Author Topic: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court  (Read 6660 times)

tonymctones

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2016, 05:41:42 PM »
Watch this.


Seen it many times, doesn't prove your point at all and it doesn't disprove any of the points made by obsidian...

The True Adonis

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2016, 05:57:29 PM »
You can start with anyone of the 10 commandments, helping those less fortunate than you and many more.
If you were going to make a list of like the ten things you absolutely can't do, wouldn't you put on there rape, incest, bestiality, slavery? But, instead, they have things like "Don't swear," you know, "Don't build statues to other Gods," obviously the ideas of primitive man living in primitive times, and this is what you look up to.

The True Adonis

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2016, 05:59:46 PM »
Does someone really need the bible to tell them not to kill someone?  ???

Kazan

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2016, 06:21:54 PM »
Does someone really need the bible to tell them not to kill someone?  ???

Apparently some people do, or there would be no murders.
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

tonymctones

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2016, 08:21:55 PM »
If you were going to make a list of like the ten things you absolutely can't do, wouldn't you put on there rape, incest, bestiality, slavery? But, instead, they have things like "Don't swear," you know, "Don't build statues to other Gods," obviously the ideas of primitive man living in primitive times, and this is what you look up to.
Again you're not proving your point............ Whatever the morals, they are derived from religion. Whether you agree with them is irrelevant to the conversation.


tonymctones

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2016, 08:23:14 PM »
Does someone really need the bible to tell them not to kill someone?  ???
As opposed to morals derived from the idea of the greater good which means that murder is perfectly exceptable if it benefits society?

The True Adonis

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2016, 09:17:28 PM »
As opposed to morals derived from the idea of the greater good which means that murder is perfectly exceptable if it benefits society?
Ask Jesus about that one.  He had to be murdered in order to be your savior so I guess murder was acceptable in that case.  :D

obsidian

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2016, 10:35:00 PM »
Does someone really need the bible to tell them not to kill someone?  ???
That's not the point of the Bible or evidence against a Creator. The fact that atheists are not out killing people are for economic reasons and because most people don't enjoy ending up in jail for life (unless you're non-white in Denmark and many European countries where sentences are lenient).

So what point are you trying to make? There is no Creator because atheists are not killing millions of people?

obsidian

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2016, 10:41:19 PM »
Which morals do you get from religion?
If morals are purely a biological attribute that developed in social animals like humans as a survival response, why do you have morals that would have zero impact on your survival? Or are you saying you don't have morals? If a stranger's dog suffers or is in pain, why would you care? Since your survival does not hinge on the welfare of this animal?

The True Adonis

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2016, 10:46:48 PM »
If morals are purely a biological attribute that developed in social animals like humans as a survival response, why do you have morals that would have zero impact on your survival? Or are you saying you don't have morals? If a stranger's dog suffers or is in pain, why would you care? Since your survival does not hinge on the welfare of this animal?
Dawkins has shown there is this thing called empathy which reflects on a group which betters the chance of survival of not only the individual, but the entire group as well.  Mirror neurons and such.


obsidian

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2016, 10:50:06 PM »
William Lane Craig (Christian) totally destroys Hitchens (Atheist) in this debate. It's embarrassing to watch. Notice how Hitchens twitches and fumbles with his pen during cross examination starting around 1:21:00



Opening Statements:
13:16 William Lane Craig (Christian)
33:42 Christopher Hitchens (Atheist)

Rebuttals:
54:20 William Lane Craig (Christian)
1:06:50 Christopher Hitchens (Atheist)

Cross-Examination:
1:19:29 William Lane Craig (Christian)
1:25:56 Christopher Hitchens (Atheist)

Responses:
1:33:02 William Lane Craig (Christian)
1:40:36 Christopher Hitchens (Atheist)

Closing Arguments:
1:48:18 William Lane Craig (Christian)
Christopher Hitchens (Atheist) - yielded his time

1:54:12 Question + Answer Period

The True Adonis

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2016, 10:51:49 PM »
If morals are purely a biological attribute that developed in social animals like humans as a survival response, why do you have morals that would have zero impact on your survival? Or are you saying you don't have morals? If a stranger's dog suffers or is in pain, why would you care? Since your survival does not hinge on the welfare of this animal?
Also, not all of our actions has to have a survival mechanism or be directly related to our survival.

Morality is a human construct, Empathy is not.  Countless animals have empathy.  Other species of animals caring for completely different species which may not necessarily enhance their survival per se, but they have empathy to do so.


The True Adonis

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2016, 10:52:53 PM »
William Lane Craig (Christian) totally destroys Hitchens (Atheist) in this debate. It's embarrassing to watch. Notice how Hitchens twitches and fumbles with his pen during cross examination starting around 1:21:00



Opening Statements:
13:16 William Lane Craig (Christian)
33:42 Christopher Hitchens (Atheist)

Rebuttals:
54:20 William Lane Craig (Christian)
1:06:50 Christopher Hitchens (Atheist)

Cross-Examination:
1:19:29 William Lane Craig (Christian)
1:25:56 Christopher Hitchens (Atheist)

Responses:
1:33:02 William Lane Craig (Christian)
1:40:36 Christopher Hitchens (Atheist)

Closing Arguments:
1:48:18 William Lane Craig (Christian)
Christopher Hitchens (Atheist) - yielded his time

1:54:12 Question + Answer Period
Already seen it and William Lane Craig gets destroyed easily here.

You must have been watching something else.  What a joke.

obsidian

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2016, 10:54:30 PM »
Dawkins has shown there is this thing called empathy which reflects on a group which betters the chance of survival of not only the individual, but the entire group as well.  Mirror neurons and such.


Dawkins avoided debates with William Lane Craig for years and when he finally agreed was destroyed. Atheists tremble when Craig debates them! LMAO!


The True Adonis

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2016, 10:57:28 PM »
Dawkins avoided debates with William Lane Craig for years and when he finally agreed was destroyed. Atheists tremble when Craig debates them! LMAO!


What a joke.  You probably think Ken Hamm is amazing as well.  I can't take you serious at all at this point.

obsidian

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2016, 11:16:28 PM »
Also, not all of our actions has to have a survival mechanism or be directly related to our survival.

Morality is a human construct, Empathy is not.  Countless animals have empathy.  Other species of animals caring for completely different species which may not necessarily enhance their survival per se, but they have empathy to do so.


If predators have more species to choose from it could enhance the survival of a specific species if other species survived. So they would benefit by helping another animal of a different species to ensure their own survival.

However, William Craig has addressed this issue as well.

Kevin Harris: That brings up the question, Bill, of animals. From a Christian standpoint, perhaps God’s grace in the animal kingdom and animal companionship to man. Because we hear stories, and he relates stories of how dolphins have saved swimmers to no benefits to themselves. They weren’t fed a fish or given a treat for that. How dogs have often helped human beings, and things like that. From a strictly Darwinian view, you would say that’s where all this stuff came from and then we are back to the source. What about a view that this is all perhaps part of God’s good creation and providence.

Dr. Craig: Well, absolutely. I think that we do think that the animal world, as well as the human realm, is under the providence and planning of God, and if God knew that in order to have social animals that live in groups you would need to have these kinds of behavior. Then he could have designed the world in such a way that they would exhibit these kinds of behaviors. He says that’s why the dolphin will help the human swimmer to be saved; not because the dolphin gets something out of it in that specific case, but because this general kind of helpful behavior is useful to the dolphin species and helps it to survive. It just happens that in certain cases we are lucky to become the beneficiaries of this. Even among elephants and pigs, among any kind of social animal that lives in groups, you see this kind of cooperative behavior because it is advantageous in the struggle for survival. So, we are talking here simply about this kind of behavior that is exhibited by social animals, and as you said, I see no reason to think that God couldn’t have, in his providence, created animals in such a way that they would exhibit this sort of behavior for their own benefit.

Kevin Harris: Dr. De Waal makes a distinction between empathy and sympathy. CNN asked him, “By empathy, you mean that they feel each other’s pain?” De Waal says,

Well, feeling someone else’s joy is also empathy. Being affected by the laugh, as humans are, is a form of empathy. So empathy basically says that you’re sensitive to the emotions of others and react to the emotions of others.

Dr. Craig: And if I might interject here, that is where people who are psychopaths come in. They fail to exhibit this kind of empathy. They don’t identify with the emotions of others or react to the emotions of others. The reason a psychopath is capable of killing in cold blood without any remorse at all is precisely because he lacks this empathy with other human beings.

Kevin Harris: He says,

Sympathy is a bit more complicated. Sympathy is that you want to take action. You want to help somebody else who’s in trouble. So sympathy is a bit more specific, it’s a bit more action-oriented. Empathy is just a sensitivity. Empathy is not necessarily positive. If someone wants to sell you a bad car for a high price, he also needs to empathize with you in order to get you to buy it.

He goes on to the animal kingdom here, and says that you can see female primates, monkeys, and so forth, chimpanzees, who when one of them is giving birth some of the other females will gather around and they will crouch and do the same things she is doing, kind of in empathy. I have seen my own dogs do this. My dogs, when one of them starts scratching the other says, “I know, that feels good” and he starts scratching. Now, Bill, that is a huge extrapolation to say this is where we humans derive our empathy, and then this turned into morals and moral values and duties, when it’s just these naturalistic tendencies, and itches, and empathy things.

Dr. Craig: Well, just think, Kevin, if there is no God - imagine atheism. There is nothing beyond the natural world. The natural world is all there is. Then to me, it seems that De Waal is right, that this is all morality would be. I think it’s just extraordinarily difficult to see, in the absence of God, why on naturalism these forms of empathy and sympathy that human beings exhibit to one another are of any sort of moral significance. I can’t see why the psychopath does anything morally wrong on naturalism. He just doesn’t have this empathy that most other members of the species does, and so, he doesn’t exhibit this sort of cooperative behavior, but why on atheism does the psychopath do anything morally wrong? I can’t see any reason to think that. So, once you get rid of God as a transcendent anchor point and foundation for objective moral values and duties then, it seems to me, that morality is just a behavior pattern among human beings that originates, as you say, in scratches and itches and feelings of empathy. There isn’t any other foundation. Where else would it be found?

Read more: http://www.reasonablefaith.org/Do-Animals-Display-Morality#ixzz414DAfihZ

tonymctones

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2016, 04:44:14 AM »
What a joke.  You probably think Ken Hamm is amazing as well.  I can't take you serious at all at this point.
Brilliant rebuttal!!! you're getting shown up on the points you turned to after your original views got debunked and dismissed...

Straw Man

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2016, 11:35:34 AM »
Wait I thought you were in the same camp as TA in that you didn't feel that morals were derived from religion?

Tony confused

what a surprise

I've never said a word on this thread about where I think morals come from

Morals are nothing more than arbitray rules about "right" and "wrong", either derived from your own personal beliefs or derived from some other source which could be a religion

You don't need any religious belief to be a moral person



tonymctones

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2016, 05:03:16 PM »
Tony confused

what a surprise

I've never said a word on this thread about where I think morals come from

Morals are nothing more than arbitray rules about "right" and "wrong", either derived from your own personal beliefs or derived from some other source which could be a religion

You don't need any religious belief to be a moral person
Good to know you too disagree with TA about morals having to do with religion at least for some people.

It appears though your ok with justices voting based on their morals as long as they aren't based in religion, is that correct?

Straw Man

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2016, 05:42:05 PM »
Good to know you too disagree with TA about morals having to do with religion at least for some people.

It appears though your ok with justices voting based on their morals as long as they aren't based in religion, is that correct?

Jesus Christ your reading comprehension sucks.

I said morals are arbitrary rules and they could come from religion.

I want justices making decisions based on the Constitution and nothing else.  

Not their personal religious beliefs or their personal morals.


Straw Man

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2016, 05:48:24 PM »
Watch this.



Great video.
I've never seen this one before

tonymctones

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2016, 06:39:05 PM »
Jesus Christ your reading comprehension sucks.

I said morals are arbitrary rules and they could come from religion.

I want justices making decisions based on the Constitution and nothing else. 

Not their personal religious beliefs or their personal morals.


Completely agree, it's just funny that you have never said anything about the injection of morality by liberal judges is all

Straw Man

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2016, 07:07:06 PM »
Completely agree, it's just funny that you have never said anything about the injection of morality by liberal judges is all

feel free to provide some explicit examples of liberal judgeds "injection of morality" and I'll comment on them

absfabs

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2016, 09:59:01 PM »
How about put someone for unregulated capitalism and ending the fed and public school on the supreme court? and ending law changing by judges?

Straw Man

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Re: Put an Atheist on the Supreme Court
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2016, 08:31:10 AM »
How about put someone for unregulated capitalism and ending the fed and public school on the supreme court? and ending law changing by judges?

great contribution

were you sniffing glue last night?