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Author Topic: Montreal Screw Job: Work or Shoot?  (Read 4622 times)
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« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2011, 10:44:40 AM »

This is all hindsight speculation.

Of course.
The same can be said for both/any sides of the debate.

The only three people who know for absolute certain - either way - are Vince, Shawn, and Bret.
There may be others, but these people are the only ones of whom we know for sure.

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« Reply #26 on: January 11, 2011, 01:08:11 PM »

Of course.
The same can be said for both/any sides of the debate.

The only three people who know for absolute certain - either way - are Vince, Shawn, and Bret.
There may be others, but these people are the only ones of whom we know for sure.


And I guarantee you they all went on a fishing trip together after the fact and said, "We got them good!".
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« Reply #27 on: January 11, 2011, 01:34:43 PM »

Re-read your post, champ. You are BELIEVING in the storyline. Its all KAYFABE. Make belief! NOT REAL.

The Survivor Series screwjob wasn't part of a "storyline". Bret Hart and the entire Hart family would attest to that.

The only reason people like you are screaming that it was kayfabe was because McMahon somehow turned the lowest point of his company around and brought the WWF back to the top.

We know Bret didn't like losing in Canada. At the time, he loathed Shawn Michaels. Asking him to drop the title to Michaels in Canada was more than Bret Hart's ego could bear.

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« Reply #28 on: January 11, 2011, 01:47:23 PM »

And I guarantee you they all went on a fishing trip together after the fact and said, "We got them good!".


I don't know...
I think if it was a work, then they went 100% old-school and kayfabed 24/7.
That's the only way it would work, and it's how I would wholeheartedly expect them to do it.

It's not hard to imagine, either.
Hell, look how many guys for how many years kayfabed their own families.

We used to joke that David Sammartino would have faired better in WWF had Bruno smartened him up, first!
 Grin
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« Reply #29 on: January 11, 2011, 02:26:28 PM »

The Survivor Series screwjob wasn't part of a "storyline". Bret Hart and the entire Hart family would attest to that.

The only reason people like you are screaming that it was kayfabe was because McMahon somehow turned the lowest point of his company around and brought the WWF back to the top.

We know Bret didn't like losing in Canada. At the time, he loathed Shawn Michaels. Asking him to drop the title to Michaels in Canada was more than Bret Hart's ego could bear.


First off, wrestling is all staged. Secondly, it works two ways. Shawn didn't want to retrn the job to hart either at WM13. He faked a knee injury instead which he openly admitted years after the fact. Thirdly, Vince didn't turn his company around. It was The Undertaker, Austin and the Rock's popularity combined with Eric Bishoff giving away the RAW results which resulted in WWE's ratings going up once people found out Foley was winning the title. More importantly as I said before, the impending lawsuits would have be ludacris had this been "real". There would have been assult charges, breach of contract, negligance, etc not to mention chaos backstage. You would have had a CEO with hospitalized with the side of his face caved in and funny part is, no one saw Vince "being hit".
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2011, 08:47:19 AM »

First off, wrestling is all staged. Secondly, it works two ways. Shawn didn't want to retrn the job to hart either at WM13. He faked a knee injury instead which he openly admitted years after the fact. Thirdly, Vince didn't turn his company around. It was The Undertaker, Austin and the Rock's popularity combined with Eric Bishoff giving away the RAW results which resulted in WWE's ratings going up once people found out Foley was winning the title. More importantly as I said before, the impending lawsuits would have be ludacris had this been "real". There would have been assult charges, breach of contract, negligance, etc not to mention chaos backstage. You would have had a CEO with hospitalized with the side of his face caved in and funny part is, no one saw Vince "being hit".

Listen to what you just said. Undertaker has been with WWE for 8 years. And he was there, when WWE was getting KILLED by WCW. Yes, he did keep the company afloat, especially by putting over Kane. That rivalry drew interest in WWE.

Austin's popularity? Guess who Austin's main foil was in late '97 and '98? "Mr. McMahon", the hyper-active characterization of Vince McMahon, based on (you guessed it) the Survivor Series Screwjob.

And for his face being caved in, you act as if Vince McMahon is a midget. He's a large man, himself. And, why would Vince need to sue. The deal was done with WCW. Bret was leaving; and, at the end of the day, Vince made sure that Bret didn't leave with his belt and that Eric Bischoff didn't go on Nitro and announce that he just bought the then-WWF Champion.

On top of that, Bischoff was giving away the taped RAW results for two years. By the time, he had Tony Schiavone announce that Mankind was going to win the WWF title, WWF had already surpassed WCW in the ratings.
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« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2011, 10:03:18 AM »

Listen to what you just said. Undertaker has been with WWE for 8 years. And he was there, when WWE was getting KILLED by WCW. Yes, he did keep the company afloat, especially by putting over Kane. That rivalry drew interest in WWE.

Austin's popularity? Guess who Austin's main foil was in late '97 and '98? "Mr. McMahon", the hyper-active characterization of Vince McMahon, based on (you guessed it) the Survivor Series Screwjob.

And for his face being caved in, you act as if Vince McMahon is a midget. He's a large man, himself. And, why would Vince need to sue. The deal was done with WCW. Bret was leaving; and, at the end of the day, Vince made sure that Bret didn't leave with his belt and that Eric Bischoff didn't go on Nitro and announce that he just bought the then-WWF Champion.

On top of that, Bischoff was giving away the taped RAW results for two years. By the time, he had Tony Schiavone announce that Mankind was going to win the WWF title, WWF had already surpassed WCW in the ratings.
1. Undertaker has been with the WWE for 20 years. He started in Nov 1990 at SS and we are now in 2011. That equates to 20 yrs. Not 8.

2. Bishoff was giving Raw results away for only 4 weeks before it was the result that Mankind was winning the title unexpectedly off the Rock on Raw which drew peoples interest as they wanted to see Foley win his first title. That is what brought the ratings back  the WWE along with the boom of the attitude era.

3. Undertaker NEVER put Kane over. To put someone over means you lose to them in a clean pinfall. This never happened. Undertaker defeated Kane at their WM match and again a month later at the next PPV in an inferno match. In their series of house matches Kane was disqualified.

Now here's a repost to help you understand the art of Kayfabe (staged product).

Ok...i'll repost for you "wrestling expert"

Here....maybe this will help understand the art of "Kayfabe" (staged):

In 1982, Lawler began a notorious feud with comedian Andy Kaufman.[2] At the time, Kaufman wrestled women as part of his skits and had declared himself the Intergender Heavyweight Champion.[2] On April 5, Lawler, who had taken exception to the skits, wrestled Kaufman in Memphis.[2] During the course of the match, Lawler delivered two piledrivers to his opponent, sending him to the hospital.[2] On July 29, Lawler slapped Kaufman in the face on an episode of Late Night with David Letterman.[2][4] Kaufman responded by throwing his coffee on Lawler.[2] Everyone including the high ups in the wrestling world believed that this was a real legitamate shoot when in face its was NOT.Years later, Lawler appeared as himself in the Kaufman biopic Man on the Moon; the movie revealed that Lawler's feud with Kaufman had been kayfabe (staged). Lawler later revealed that not only was his entire feud with Kaufman staged, but the two were actually very good friends

The same water holds for the screwjob, the same water holds for the Mr.McMahon charactor. Its an act! Not real! Vince capitalized on his "heat" reaction from the crowd from the "screwjob" and turned it into a money making saga. Just like the heat between Hart & Michaels backstage when they got into a fight(s) and disagreements Vince turned it into a money making fued. Same deal with Edge & Matt Hardy over Lita's affections. Vince turned it into a money making fued and it was one of the better fueds and one of Matt Hardy's better performances in their series of matches. It draws more viewers. Vince is a genius for that.

 
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« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2011, 02:05:48 PM »

1. Undertaker has been with the WWE for 20 years. He started in Nov 1990 at SS and we are now in 2011. That equates to 20 yrs. Not 8.

I was referring Undertaker's working with Kane in 1998. At that point, he'd been with WWE for about 8 years. I know when 'Taker debuted with WWE. I saw it live on PPV and taped it (the 1990 Survivor Series).



2. Bishoff was giving Raw results away for only 4 weeks before it was the result that Mankind was winning the title unexpectedly off the Rock on Raw which drew peoples interest as they wanted to see Foley win his first title. That is what brought the ratings back  the WWE along with the boom of the attitude era.

Not quite. In '96, Bischoff started doing that (and he may have started earlier than that). In particular, I recall when he gave away the results of a match between Vader and Fatu.



3. Undertaker NEVER put Kane over. To put someone over means you lose to them in a clean pinfall. This never happened. Undertaker defeated Kane at their WM match and again a month later at the next PPV in an inferno match. In their series of house matches Kane was disqualified.

Putting someone over means you establish them as being legitimate, at (or near) the same level as yourself. Plus, Kane beat Undertaker on Raw to become the #1 Contender for the WWE title (hence, the "First Blood" match he has with Austin at the '98 King of the Ring. Kane won the title, only to lose it back to Austin the next night on RAW).

Further proof that putting someone over doesn't necessitate that someone beating you is AUSTIN, himself. How did Austin get established as a star? It was with his feud with Bret Hart. In case you forgot, Austin LOST most of his matches to Bret Hart, starting at the '96 Survivor Series. The match that really put Austin over was the "Submission Match" at WrestleMania 13, which we all know Austin also LOST.

 


Now here's a repost to help you understand the art of Kayfabe (staged product).

Ok...i'll repost for you "wrestling expert"

Here....maybe this will help understand the art of "Kayfabe" (staged):

In 1982, Lawler began a notorious feud with comedian Andy Kaufman.[2] At the time, Kaufman wrestled women as part of his skits and had declared himself the Intergender Heavyweight Champion.[2] On April 5, Lawler, who had taken exception to the skits, wrestled Kaufman in Memphis.[2] During the course of the match, Lawler delivered two piledrivers to his opponent, sending him to the hospital.[2] On July 29, Lawler slapped Kaufman in the face on an episode of Late Night with David Letterman.[2][4] Kaufman responded by throwing his coffee on Lawler.[2] Everyone including the high ups in the wrestling world believed that this was a real legitamate shoot when in face its was NOT.Years later, Lawler appeared as himself in the Kaufman biopic Man on the Moon; the movie revealed that Lawler's feud with Kaufman had been kayfabe (staged). Lawler later revealed that not only was his entire feud with Kaufman staged, but the two were actually very good friends

The same water holds for the screwjob, the same water holds for the Mr.McMahon charactor. Its an act! Not real! Vince capitalized on his "heat" reaction from the crowd from the "screwjob" and turned it into a money making saga. Just like the heat between Hart & Michaels backstage when they got into a fight(s) and disagreements Vince turned it into a money making fued. Same deal with Edge & Matt Hardy over Lita's affections. Vince turned it into a money making fued and it was one of the better fueds and one of Matt Hardy's better performances in their series of matches. It draws more viewers. Vince is a genius for that.

 

One, Lawler's feud with Kauffman has zilch to do with the Survivor Series Screwjob. This incident almost ripped the company apart. And this is coming from the wrestlers. Remember that many of them DID NOT SHOW UP on Raw the next night or the week after that, based on what happened. There was legitimate dissent among the ranks. What, in my estimation, saved the company was Vince's actually telling the truth of what he did and why.

His job was to take care of his wrestlers, first and foremost. Bret Hart didn't want to job to Michaels in Canada, simple as that. Vince wasn't going to risk having Eric Bischoff brag about buying the WWF champion on Nitro. As I said some time ago, come hell or high water, Bret Hart was NOT leaving Survivor Series as champion, period.

Even with the "heat" from SS '97, it was still six months, at least, before RAW finally surpassed Nitro. And much of that was built off the heat of the "Mr. McMahon" character (based on the SS Screwjob) who would stoop to screwing Austin out of the WWF title (as he actually did with Bret Hart).

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« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2011, 02:14:50 PM »

I'm still in no way buying that A&E was allowed to air the footage, access to everything, etc... without vkm having final say and letting them air it.  To me, that is the biggest factor to weigh.  If it was a legit "screwjob" why would he allow that?  Not to mention no lawsuit to slow Bret down from going to WCW, etc... 
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« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2011, 02:45:41 PM »

This incident almost ripped the company apart. And this is coming from the wrestlers. Remember that many of them DID NOT SHOW UP on Raw the next night or the week after that, based on what happened. There was legitimate dissent among the ranks.


You can't use that fact to gauge the legitimacy of the events if Vince, Bret, and HBK were the only ones in on the angle.

If the boycotting wrestlers were not in on it, then of course they would react as though it was real because they didn't know any better.
 

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« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2011, 07:46:28 PM »


You can't use that fact to gauge the legitimacy of the events if Vince, Bret, and HBK were the only ones in on the angle.

If the boycotting wrestlers were not in on it, then of course they would react as though it was real because they didn't know any better.
 

Bret Hart and Vince McMahon had been butting heads about the direction of the company and the storylines. Remember the Goldust-Marc Mero feud? It started with the lesbian angle of Marlena (Terri Runnels) looking Sable up and down and licking her lips, while Sable was ringside, cheering for Marc Mero.

The storyline was that Marlena wanted Sable as her "pet". So, she charms Goldust to take out Mero, in order to have Sable for herself. Apparently, The Hitman wasn't cool with that; so, it was changed to Goldust wanting Sable instead. That's just one example.

The last thing McMahon wanted was to lose a top superstar to WCW.....well...except for the Ultimate Warrior. And with Bret's family (Bulldog, Neidhart, Owen) there, the odds of this being a work decreases further. Plus, there was the issue of Owen wanting to leave as well.

The screwjob was about one thing: Making sure Bret didn't leave with the WWF title and Bischoff didn't get on the air and announce he'd bought the WWF Champion.
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« Reply #36 on: January 14, 2011, 05:49:36 AM »

I'm still in no way buying that A&E was allowed to air the footage, access to everything, etc... without vkm having final say and letting them air it.  To me, that is the biggest factor to weigh.  If it was a legit "screwjob" why would he allow that?  Not to mention no lawsuit to slow Bret down from going to WCW, etc... 
Bullseye and that is what people need to understand!! I see Mcway has been clearly FOOLED into believing the storyline.
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« Reply #37 on: January 14, 2011, 07:15:44 AM »

Bret Hart and Vince McMahon had been butting heads about the direction of the company and the storylines. Remember the Goldust-Marc Mero feud? It started with the lesbian angle of Marlena (Terri Runnels) looking Sable up and down and licking her lips, while Sable was ringside, cheering for Marc Mero.

The storyline was that Marlena wanted Sable as her "pet". So, she charms Goldust to take out Mero, in order to have Sable for herself. Apparently, The Hitman wasn't cool with that; so, it was changed to Goldust wanting Sable instead. That's just one example.

The last thing McMahon wanted was to lose a top superstar to WCW.....well...except for the Ultimate Warrior. And with Bret's family (Bulldog, Neidhart, Owen) there, the odds of this being a work decreases further. Plus, there was the issue of Owen wanting to leave as well.

The screwjob was about one thing: Making sure Bret didn't leave with the WWF title and Bischoff didn't get on the air and announce he'd bought the WWF Champion.

You keep believing that, champ. Later on, call me and i'll introduce you to Santa  Wink  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #38 on: January 14, 2011, 07:52:01 AM »

There are lots of indications that point to this going either way, and some of them are quite convincing.
For every fact that suggests it was a shoot, there’s another that convinces you that it "had" to be a work.

Many points on both sides are worthy of consideration; some you cannot deny.
None of us here are qualified to draw any type of ABSOLUTE conclusions.
There are people who know for sure what went down that day.
The rest of us rely on conjecture.
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« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2011, 10:17:56 AM »

There are lots of indications that point to this going either way, and some of them are quite convincing.
For every fact that suggests it was a shoot, there’s another that convinces you that it "had" to be a work.

Many points on both sides are worthy of consideration; some you cannot deny.
None of us here are qualified to draw any type of ABSOLUTE conclusions.
There are people who know for sure what went down that day.
The rest of us rely on conjecture.


My take is that the only (or primary) reason some folks here think it's a work is because the WWF somehow rebounded to overtake WCW.

As stated earlier, the controversy from the Survivor Series Screwjob is the genesis for the "Mr. McMahon" character. That's why the feud with Austin had such teeth to it. McMahon actually screwed someone (Hart) out of the WWF title.

You keep believing that, champ. Later on, call me and i'll introduce you to Santa  Wink  Roll Eyes


Yea. McMahon was just dying to get rid of Bret Hart. "Here, WCW, have another one of my superstars!!"   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2011, 10:40:12 AM »

My take is that the only (or primary) reason some folks here think it's a work is because the WWF somehow rebounded to overtake WCW.

As stated earlier, the controversy from the Survivor Series Screwjob is the genesis for the "Mr. McMahon" character. That's why the feud with Austin had such teeth to it. McMahon actually screwed someone (Hart) out of the WWF title.

Yea. McMahon was just dying to get rid of Bret Hart. "Here, WCW, have another one of my superstars!!"   Roll Eyes
Wrong yet again, champ. McMahon TOLD Bret that he had to back out of their 20yr deal that would see Bret retire in WWE. He told him to take the contract with WCW which opened the doors for a return at a later date.

Its just a discussion. No money out of mine or anyone else's wallet for that matter, champ. In the end its all opinion.
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« Reply #41 on: January 14, 2011, 11:20:44 AM »

Wrong yet again, champ. McMahon TOLD Bret that he had to back out of their 20yr deal that would see Bret retire in WWE. He told him to take the contract with WCW which opened the doors for a return at a later date.

Its just a discussion. No money out of mine or anyone else's wallet for that matter, champ. In the end its all opinion.

I get that. McMahon said that during his interview with JR, after Survivor Series.

Bret sold out....and it's not a big deal, because I helped him do it. As I said, the issue wasn't Bret's leaving, per se. It was Bret's leaving as WWF CHAMPION and Bischoff spilling the beans on Nitro, while Bret still had the belt. (McMahon already got embarrased once with the Alundra Blayze/Madusa Micelli routine, throwing the WWF Women's title in the trash on Nitro, two years earlier).

Remember McMahon's speech about the "time-honored tradition" in the wrestling business. That was basically wrestling-ese for "when you leave the company, you drop the belt". The problem, once again, is that Bret had to drop the belt in Canada to Shawn Michaels. He wanted to either just surrender the belt or, at worst, job to Michaels on RAW in the United States.



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« Reply #42 on: January 14, 2011, 11:31:38 AM »

I get that. McMahon said that during his interview with JR, after Survivor Series.

Bret sold out....and it's not a big deal, because I helped him do it. As I said, the issue wasn't Bret's leaving, per se. It was Bret's leaving as WWF CHAMPION and Bischoff spilling the beans on Nitro, while Bret still had the belt. (McMahon already got embarrased once with the Alundra Blayze/Madusa Micelli routine, throwing the WWF Women's title in the trash on Nitro, two years earlier).

Remember McMahon's speech about the "time-honored tradition" in the wrestling business. That was basically wrestling-ese for "when you leave the company, you drop the belt". The problem, once again, is that Bret had to drop the belt in Canada to Shawn Michaels. He wanted to either just surrender the belt or, at worst, job to Michaels on RAW in the United States.




And again, the reason Bret didn't want to lose the title was because Michaels REFUSED to return the job to Bret after their big 1 hour iron man match. The plan was for Michael's to return the favor to Hart at the next WM which he flat out refused. He faked a knee injury instead to get out of it which has been attested for by many in the business. Even WM14 when Michaels lost the title to Austin, at first he refused. It was only because the Undertaker went up to Michaels, sat him down and threatened to beat him to a living pulp that Michaels did what he was told.
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« Reply #43 on: January 14, 2011, 11:45:44 AM »

And again, the reason Bret didn't want to lose the title was because Michaels REFUSED to return the job to Bret after their big 1 hour iron man match. The plan was for Michael's to return the favor to Hart at the next WM which he flat out refused. He faked a knee injury instead to get out of it which has been attested for by many in the business. Even WM14 when Michaels lost the title to Austin, at first he refused. It was only because the Undertaker went up to Michaels, sat him down and threatened to beat him to a living pulp that Michaels did what he was told.

Michaels had a busted-up back. And, there wasn't a soul in that building in Boston who thought Michaels was going to retain the title. Austin beating Michaels for the strap was a mere formality, especially in the 90s. The formula was simple: Heel champ + face challenger = NEW CHAMPION CROWNED.


As for Bret Hart, I'm not disagreeing with the aspect of his not wanting to job to Michaels. I've pointed that out myself. But, as bad as that was, Bret would have done it anyway, had it been in the USA. But jobbing to Michaels in CANADA was just too much for his pride/ego to bear.

With Bischoff licking his chops to spill the beans on Nitro, there's no way Vince McMahon was going to let Bret Hart leave Montreal as champion. But, Survivor Series was SOLD OUT, in anticipation of this match. Hart ain't doing the match, if he has to lose the title to Michaels.

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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2011, 12:43:48 PM »

Michaels had a busted-up back. And, there wasn't a soul in that building in Boston who thought Michaels was going to retain the title. Austin beating Michaels for the strap was a mere formality, especially in the 90s. The formula was simple: Heel champ + face challenger = NEW CHAMPION CROWNED.


As for Bret Hart, I'm not disagreeing with the aspect of his not wanting to job to Michaels. I've pointed that out myself. But, as bad as that was, Bret would have done it anyway, had it been in the USA. But jobbing to Michaels in CANADA was just too much for his pride/ego to bear.

With Bischoff licking his chops to spill the beans on Nitro, there's no way Vince McMahon was going to let Bret Hart leave Montreal as champion. But, Survivor Series was SOLD OUT, in anticipation of this match. Hart ain't doing the match, if he has to lose the title to Michaels.


The anti-american storyline was only a storyline. Have a beer Mcway. Your taking this a tad to seriously.
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« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2011, 12:54:19 PM »

The anti-american storyline was only a storyline. Have a beer Mcway. Your taking this a tad to seriously.

One, I don't drink.

Two, this is an interesting discussion.

Three, I'm not talking about the anti-American storyline. Bret simply did not want to lose the belt to Michaels in Canada. It's just that simple.
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« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2011, 01:04:14 PM »

One, I don't drink.

Two, this is an interesting discussion.

Three, I'm not talking about the anti-American storyline. Bret simply did not want to lose the belt to Michaels in Canada. It's just that simple.
Outed right there.

And Bret not wanting to lose was already explained. Corona;s are on sale for 35 bucks a case. You need a whole case.
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« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2011, 01:09:08 PM »

MCWAY, your arguments are lucid and I've read a lot of posts of yours and you seem like a good guy.  But I just think you are getting worked here.
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« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2011, 01:28:39 PM »

MCWAY, your arguments are lucid and I've read a lot of posts of yours and you seem like a good guy.  But I just think you are getting worked here.

Nope. Just engaging in a topic that's still being debated, over 13 years later.

Outed right there.

And Bret not wanting to lose was already explained. Corona;s are on sale for 35 bucks a case. You need a whole case.


Your explanation is rather flimsy. Hart's not wanting to lose to Michaels in Canada had nothing to do with the Anti-American angle.

It has everything to do with his loathing of Michaels, at the time.

Sorry to disappoint you! McWay loves the ladies, particularly the one I married and with whom I have a bouncing baby boy.
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« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2011, 01:41:20 PM »

This is a very good topic of debate/discussion.

I'll sticky it for a week or so to see if any casual or occasional browsers to this forum catch it & wish to chime in.
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