If Mentzers methods were working well, why no champion apprentice?

[Fatpanda]

FP, way to ruin a thread.

be careful twink 

[dj181]

Speaking of Mentzer, when do you'll think that his training methods reached their peak? His old-school 4 times a week body split into halves and each muscle trained twice weekly was a bit overkill, but his consolidated 2 compound exercises once a week was under kill, in my opinion. Remember there is over-training, and there is also under-training.

[Fatpanda]

i think that once steroids were introduced it skewed all potential for knowing what works during hit/hd.

what has been proven steroids or not is that you can build a tremendous physique with a hell of a lot less volume than 20 sets per bodypart.

[Mr Nobody]

Mentzers methods were a "spin off" from Arthur Jones. He actually took Arthur's stuff and refined it. Pending genetics on recovery is the key with progression so a individual needs to find that "correct" amount of time between heavy sessions that fits them, some clients he had trained once a week some more often however the overall principles are solid.

[disco_stu]

Mentzers methods were a "spin off" from Arthur Jones. He actually took Arthur's stuff and refined it. Pending genetics on recovery is the key with progression so a individual needs to find that "correct" amount of time between heavy sessions that fits them, some clients he had trained once a week some more often however the overall principles are solid.

x2

[SilverSpoon]

be careful twink 

Seriously? 
I'm not one to ever engage in internet battles, but you appear to invite them, despite the photographic evidence that you may in fact suffer from clinical delusions.
I train in a HIT fashion, can see visible abdominals, have never been over 20% bf (even at 218), have a family, have a job, and my products (Kiehl's) are clearly superiour.

[no one]

i think that once steroids were introduced it skewed all potential for knowing what works during hit/hd.

what has been proven steroids or not is that you can build a tremendous physique with a hell of a lot less volume than 20 sets per bodypart.

yeah, we can tell.

[dj181]

One of the major differences btw Jones' and Mentzer's application of HIT is that Jones advocated full-body workouts, while Mentzer advocated split routines. I especially like the idea of hard and brief training, but I think that frequency should be rather often on a split routine, just my 2 cents.

[Mr Nobody]

One of the major differences btw Jones' and Mentzer's application of HIT is that Jones advocated full-body workouts, while Mentzer advocated split routines. I especially like the idea of hard and brief training, but I think that frequency should be rather often on a split routine, just my 2 cents.

Yep. X2.

[Fatpanda]

Seriously? 
I'm not one to ever engage in internet battles, but you appear to invite them, despite the photographic evidence that you may in fact suffer from clinical delusions.
I train in a HIT fashion, can see visible abdominals, have never been over 20% bf (even at 218), have a family, have a job, and my products (Kiehl's) are clearly superiour.

yet you feel the need to address me in a negative fashion for reasons you have no understanding of.

it is a message board - where anyone can say what they like.

it is possible for some people with a brain to ignore posts they are not interested in and focus on the topic that does.

i manager to go back and forth with 30 odd people on here on a daily basis from thread to thread while still typing things about the thread topic at hand - it causes no one else a problem.

if i suffer from delusion perhaps you suffer from attention deficit disorder.

and a severe lack of self esteem from you need to tell me you have a family  congratulations millions of people all over the world have families  you have a job  congratulations  i don't know what cleaning products have to do with anything  but congratulations  its a pity your spelling wasn't as superior 

now you want a medal ?

p.s. shut your fucking mouth fag.

[Fatpanda]

yeah, we can tell.

yes we can.

however i'm sure your boatloads of gear and your volume workouts gave you a physique to prove them wrong didn't it....... eh hold on a min:

[SilverSpoon]

yet you feel the need to address me in a negative fashion for reasons you have no understanding of.

it is a message board - where anyone can say what they like.

it is possible for some people with a brain to ignore posts they are not interested in and focus on the topic that does.

i manager to go back and forth with 30 odd people on here on a daily basis from thread to thread while still typing things about the thread topic at hand - it causes no one else a problem.

if i suffer from delusion perhaps you suffer from attention deficit disorder.

and a severe lack of self esteem from you need to tell me you have a family  congratulations millions of people all over the world have families  you have a job  congratulations  i don't know what cleaning products have to do with anything  but congratulations  its a pity your spelling wasn't as superior 

now you want a medal ?

p.s. shut your fucking mouth fag.

Learn to take a joke.
I have wished you well in other posts, but am merely taking the piss in this discussion.
I used to speak somewhat frequently with Mike on the phone, due to his relationship with my former boss, Roger Schwab.
We even discussed what we were reading for leisure.
We were friendly until one e-mail exchange which took place eerily close to his death.
It involved his commenting on a book I was reading, Persig's Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which he said was filled with mysticism and lacked objectivity.

I could tell that he clearly never read the book, or its sequel, due to the fact that he must not have read the full title, which includes "An Iquiry Into Values".
I called him on his area of ignorance, and he left a drunken, expletive riddled message on my voicemail. 
I saved it for a time, and it became a cause for laughter between myself and a fellow Mentzerite.  We grew sweet mustaches in his honour.

[dj181]

Hey Silverspoon, I'm curious man, were you and Mentzer discussing training within these said phone conversations? And if yes, is this when he was rather hell-bent on everyone doing his consolidation routine?

[dj181]

P.S. I know that I'm gonna catch a beating from some of the HIT purists with this one, but I am conviced that 3 work sets for the same exercise are vastly superior to 1 set of the same exercise. I have tried both protocols, and for me 3 sets are vastly superior to 1 set

[SilverSpoon]

DJ, for some bizarre reason, I became obsessed over repetition "cadence" at about this time in my training "career" (that sounds so lame).
What is interesting to me, is that these SuperSlow (or as Trevor Smith would call them--ZMRs) had a very positive effect on my quadriceps when using the MedX leg extension and MedX leg press.
Unfortunately for me, I had devolved into doing too few repetitions, because concommitant with "cadence", I became interesting in TUL or TUT (time under load or time under tension), and truly believed that any exercise over 60 seconds was not worth doing.  I was wrong on this count as well, as I have had a very good overally "metabolic effect" (how can you measure that?) by doing squat sets of up to 30 repetitions (sort of like Dante's widowmakers--yet another spin/take on HIT).
Because I have been a lifetime natural, and wanted to achieve great results, I developed a laser beam focus on the minutia, and forgot the big fucking picture of what I was initially in the gym to do--bodybuild!!!  

To answer your question (sorry I digressed in the first instance), Mike pretty much wanted everyone on the consolodation routine at this point, either 3 exercises full body (almost an exact copy of Dr. Doug McGuff's "Ultimate Exercise" program) done once per week, or the two exercise program, rotating deadlift/incline press with squat/pulldown every 4-7 days.

Mike thought that due to the fact that I was facing so many of life's stressors (job, law school) that the consolodation routine was the right fit for me.  I must admit that my physique didn't necessarily suffer at the time, but I did accumulate some bodyfat because I like to eat, and I wasn't training enough (intensity is never a problem for me) to adequately gain muscle mass.  In essence, I became deconditioned, partly due to not keeping stricter dietary standards with so little training.  

I could go on and on about my own training experience (mostly failures), but this is not about me.

[SilverSpoon]

P.S. I know that I'm gonna catch a beating from some of the HIT purists with this one, but I am conviced that 3 work sets for the same exercise are vastly superior to 1 set of the same exercise. I have tried both protocols, and for me 3 sets are vastly superior to 1 set

Your findings mirror mine, for upper body.
For some reason, I respond very well to one working set for lower body, specifically regarding squats.  Of course, for the past year and a half I have favored the high rep range (20-30 repetitions, which means 15+ are done in continuous fashion, with no pausing at the top), so that may have a lot to do with it.
I have taken the last 2 weeks off due to work/holiday/baby keeping me awake, but I start training again tomorrow, and I am just going to have a lot of fun.

[dj181]

I also "experimented" with a moderately slow rep cadence 4 sec postive and a 4 sec negative with a total TUL of around 60 to 100 seconds and, quite frankly, it didn't do shit for me. I'm convinced that the set was just too damn long! I've finally "seen the light" so to speak and "remembered" what worked best for me. Namely 3 to 4 works sets of 1 compound movement for Push and 1 compound movement for Pull staying within the 4 to 6 reps per set range. And with this protocol, a set lasts no more than 20 seconds. And also, like you, I have "discovered" that 1 working set for Legs at a higher rep range, 10-15 reps, works best for legs.

[SilverSpoon]

Well, there you go.
We could write a very brief book about bodybuilding.
It would be one page, and look strikingly similar to shit that Peary Rader wrote in IronMan 50-60 years ago.

[dj181]

Sounds good man! And at the title of this book would be: PROGRESSIVE OVERLOAD IS THE END ALL BE ALL OF MUSCULAR GROWTH AND DEVELOPMENT, or something to that effect