the importance of both heavy weight and high reps.

[First Blood]

muscles grow from progressive increase of tension on them. tension is not exactly same as the weight on the bar (but can be used as a proxy for tension), but you do have to get stronger to grow. the classical 6-12 rep range is a good rep range for bodybuilders.

in addition to tension you need to do a certain amount of work ('metabolic fatigue') with that tension and cause a certain level of damage. this is something I read a review about last week.

[dj181]

P.S. If one uses a heavy enough weight, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to move the weight too fast. So me a guy who can bench press a 300 pound barbell with too much speed, then you will show me a guy who should be using a 400 pound barbell, and not a 300 pound barbell

[Cableguy]

Or Branch
 Or Ruhl
 Or Kahn
 Or Fux
 Or ......

Or Victor
Or Benfatto
Or Toney
Or Cormier
Or Stallone
Or Platz
Or Milos
Or Ronnie...etc, etc...

[Master Blaster]

Allright, so y'all is saying that one can increase the workload without increasing the weight on the bar, so how can this be done, by increasing the number of reps, and thus the length of the set? If that is so, then how's come the most massive runners are the short sprint guys? 100 meters and under. Even the 400 meter guys are quite a bit less muscled than the short sprint guys.

Obviously theres a bell curve, where there are diminishing returns + the fact that long distance running is aerobic excercise and stresses the body differently. Also if you took two people of the same weight and bodyfat percentage, the one who did no exercise would have slightly smaller legs than the one who ran long distance. 

[wes]

If two people of equal strength do the same exact workout, using the same exact poundages, for the same exact amount of reps,but it takes one guy two hours to complete,and the other guy only 45 minutes to complete,who trained harder?

More work done in less time = intensity of effort............. and using intensity techniques such as pre-exhaust,drop-sets,super-sets,tri-sets,etc.etc.,and a good mind muscle connection =a far better way to train than to just simply slap more plates on the bar.

No one can increase their strength forever without hitting a ceiling.

[g101]

PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD IS WHAT WORKS.

atleast it does for me i will always train within with 6-10 reps (higher reps not more than 15 for lower body)

PUMP DOES NOT EQUAL MUSCLE GROWTH

[chaos]

LOL @ making lifting weights into rocket science.

[Master Blaster]

No one can increase their strength forever without hitting a ceiling.

This is everything

[First Blood]

PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD IS WHAT WORKS.

atleast it does for me i will always train within with 6-10 reps (higher reps not more than 15 for lower body)

PUMP DOES NOT EQUAL MUSCLE GROWTH

yes and the gh15 bible confirms it!! 6-10 is good for upper body...6-15 for legs! do a short heavy workout then get out, stimulate but don't annihilate!!

sometimes you go down to 4 reps or so but most of the training should be done in the above mentioned rep range.

have some waffles and liquid egg whites before the workout and a cup of coffee!! then 45-60min of intense training! leave the ego at home for an hour.

[the_steevo_uk]

Something a lot of people seem to be missing, especially the "STRENGTH = SIZE" proponents is that WORKLOAD is NOT EQUAL to the WEIGHT ON THE BAR!!!

As people keep trying to drill into your brain over and over, it's about HOW YOU LIFT IT.  Yes, to get bigger muscles you have to increase the stress on the muscle, but that DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO INCREASE THE WEIGHT.

People who have huge quads and squat three plates do it with perfect form, very smooth, controlled, focus on the negative, all this serves to make the muscle work much harder with the fixed resistance (315 lbs).  You will see kids all the time throw on 3.5, 4 plates, even more who have gimpy little legs.  Some of that is due to neurological efficiency, and some of it is do to SHITTY FORM.  Powerlifting form, for bodybuilding purposes, is SHITTY.  They do everything in their power to LESSEN THE WORKLOAD on their muscles, so that 900lb squat becomes equivalent to 500 lbs work that the muscle has to do -- they change the leverages, have bad depth, use special suits, distribute the load across as many muscles as possible, etc etc.

When a powerlifter switches over to bodybuilding a la matt kroc, do you see him saying "well gee I've squatted 1013 lbs so I guess to get bigger legs and glutes I need to squat 1015... after all, size = strength right???" NO!  He goes down and works with weights in the 400-500 lbs range, changing his form and number of reps so that the MUSCLES have to do the most work, no more utilizing leverage, crappy form, get it up at all cost, mentality, which are all designed to make the resistance on the bar translate into as little muscular work as possible.

So yes, you have to increase the stress on the muscles to make them grow... looking around the gym, i see 99% of kids could use lighter weight and better form to achieve more massive muscles.

In bodybuilding, it's not about how much weight you can lift, it's about how much you can get the weight you are lifting to work for you.  Look at ANY big guy in the gym.  Perfect form, I guarantee it.  Sure there is the occasional Ron Coleman, Branch Warren, total freakish, indestructible joints + they're probably showing off for a video whenever you see them.

In summary: yes you have to increase the workload on the muscles, however in most cases this does not mean increasing the weight on the bar!!!

For the record I put ten pounds on my legs, with extremely noticeable visual changes in 2 months never lifting more than 115 on squats.  I did one set for time, 2 minutes the first week, adding 20 seconds to the clock every workout up until about 5 minutes.  Followed up with two excruciating sets of leg extensions no more than 135-150lbs and a couple leg curls.  Most people would say that wouldn't work.  Too many reps, not anaerobic work, wrong energy systems etc. etc... of course they have never tried it for themselves.

This is the best post on this discussion by far. End of thread

[Meso_z]

LOL @ making lifting weights into rocket science.

I try to do from 6.345329-12.4598 reps on all bodyparts. I also have a "log" and bring it with me. Im actually too busy between sets writing on the log so dont you ever bother me. I also make sure to wear a "HIT" t shirt to show that i follow the "principles"...

[WillGrant]

This is the best post on this discussion by far. End of thread

x2 Good post Cephissus

[slaveboy1980]

 

[suckmymuscle]

Muscles can get stronger without getting bigger.

  I said that muscles can become stronger either by increasing the number of sarcomeres(size of the muscle) or the ability to recruit sarcomeres(neuromuscular efficiency). You said strength gains come mostly from increased tendom strength. You: 100% wrong.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

[Schmoe Buster]

This is the best post on this discussion by far. End of thread

X3

[JP_RC]

Something a lot of people seem to be missing, especially the "STRENGTH = SIZE" proponents is that WORKLOAD is NOT EQUAL to the WEIGHT ON THE BAR!!!

As people keep trying to drill into your brain over and over, it's about HOW YOU LIFT IT.  Yes, to get bigger muscles you have to increase the stress on the muscle, but that DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO INCREASE THE WEIGHT.

People who have huge quads and squat three plates do it with perfect form, very smooth, controlled, focus on the negative, all this serves to make the muscle work much harder with the fixed resistance (315 lbs).  You will see kids all the time throw on 3.5, 4 plates, even more who have gimpy little legs.  Some of that is due to neurological efficiency, and some of it is do to SHITTY FORM.  Powerlifting form, for bodybuilding purposes, is SHITTY.  They do everything in their power to LESSEN THE WORKLOAD on their muscles, so that 900lb squat becomes equivalent to 500 lbs work that the muscle has to do -- they change the leverages, have bad depth, use special suits, distribute the load across as many muscles as possible, etc etc.

When a powerlifter switches over to bodybuilding a la matt kroc, do you see him saying "well gee I've squatted 1013 lbs so I guess to get bigger legs and glutes I need to squat 1015... after all, size = strength right???" NO!  He goes down and works with weights in the 400-500 lbs range, changing his form and number of reps so that the MUSCLES have to do the most work, no more utilizing leverage, crappy form, get it up at all cost, mentality, which are all designed to make the resistance on the bar translate into as little muscular work as possible.

So yes, you have to increase the stress on the muscles to make them grow... looking around the gym, i see 99% of kids could use lighter weight and better form to achieve more massive muscles.

In bodybuilding, it's not about how much weight you can lift, it's about how much you can get the weight you are lifting to work for you.  Look at ANY big guy in the gym.  Perfect form, I guarantee it.  Sure there is the occasional Ron Coleman, Branch Warren, total freakish, indestructible joints + they're probably showing off for a video whenever you see them.

In summary: yes you have to increase the workload on the muscles, however in most cases this does not mean increasing the weight on the bar!!!

For the record I put ten pounds on my legs, with extremely noticeable visual changes in 2 months never lifting more than 115 on squats.  I did one set for time, 2 minutes the first week, adding 20 seconds to the clock every workout up until about 5 minutes.  Followed up with two excruciating sets of leg extensions no more than 135-150lbs and a couple leg curls.  Most people would say that wouldn't work.  Too many reps, not anaerobic work, wrong energy systems etc. etc... of course they have never tried it for themselves.

great post.

[caseyviator]

Super heavy = muscle tear FACT

im living proof of this and always trained without cheating cause it does u no good in a pl meet.
i had to switch to bodybuilding comp from powerlifting cause of many tears that required surgery
knees, shoulder, pec, neck

all in all i wish i only did bodybuilding and no reps under 4 ever!!!!!!!!!!  this for me was the tear zone!!
i like bodybuilding trainin much more and results in muscle growth are nite and day for me
315 for 10 is much better than 405 for 4 imo!! atleast when ur 200lbs give or take.

fact-eventually heavy weight kills tendons!!   imo!!

[Option D]

LOL @ making lifting weights into rocket science.

Exactly.. WTF.. lift weights

[Marty Champions]

lift the damn thing as much as you can! THAT IS ALL!

[dj181]

I liked what Arthur Jones had to say about it, and that was basically stay with heavy weights until you get strong enough to use those heavy weights, meaning work up to 3 plates on a side for the big 3, and then stay there, but bump up the reps. He said something like, once you get up to 3 plates a side for a decent amount of reps, then you will be as big as you need to be.

[tbombz]

 everybody has a point to make in this thread and everybody has a little bit of truth i there post


can lifting heavy cause injury? yes.

will doing high reps cause some growth even without heavy weight?  sure, at least for a while.



theres a ton more i could address... but listen...  BOTH HEAVY WEIGHTS AND HIGH REPS ARE NECESSARY IN ORDER TO GROW AND GAIN STRENGTH OPTIMALLY. i am not getting into the scientific reasons behind this, like the fact that high reps cause the buildup  of satellite cells or the fact that progressive overload is the only way to cause myofibrial hypertrophy.  im talking strictly what works


 heres a few key points to take into consideration:

-heavy weights does not necessarily mean powerflifting of using bad form. it means pushing your muscles as hard as you can in the lower rep ranges. and yes, this implies proper form and making the muscle work as hard as possible.


-high reps does not mean high volume nor does it mean light weight. it simply means that you do at least a few sets in the upper rep ranges using good form and squeezing the muscle.

[Ursus]

 I said that muscles can become stronger either by increasing the number of sarcomeres(size of the muscle) or the ability to recruit sarcomeres(neuromuscular efficiency). You said strength gains come mostly from increased tendom strength. You: 100% wrong.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

A bench shirt acts as 'extra tendons'.

[Master Blaster]

This is the best post on this discussion by far. End of thread

X 4 WE HAVE OUR WINNER

[tbombz]

If two people of equal strength do the same exact workout, using the same exact poundages, for the same exact amount of reps,but it takes one guy two hours to complete,and the other guy only 45 minutes to complete,who trained harder?

More work done in less time = intensity of effort............. and using intensity techniques such as pre-exhaust,drop-sets,super-sets,tri-sets,etc.etc.,and a good mind muscle connection =a far better way to train than to just simply slap more plates on the bar.

No one can increase their strength forever without hitting a ceiling.

  pre exaust, drop sets, and other fatigue-ing methods can be beneficial. but you still have to have to use heavier weights after a while or else youll adapt and wont grow anymore.

[cephissus]

Thanks guys