A Right to Bear Glocks?

[Benny B]

January 9, 2011
A Right to Bear Glocks?
By GAIL COLLINS

In 2009, Gabrielle Giffords was holding a “Congress on Your Corner” meeting at a Safeway supermarket in her district when a protester, who was waving a sign that said “Don’t Tread on Me,” waved a little too strenuously. The pistol he was carrying under his armpit fell out of his holster.

“It bounced. That concerned me,” Rudy Ruiz, the father of one of Giffords’s college interns at the time, told me then. He had been at the event and had gotten a larger vision than he had anticipated of what a career in politics entailed. “I just thought, ‘What would happen if it had gone off? Could my daughter have gotten hurt?’ ”

Giffords brushed off the incident. “When you represent a district — the home of the O.K. Corral and Tombstone, the town too tough to die — nothing’s a surprise,” she said. At the time, it struck me as an interesting attempt to meld crisis control with a promotion of local tourist attractions.

Now, of course, the district has lost more people in a shooting in a shopping center parking lot than died at the gunfight of the O.K. Corral, and the story of the dropped pistol has a tragically different cast.

In soft-pedaling that 2009 encounter, Giffords was doing a balancing act that she’d perfected during her political career as a rather progressive Democrat in a increasingly conservative state. She was the spunky Western girl with a populist agenda mixed with down-home values, one of which was opposition to gun control. But those protesters had been following her around for a while. Her staff members were clearly scared for her, and they put me in touch with Ruiz, who told me the story.

Back then, the amazing thing about the incident in the supermarket parking lot was that the guy with a handgun in his armpit was not arrested. Since then, Arizona has completely eliminated the whole concept of requiring a concealed weapon permit. Last year, it got 2 points out of a possible 100 in the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence state score card, avoiding a zero only because its Legislature has not — so far — voted to force colleges to let people bring their guns on campuses.

Today, the amazing thing about the reaction to the Giffords shooting is that virtually all the discussion about how to prevent a recurrence has been focusing on improving the tone of our political discourse. That would certainly be great. But you do not hear much about the fact that Jared Loughner came to Giffords’s sweet gathering with a semiautomatic weapon that he was able to buy legally because the law restricting their sale expired in 2004 and Congress did not have the guts to face up to the National Rifle Association and extend it.

If Loughner had gone to the Safeway carrying a regular pistol, the kind most Americans think of when they think of the right to bear arms, Giffords would probably still have been shot and we would still be having that conversation about whether it was a sane idea to put her Congressional district in the cross hairs of a rifle on the Internet.

But we might not have lost a federal judge, a 76-year-old church volunteer, two elderly women, Giffords’s 30-year-old constituent services director and a 9-year-old girl who had recently been elected to the student council at her school and went to the event because she wanted to see how democracy worked.

Loughner’s gun, a 9-millimeter Glock, is extremely easy to fire over and over, and it can carry a 30-bullet clip. It is “not suited for hunting or personal protection,” said Paul Helmke, the president of the Brady Campaign. “What it’s good for is killing and injuring a lot of people quickly.”

America has a long, terrible history of political assassinations and attempts at political assassination. What we did not have until now is a history of attempted political assassination that took the lives of a large number of innocent bystanders. The difference is not about the Second Amendment. It’s about a technology the founding fathers could never have imagined.

“If this was the modern equivalent of what Sirhan Sirhan used to shoot Robert Kennedy or Arthur Bremer used to shoot George Wallace, you’d be talking about one or two victims,” said Helmke.

Giffords represents a pragmatic, interest-balancing form of politics that’s out of fashion. But, in that spirit, we should be able to find a way to accommodate the strong desire in many parts of the country for easy access to firearms with sane regulation of the kinds of weapons that make it easiest for crazy people to create mass slaughter. Most politicians won’t talk about it because they’re afraid of the N.R.A., whose agenda is driven by the people who sell guns and want the right to sell as many as possible.

Doesn’t it seem like the least we can do?

[Benny B]

It is wishful thinking, but if the Republicans and Tea Party group want express their sincerity that their "gun sight" type of campaigning had nothing to do with events in Tucson, how about introducing and supporting legislation to return the rules on regulation of guns like the Glock and AK47, which as you point out, have no legitimate role in hunting or self protection, only an invitation to create mass murder. If there are any valid reasons for arming oneself with weapons of this type I would suggest that the individual would be required to have the equivalent of/or a passport, post a legal notice that he/she was the owner of such, and register such characteristics of the weapon/ammunition that it can be traced by examining bullets fired from the gun..If they really feel that the violence is solely due to disturbed individuals acting independently and not related to any political rhetoric then help take away a major opportunity for the disturbed individuals to act.
~Josef R. Smith
Tucson, AZ

[GigantorX]

So what would be said if he had shot those people with a hunting rifle?

[Kazan]

So what would be said if he had shot those people with a hunting rifle?

Doesn't matter, the left seems to think that they get to decide what people should and shouldn't have, or what is necessary. But there is this pesky think called the second Amendment, that keeps them in check for the most part.  The person went out and decided to shoot people, the gun didn't do it on its own.

[Soul Crusher]

What law could have prevented this short of an outright ban on handguns? 

[GigantorX]

What law could have prevented this short of an outright ban on handguns? 

A handgun ban wouldn't have prevented anything. This guy was going to kill someone one way or the other either with a bomb, a knife or an illegal handgun.

[Kazan]

What law could have prevented this short of an outright ban on handguns? 

Sure because when something is illegal or banned no one can get it. Take drugs for instance, whoops never mind

[240 is Back]

"“It bounced. That concerned me,” Rudy Ruiz, the father of one of Giffords’s college interns at the time, told me then. He had been at the event and had gotten a larger vision than he had anticipated of what a career in politics entailed. “I just thought, ‘What would happen if it had gone off? Could my daughter have gotten hurt?’ ”"

That's just ignorance.  The man is ignorant of how Glocks work.  You can throw your glock in the air and let it bounce on the sidewalk all day and it doesn't fire, much less falling from a holster.

DROP SAFETY
In the line of duty it may happen that a loaded pistol is dropped on the floor. Contrary to conventional pistols, the GLOCK drop safety prevents unintentional firing of a shot through hard impact. When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar is guided in a precision safety ramp. The trigger bar is deflected from this ramp only in the moment the shot is triggered.


Granted, the d-bag who dropped it should have been charged with disturbing the peace or reckless endangerment - if you wanna get a permit, you can wear a fanny or get a better holster - he's an irresponsible assclown.  You securely carry - you don't just stick in in your pants, plaxico.

[Dr Loomis]

Nothing can prevent someone from obtaining a weapon and ambushing you, legislation or otherwise. No defense against it, even if you have a weapon to defend yourself. You can't walk around in life with you're gun drawn and if someone hunts you down, you're dead.

[tonymctones]

"“It bounced. That concerned me,” Rudy Ruiz, the father of one of Giffords’s college interns at the time, told me then. He had been at the event and had gotten a larger vision than he had anticipated of what a career in politics entailed. “I just thought, ‘What would happen if it had gone off? Could my daughter have gotten hurt?’ ”"

That's just ignorance.  The man is ignorant of how Glocks work.  You can throw your glock in the air and let it bounce on the sidewalk all day and it doesn't fire, much less falling from a holster.

DROP SAFETY
In the line of duty it may happen that a loaded pistol is dropped on the floor. Contrary to conventional pistols, the GLOCK drop safety prevents unintentional firing of a shot through hard impact. When the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar is guided in a precision safety ramp. The trigger bar is deflected from this ramp only in the moment the shot is triggered.


Granted, the d-bag who dropped it should have been charged with disturbing the peace or reckless endangerment - if you wanna get a permit, you can wear a fanny or get a better holster - he's an irresponsible assclown.  You securely carry - you don't just stick in in your pants, plaxico.

[headhuntersix]

 It is “not suited for hunting or personal protection,” said Paul Helmke, the president of the Brady Campaign. “What it’s good for is killing and injuring a lot of people quickly.”

WHAT???...what exactly would be good for protection...a flintlock...maybe a wrist rocket. These assholes need to shut the hell up. While I'm not in 240's league...its kinda weird how quickly all the Left were able to coordinate the Palin/2nd Amendment/Talk radio/Fox News attack plan...just sayin.

[Soul Crusher]

This whole episode is insane.   

[headhuntersix]

I'm sorry but this country has changed in the last 2 years or so. Tne Dems will not get away with this shit. How about that stupid idiot State Rep blaming a "VET" without knowing any of the facts. The only vet invloved in this mess was the one trying to save that poor womans' life.

[240 is Back]

While I'm not in 240's league...its kinda weird how quickly all the Left were able to coordinate the Palin/2nd Amendment/Talk radio/Fox News attack plan...just sayin.

HAHAH!  Be careful, that's CT talk!  And one getbig moderator put this shooter and CTers in the same category hahaha...

[Soul Crusher]

Where were all these leftists and communists screaming for more gun control after Maj. Hassan committed his act?   

[Kazan]

Where were all these leftists and communists screaming for more gun control after Maj. Hassan committed his act?   

He was just a misunderstood Islamic terrorist, no need to get crazy I mean hell he only killed soldiers

[headhuntersix]

Wooooh there 3 don't you dare jump to conclusions on the Hassn shooting...that was an isolated incident. This however was a well coordinated Palin/FOX/LImbaugh/Tea Party operation....carried out by a young war vet with PTSD , forgotten by a military created by Bush and Cheney. Haliburton supplied the ammo and the weapons training was pure Black Water. He was driving a big SUV, listening to Rush...while eating a Happy Meal. Did I miss andything else you leftwing wack jobs hate.  

[Soul Crusher]

Wooooh there 3 don't you dare jump to conclusions on the Hassn shooting...that was an isolated incident. This however was a well coordinated Palin/FOX/LImbaugh/Tea Party operation....carried out by a young war vet with PTSD , forgotten by a military created by Bush and Cheney. Haliburton supplied the ammo and the weapons training was pure Black Water. He was driving a big SUV, listening to Rush...while eating a Happy Meal. Did I miss andything else you leftwing wack jobs hate.  

Obama did not find it justified to have a national prayer after that incident.  Just saying.   

Again - the left is so predictable.     

[Soul Crusher]

Glock Pistol Sales Surge in Aftermath of Arizona Shootings
By Michael Riley - Jan 11, 2011 1:11 PM ET
inShare.59More

Business ExchangeBuzz up!DiggPrint Email . A Glock 9MM pistol. Photographer: Tim Sloan/AFP/Getty Images)


After a Glock-wielding gunman killed six people at a Tucson shopping center on Jan. 8, Greg Wolff, the owner of two Arizona gun shops, told his manager to get ready for a stampede of new customers.

Wolff was right. Instead of hurting sales, the massacre had the $499 semi-automatic pistols -- popular with police, sport shooters and gangsters -- flying out the doors of his Glockmeister stores in Mesa and Phoenix.

“We’re at double our volume over what we usually do,” Wolff said two days after the shooting spree that also left 14 wounded, including Democratic Representative Gabrielle Giffords, who remains in critical condition.

A national debate over weaknesses in state and federal gun laws stirred by the shooting has stoked fears among gun buyers that stiffer restrictions may be coming from Congress, gun dealers say. The result is that a deadly demonstration of the weapon’s effectiveness has also fired up sales of handguns in Arizona and other states, according to federal law enforcement data.

“When something like this happens people get worried that the government is going to ban stuff,” Wolff said.

Arizona gun dealers say that among the biggest sellers over the past two days is the Glock 19 made by privately held Glock GmbH, based in Deutsch-Wagram, Austria, the model used in the shooting.

Sales Jump

One-day sales of handguns in Arizona jumped 60 percent on Jan. 10 compared with the corresponding Monday a year ago, the second-biggest increase of any state in the country, according to Federal Bureau of Investigation data. From a year earlier, handgun sales ticked up yesterday 65 percent in Ohio, 16 percent in California, 38 percent in Illinois and 33 percent in New York, the FBI data show, and increased nationally about 5 percent.

Federally tracked gun sales, which are drawn from sales in gun stores that require a federal background check, also jumped following the 2007 massacre at Virginia Tech, in which 32 people were killed.

“Whenever there is a huge event, especially when it’s close to home, people do tend to run out and buy something to protect their family,” said Don Gallardo, a manager at Arizona Shooter’s World in Phoenix, who said that the number of people signing up for the store’s concealed weapons class doubled over the weekend. Gallardo said he expects handgun sales to climb steadily throughout the week.

Permissive Laws

Jared Loughner, the 22-year-old accused in the shooting, has a petty criminal record, yet so far there’s no evidence that his background contained anything that would have prevented him from buying a handgun in Arizona, where limits on owning and carrying a gun are among the most permissive in the country, according to the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, a gun- control advocacy group.

Critics have focused on the extended magazine used in the shooting. It was illegal until 2004 under the expired federal ban on assault weapons. The clip -- still banned in some states and popular in Arizona, gun dealers say -- allegedly allowed Loughner to fire 33 rounds without reloading.

Democratic Representative Carolyn McCarthy of New York said this week that she plans to introduce legislation that would ban the high-capacity magazine. McCarthy’s husband was one of six people shot to death in 1993 by a lone gunman on a Long Island railroad train. Her son was among the 19 people wounded.

“The fact that the guy had a magazine that could carry 33 rounds, he was not out to just kill. He was there to do a mass killing,” said Dr. Lawrence Kobilinsky, a forensics expert at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New York.

Virginia Tech

Light and easy to use, a Glock 9 mm was also wielded by the Virginia Tech killer, Seung-Hui Cho, in a spree that left 32 people dead. The gun is among the most popular sidearms for U.S. police departments. A negative for law enforcement is that the rifling of the barrel makes it almost impossible to match a bullet to an individual weapon with ballistic tests, Kobilinsky said.

“It’s one of the greatest guns made in the history of the world,” said Wolff, whose two stores sell Glock-made weapons almost exclusively.

When Loughner allegedly walked into Tucson’s Sportsman’s Warehouse last November to buy a Glock 19 -- favored as a concealed weapon because it is slightly smaller and lighter than similar caliber handguns -- federal law would have required a background check via the National Instant Criminal Background Check System, a telephone-based check administered by the FBI.

Background Check

Loughner would have had to present his driver’s license and answer several questions, including queries on past drug use, domestic violence or felony convictions. Wolff said in most cases the check takes less than five minutes and the number of denials he receives is a tiny fraction of the total.

Wolff called the shooting “horrible.” Nonetheless, it has created a surge of publicity for the gun, he said.

“It’s in the news now. I’m sure the Green Bay Packers are selling all kinds of jerseys today as well,” he said. “I just think our state embraces guns.”

Arizona law allows anyone to carry a gun in public if it’s in full view, making it what’s known as an open-carry state. Until recently, gun store owners say, it was common to see people carrying weapons in grocery stores or coffee shops. That’s less true today, because last year that state passed a law allowing individuals to carry a concealed weapon without a permit.

Gun Law Rating

Daniel Vise, senior attorney with the Brady Campaign, said Arizona received a score of two out of 100 on the organization’s rating of state gun laws, and that the rate of gun deaths in the state is one and a half times the national average.

Brady Campaign spokeswoman Caroline Brewer said that some states require local law enforcement agencies to approve gun permits, a system that would have given authorities a chance to further assess Loughner, whose behavior acquaintances have described as erratic. Loughner tried to buy ammunition the morning of the shooting at a local Wal-Mart Stores Inc. outlet, then left during the sale process, according to a statement by the company.

“If a clerk at Wal-Mart picked something up and refused to sell this guy some ammunition, we can certainly imagine that law enforcement would have picked that up as well,” Brewer said.

To contact the reporter on this story: Michael Riley in Washington at michaelriley@bloomberg.net.

To contact the editor responsible for this story: David E. Rovella at drovella@bloomberg.net.

[240 is Back]

Glock Pistol Sales Surge in Aftermath of Arizona Shootings

happens every time. 

lib reps will make the hay by crying about banning guns.

conservatives in office will cry the libs are trying to take the guns.

the 90% of elected officials in the middle won't touch the issue.

media makes a shitload of $ following something like this.

[Soul Crusher]

Benny: 

Most people on this board have a carry license.  Should we all be disarmed by the govt? 

[Kazan]

I notice most of the people that rail about how bad guns are have never owned or in most cases held one.

[muscleforlife]

I notice most of the people that rail about how bad guns are have never owned or in most cases held one.

Since I don't hunt, I don't own a gun, never had a desire to do so.

I think that people should legally own guns if that is what they desire.
The need to have a of ammo to shot 30 rounds serves no purpose for private citizens.
That would be the reason those clips are now illegal to purchase.

Sidebar.  Was anyone else carrying during the shooting spree?
If so, how did their weapon help the situation?
(just my curiosity since the state is quite liberal in gun laws.)
Sandra

[Soul Crusher]

What difference does it make?  Seriously.

Would people have felt better if he had 5. Ten rounds mags vs 1 50 round mag?   The whole issue is ridiculous.

What if this freak instead wore a suicide belt like suicide bombers do and blew up 50 people instead? 

What would we ban then?  Duct tape? 

[Kazan]

Since I don't hunt, I don't own a gun, never had a desire to do so.

I think that people should legally own guns if that is what they desire.
The need to have a of ammo to shot 30 rounds serves no purpose for private citizens.
That would be the reason those clips are now illegal to purchase.

Sidebar.  Was anyone else carrying during the shooting spree?
If so, how did their weapon help the situation?
(just my curiosity since the state is quite liberal in gun laws.)
Sandra

30 round clips aren't illegal, I just bought several for my AR 15. Why do they server no purpose? Maybe someone is a competitive shooter.  There are many reason someone would have "over sized" magazines.

Yes there were others carrying at the event, but they had enough sense not to draw their weapon in a crowd and start shooting. That is the difference between a crazy and a responsible gun owner, they take those things into account.


Besides Glocks have a double stack magazine, a standard magazine holds about 19 rounds to begin with.