning a Nobel prize was NOT A REQUIREMENT to be an intellectual. There are plenty of intellectuals who don't win them. Basically, it goes like this. Your attempt to rationalize why you'd potentally vote for someone, who is a Christian, while struggling to claim that he's actually atheist, is perhaps the most feeble and foolish gesturing I've ever seen. The only thing that might trump that is your spineless, limp-wristed whining about people twisting your words, even though those words are in plain sight, in black-and-white, in full context, for all to see.

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« Reply #230 on: September 29, 2008, 12:36:15 PM »

"cabron" 

LOL   Grin


Deicide,
for the sake of the topic of this thread, based on what you just wrote above, would you agree that a deeply religious person, such as Ron Paul, can still make a good president just as much as those deeply religious people make good scientists?

As long as they keep their delusion to themselves. Ron Paul is really a borderline case; I think though, in these times, one needs to overlook his religious lunacy.

People can be delusional and still do other things well. I used to believe in the power of astrology in my youth.
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« Reply #231 on: September 29, 2008, 12:42:25 PM »

As long as they keep their delusion to themselves. Ron Paul is really a borderline case; I think though, in these times, one needs to overlook his religious lunacy.

People can be delusional and still do other things well. I used to believe in the power of astrology in my youth.

Notwithstanding the disagreement with the claims of his faith being "delusional", Luke isn't even doing that. Everytime he finds an "intellectual" he likes, who happens to be a Christian, he feebly attempts to explain away their Christian faith to untie the philosophical knot, in which he finds himself.
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« Reply #232 on: September 30, 2008, 12:16:40 PM »

McWay mentioned Dr. Ben Carson, who is arguably the leading neurosurgeon in the world and a devout Christian.  How does The Luke characterize Dr. Carson?   
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The Luke
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« Reply #233 on: September 30, 2008, 03:52:34 PM »

McWay mentioned Dr. Ben Carson, who is arguably the leading neurosurgeon in the world and a devout Christian.  How does The Luke characterize Dr. Carson?   

...I'll have to look this up. There have been lots of physicists; archaeologists; historians; geologists etc pushed as "pro-Creation scientific experts" by Creationists only to be exposed as charlatans later on.

There's a list maintained at...
http://www.adherents.com/people/100_Nobel.html
...and quoted/promulgated on many religious sites, of "50 Nobel Laureates and Other Great Scientists Who Believe in God".

Read just the first three names... none of them were religious.

The rest of this impressive list is equally ridiculous.


The Luke
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« Reply #234 on: September 30, 2008, 04:04:02 PM »

...I'll have to look this up. There have been lots of physicists; archaeologists; historians; geologists etc pushed as "pro-Creation scientific experts" by Creationists only to be exposed as charlatans later on.

There's a list maintained at...
http://www.adherents.com/people/100_Nobel.html
...and quoted/promulgated on many religious sites, of "50 Nobel Laureates and Other Great Scientists Who Believe in God".

Read just the first three names... none of them were religious.

The rest of this impressive list is equally ridiculous.


The Luke

I'll help you.  Here is some info:

A pediatric neurosurgeon of world-renown, and a mentor to countless individuals of all ages, Benjamin S. Carson, Sr., M.D., carries with him his message of hope for and faith in the human spirit and the remarkable ability of the human brain. To all who say that circumstances in their lives have made personal success impossible, Dr. Carson, director of pediatric neurosurgery at the Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions, is living proof that perseverance, prayer, and self-respect, combined with a devotion to acquiring knowledge, can overcome any obstacles in one's way.

http://www.drbencarson.com/

A committed Christian, Dr. Carson places the values of God and family above all other considerations in his life. He turns for guidance to the word of God, and to his family and church community for strength and the moral compass to keep steady in his endeavors and at peace.

http://www.drbencarson.com/faith.html
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garebear
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« Reply #235 on: September 30, 2008, 04:13:37 PM »

Just save your breath, you masturbators.

There is no God and Americans are incredibly stupid.

Now fuck off.
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« Reply #236 on: September 30, 2008, 04:17:13 PM »

Just save your breath, you masturbators.

There is no God and Americans are incredibly stupid.

Now fuck off.

Wow you just proved James Phoenix and TheLukes Theory that Athiests are more intelligent than Christians.

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #237 on: September 30, 2008, 05:21:09 PM »

Wow you just proved James Phoenix and TheLukes Theory that Athiests are more intelligent than Christians.

 Roll Eyes

LOL

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« Reply #238 on: September 30, 2008, 05:31:18 PM »

Just save your breath, you masturbators.

There is no God and Americans are incredibly stupid.

Now fuck off.

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« Reply #239 on: August 13, 2015, 07:42:45 PM »

I'll help you.  Here is some info:

A pediatric neurosurgeon of world-renown, and a mentor to countless individuals of all ages, Benjamin S. Carson, Sr., M.D., carries with him his message of hope for and faith in the human spirit and the remarkable ability of the human brain. To all who say that circumstances in their lives have made personal success impossible, Dr. Carson, director of pediatric neurosurgery at the Johns Hopkins Medical Institutions, is living proof that perseverance, prayer, and self-respect, combined with a devotion to acquiring knowledge, can overcome any obstacles in one's way.

http://www.drbencarson.com/

A committed Christian, Dr. Carson places the values of God and family above all other considerations in his life. He turns for guidance to the word of God, and to his family and church community for strength and the moral compass to keep steady in his endeavors and at peace.

http://www.drbencarson.com/faith.html


Oh my. 

Was it AFTER this, that he did what he did?
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« Reply #240 on: August 14, 2015, 08:43:21 AM »

Good thread.   Smiley
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