Author Topic: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs  (Read 21460 times)

chaos

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Re: Solution.
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2011, 04:42:59 PM »
  You truly are a sore loser. You know the answer isn't online and you won't admit it because you don't want to give me credit. It is very simple.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
Lighten up, Francis.
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution.
« Reply #76 on: March 19, 2011, 01:10:55 AM »
Lighten up, Francis.

  Stop trolling, Beavis!

SUCKMYMUSCLE

cephissus

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #77 on: March 19, 2011, 01:47:29 AM »
I'm trying to solve this problem right now.  I'm glad I didn't read suckmymuscle's solution first...

cephissus

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #78 on: March 19, 2011, 01:51:47 AM »
I wish I could remember some programming right now, cause this could take a while lol...

edit -

i got 477,857 minutes.  suckmymuscle, have you had your answer confirmed by anyone?

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #79 on: March 19, 2011, 12:04:27 PM »
I'm trying to solve this problem right now.  I'm glad I didn't read suckmymuscle's solution first...

  There is only one way to solve this problem. Let us see if you arrive at the same solution as yours truly.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

cephissus

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #80 on: March 19, 2011, 07:45:30 PM »
 A couple months ago I posted the following problem as a challenge to Ross Erstling to prove he has an IQ of 160:

 "A certain gear system consists of 5 concentric, superposed discs: A, B, C, D and E, which are mounted on a solid platform, taken as a stationary reference. The discs have different sizes and spin at different speeds. All the discs spin at constant rates, some clockwise, some anticlockwise. Each disc has a red dot on its surface, and initially all these red dots are not lined up. At a given moment, all the discs start to spin simultaneously, each at its own speed, without any contact between them. It takes 7 minutes for disc A, 13 minutes for disc B, 17 minutes for disc C, 19 minutes for disc D and 23 minutes for disc E to complete a full 360-degree spin. After a certain time, all the red dots were aligned, disc A being in the same position that it was 2 minutes after the discs started to spin, disc B being in the same position that it was 3 minutes after the discs started to spin, disc C being in the same position that it was 4 minutes after the discs started to spin, disc D being in the same position that it was 7 minutes after the discs started to spin, and disc E being the same position that it was 9 minutes after the discs started to spin. How much time elapsed from the moment the discs started to spin until the discs reached that configuration for the first time?"

Quote from: suckmymuscle
The solution is as follows: 9 minutes have transpired from the time the disks started spinning until the red dots on their surfaces were aligned. Explanation: since you know that at least 9 minutes have transpired since the disks started spinning, and since you can manipulate the speed and direction of rotations of the disks as you like and that they have different starting positions, you can align them whenever you want by manipulating the speed and direction of their rotation in the time alloted. This can be done to the intermediary disks, but since they all start spinning at the same moment, the size of the tiniest disk is relevant The only thing you need is to observe that the time it takes the largest disk to be at the minimum time alloted(9 minutes) coinceades with two minutes after the tiniest disk takes to complete a full 360 degree turn, which is 7 minutes. Two minutes after the smallest disks takes a full turn, it is once again at the point it was 2 minutes after it started spinning and that adds up to 9 minutes. Problem solved.

  So there you have it, guys. Chalk one up for the gorilla expert! Have a pleasant day. ;)

SUCKMYMUSCLE

I believe suckmymuscle's answer is original, but also incorrect.  I found his explanation rather confusing, but anyway it's pretty easy to demonstrate the problem with his answer of 9 minutes.  I tried to make a graphic of this (which would make my explanation very easy to understand) but I don't know how to use my graphics software very well, so I'll just have to explain it in words.  For the remainder of my explanation, I'll refer to the time that all the dots were aligned -- which is the answer to this problem -- as "the answer time."

It's true that at least 9 minutes have had to pass, since we know from the prompt that disc E traveled at for least 9 minutes before reaching alignment, at the minimum.  You need only look at the behavior of any disc other than A or E to see that the answer CANNOT be 9 minutes.  For the simplest example, let's look at disc D.

Here's what we know about disc D from the prompt:

1.  It takes 19 minutes for disc D to complete one revolution.
2.  Disc D was 7 minutes away from it's starting position at the answer time.

Clearly, given suckmymuscle's answer of 9 minutes, Disc D does not have time to complete one revolution in his solution, since 9 < 19.  This shows that the dot on disc D couldn't have hit the same position twice, so suckmymuscle's answer is wrong.  

To elaborate -- given suckmymuscle's answer, Disc D simply would have traveled for 9 minutes along it's path, and ended up completing about 1/2 of a revolution (9/19 of a revolution, to be exact).  The prompt clearly states that, at the answer time, disc D will be 7 minutes away from the position it started at.  In other words, it will have completed 7/19s, or roughly 1/3 of a revolution from its starting point.  This fact is obviously incompatible with suckmymuscle's answer, as 7/19 does not equal 9/19.

If that didn't make sense, I'll try to say it even more simply.  The prompt clearly tells us that disc D, at the time of the answer, will be about 1/3 of a circle away from its starting point.  Suckmymuscle's answer positions disc D at about 1/2 a circle away from its starting point.

Okay, now on to my solution, which I believe is correct:

This problem really isn't that hard.  We're looking for a time ("the answer time") so the answer has to be a number of minutes.  How do we find it?

Well, the prompt gives us two vital pieces of information for each disc, which will help us solve the problem.  The prompt tells us both HOW LONG A FULL REVOLUTION takes for each disc, and HOW FAR AWAY THE DISC IS FROM ITS STARTING POINT at the time of the answer.  It's helpful to make a little table of this information (the first number is the revolution, the second number is the displacement):

A - 7, 2
B - 13, 3
C - 17, 4
D - 19, 7
E - 23, 9

So, looking at disc A, you see that a possible answer to this question is 2 minutes.  After all, once two minutes have elapsed, disc A will be 2 minutes away from its starting point.  The prompt tells us that when disc A is lined up with all the other dots, it will be 2 minutes away from its starting point.

So is 2 minutes the answer?  Well, no, because disc B won't be in the correct position until AT LEAST 3 minutes -- the prompt also tells us this.  So is three the right answer?  Well no, for one thing, 3 minutes in disc A will no longer be in the same position, and Discs C-E haven't even been to the right position even once.  Going on in this fashion, you will see that the first reasonable answer to test is 9 minutes.

After 9 minutes, all of the discs will have at least had the chance to get into the right position once.  But this is also obviously incorrect, as we have already shown with our disc D example -- after 9 minutes, disc D will have passed the alignment position and be partially through its next revolution.

Now we need to put the final piece of the puzzle into play -- the revolution speed.  See, if disc A is in the correct position after 2 minutes, it will also be in that same position at 9 minutes, 16 minutes, 23 minutes, 30 minutes and so on.  This is because, as the prompt tells us, disc A completes a full revolution every seven minutes.  So, if A is in the correct position after 2 minutes, then seven minutes later it will be in that same position.  And seven minutes after that.  And seven minutes after that, and so on to eternity.

So now we have a whole host of possible answers, 2 (we know this is wrong), 9 (we also know this is wrong), 16, 23, 30, 37, 44, 51, etc. Those are all the times that disc A will be in the correct position -- multiples of 7, plus 2.

You can do this for all the other discs.  Disc B, for example, will be in the correct position after 3 minutes, 16 minutes, 29 minutes and so on (multiples of 13, plus 3).

Once you generate a huge list of all the times that each disc will be in the correct spot, all that's left is for you to find the lowest time that they all share.  If there is a time when all the discs are in the correct position, then that time is when they are all aligned, and that is the answer!

This would, obviously, require you to multiply a huge amount of numbers (I started doing it by hand hoping it would, by chance, be a small number) and I would have given up right there if I didn't know a little bit about programming from college.

In the end, this simple program:

main() {
 
        int answer = 0;
        int counter = 10;      
 
        while(answer == 0) {
                counter++;
                if ((counter-2)%7 + (counter-3)%13 + (counter-4)%17 + (counter-7)%19 + (counter-9)%23 == 0) {
                 answer = counter;
                }
        }
        
        printf("%i", answer);
 
}

when put through a C compiler, will solve the problem for you... the answer turns out to be 477,857 minutes.

Usually I don't do these sort of problems, because I'm not that great at them, but this one really was pretty easy for me.  There's no way a room full of 200 MIT professors, or whatever, couldn't have solved this.  I don't know anything about IQ tests, but there's no way you need an "IQ of 160+" (LOL) to solve this problem.  It took me about 20-30 minutes to figure out how to solve it, and another half hour or so to remember how to code.

Hopefully my answer is easier to understand than his!

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #81 on: March 19, 2011, 07:53:59 PM »
Clearly, given suckmymuscle's answer of 9 minutes, Disc D does not have time to complete one revolution in his solution, since 9 < 19.  This shows that the dot on disc D couldn't have hit the same position twice, so suckmymuscle's answer is wrong. 


  You misread it. No where does it state that one full 360 turn has been completed. Read it carefully. It states that the dot was at the same position it was 9 minutes after the disks started spinning. 2 minutes after disk 1 has completed one full 360 turn, will equal 9 minutes elapsed from the beggining of the movement, and we know that all disks started spinning simultaneously, therefore 9 minutes since the movement started will correspond to the same position disk 1 was 2 minutes after it started spinning and 9 minutes after disk E started spinning. My answer is correct.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

cephissus

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #82 on: March 19, 2011, 08:04:10 PM »


  You misread it. No where does it state that one full 360 turn has been completed. Read it carefully. It states that the dot was at the same position it was 9 minutes after the disks started spinning. 2 minutes after disk 1 has completed one full 360 turn, will equal 9 minutes elapsed from the beggining of the movement, and we know that all disks started spinning simultaneously, therefore 9 minutes since the movement started will correspond to the same position disk 1 was 2 minutes after it started spinning and 9 minutes after disk E started spinning. My answer is correct.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

I didn't misread it.  I know it didn't complete one full 360 turn.  After 9 minutes, disc D will have progressed... 9 minutes away from its starting point.  The prompt clearly says disc D needs to be 7 minutes away from its starting point to be aligned.

It's true that disc A and disc D will be 2 and 9 minutes (ie the correct distance) away from their respective starting points after 9 minutes, but none of the other three discs will be.  I simply said disc D hadn't progressed through a full revolution in order to demonstrate that there's no way it could have somehow passed the alignment distance (which it does after 7 minutes) and made it back in time by the 9 minute mark.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #83 on: March 19, 2011, 08:14:11 PM »
I didn't misread it.  I know it didn't complete one full 360 turn.  After 9 minutes, disc D will have progressed... 9 minutes away from its starting point.  The prompt clearly says disc D needs to be 7 minutes away from its starting point to be aligned.

It's true that disc A and disc D will be 2 and 9 minutes (ie the correct distance) away from their respective starting points after 9 minutes, but none of the other three discs will be.

  Cephiseus, read the problem carefully. It states that the disks turn at different speeds and directions and that they are not aligned. This makes their alignnment a matter of adjusting the speed and direction to whatever you want. Because only disk 1 will complete a full revolution, then the amount of minutes that transpired since the movement began will only be relevant for the disk that made a total revolution, the smallest one, and it only has to correspond to the time that transpired for the disk that took the longest to reach it's final position. My answer is correct.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Shockwave

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #84 on: March 19, 2011, 08:22:05 PM »
 Cephiseus, read the problem carefully. It states that the disks turn at different speeds and directions and that they are not aligned. This makes their alignnment a matter of adjusting the speed and direction to whatever you want. Because only disk 1 will complete a full revolution, then the amount of minutes that transpired since the movement began will only be relevant for the disk that made a total revolution, the smallest one, and it only has to correspond to the time that transpired for the disk that took the longest to reach it's final position. My answer is correct.

SUCKMYMUSCLE
Hes right.
If you read the prompt, it says when the dots are aligned,

Quote
disc D being in the same position that it was 7 minutes after the discs started to spin
Therefore your answer cant be correct.

cephissus

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #85 on: March 19, 2011, 08:22:33 PM »
  Cephiseus, read the problem carefully. It states that the disks turn at different speeds and directions and that they are not aligned. This makes their alignnment a matter of adjusting the speed and direction to whatever you want. Because only disk 1 will complete a full revolution, then the amount of minutes that transpired since the movement began will only be relevant for the disk that made a total revolution, the smallest one, and it only has to correspond to the time that transpired for the disk that took the longest to reach it's final position. My answer is correct.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

I think you are getting confused somehow.  For one thing, while the direction that the discs move is irrelevant, the speed is clearly fixed and not "whatever you want".  The prompt explicitly states the speed that each disc moves (A completes a revolution in 7 minutes, B in thirteen minutes, C in 17 minutes, and so on).


Quote
After a certain time, all the red dots were aligned ... disc D being in the same position that it was 7 minutes after the discs started to spin

Take a look at this part of the prompt.  The ellipsis does not change the meaning.  This clearly states that, at the time the red dots are aligned, disc D will be in the same position it was 7 minutes after it first started to move.  You say the answer is 9 minutes.  After 9 minutes, disc D will be nine minutes away from the position it was at when it first started to move, not 7.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #86 on: March 19, 2011, 08:37:30 PM »
I think you are getting confused somehow.  For one thing, while the direction that the discs move is irrelevant, the speed is clearly fixed and not "whatever you want".  The prompt explicitly states the speed that each disc moves (A completes a revolution in 7 minutes, B in thirteen minutes, C in 17 minutes, and so on).

  Cephiseus, you do not know the size or the direction that the disks spin, so the amount of time the disks take to complete a full revolution has nothing to do with it's speed. The problem especifically says the disks spin at different speeds.

Quote
Take a look at this part of the prompt.  The ellipsis does not change the meaning.  This clearly states that, at the time the red dots are aligned, disc D will be in the same position it was 7 minutes after it first started to move.  You say the answer is 9 minutes.  After 9 minutes, disc D will be nine minutes away from the position it was at when it first started to move, not 7.

  The disks have different sizes, directions of turn, the dots are not aligned and spinning rates so 7 minutes for disk D can and will correspond to 9 minutes for disk E. Imagine that they turn at the same speed - they don't, but I am giving this example to you to make it more clear. The dots are not aligned, so even if they turned at the same speed and direction, the dot of disk D could be aligned after seven minutes with the position of dot in disk E was after 9 minutes. I don't know how to make this any simpler.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2011, 08:40:58 PM »
Hes right.
If you read the prompt, it says when the dots are aligned,
Therefore your answer cant be correct.

  Lol, no. This has nothing to do with anything. Absolutely irrelevant. I am correct in my answer.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

cephissus

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2011, 10:09:29 PM »
 Cephiseus, you do not know the size or the direction that the disks spin, so the amount of time the disks take to complete a full revolution has nothing to do with it's speed. The problem especifically says the disks spin at different speeds.

  The disks have different sizes, directions of turn, the dots are not aligned and spinning rates so 7 minutes for disk D can and will correspond to 9 minutes for disk E. Imagine that they turn at the same speed - they don't, but I am giving this example to you to make it more clear. The dots are not aligned, so even if they turned at the same speed and direction, the dot of disk D could be aligned after seven minutes with the position of dot in disk E was after 9 minutes. I don't know how to make this any simpler.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Time per revolution is speed!  Maybe not in terms of distance, but in terms of degrees per second.  Anyway, that's not needed to understand why you are wrong.  DISC D COULD NOT BE ALIGNED AT NINE MINUTES.

It is in the alignment position at 7 minutes, and then at every full revolution (ie every 19 minutes) after that.  These are the only times it could possibly be aligned with the other dots.  It is not aligned at minute 9.  That is impossible -- the prompt clearly implies all of this.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2011, 10:41:33 PM »
Time per revolution is speed!  Maybe not in terms of distance, but in terms of degrees per second.  Anyway, that's not needed to understand why you are wrong.  DISC D COULD NOT BE ALIGNED AT NINE MINUTES.

It is aligned at 7 minutes, and then at every full revolution (ie every 19 minutes) after that.  These are the only times it is aligned with the other dots.  It is not aligned at minute 9.  That is impossible -- the prompt clearly implies all of this.

  Sigh...

  Ok, I am beating a dead horse, so I will explain this to you one last time. If you don't understand, I will let it go and let you think you're right:

  What matters here is the position where the dot will be and not the time that elapsed. Since at the beggining of the movement the dots were not aligned and since they move at different speeds and directions, then the position that the dot for disk D will be after 7 minutes can align with the position that the dot on disk E will be after 9 minutes since there is no fixed starting point or stable speed and direction of movement.

SUCKMYMUSCLE

cephissus

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #90 on: March 19, 2011, 10:50:45 PM »
Dude, I can't even be bothered to read any of your nonsensical mishmash.  I never thought you were a troll, but your "explanation" along with every reply you've made to me has been so obtuse I'm starting to think you really are one.  Are you just doing this all for some laughs, because no one seems smart enough to see through your bs?  The truth is, I think, no one besides me cared enough to actually examine your answer.  If they did, I'm sure plenty of others would see how absurd it seems.

The prompt clearly says that WHEN THE DOTS ARE ALIGNED (according to you, after 9 minutes) Disc D will be SEVEN MINUTES away from it's starting position.  After 9 minutes, disc D will be 9 MINUTES AWAY FROM ITS STARTING POSITION, NOT SEVEN.

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #91 on: March 19, 2011, 11:05:12 PM »
Dude, I can't even be bothered to read any of your nonsensical mishmash.  I never thought you we're a troll, but your "explanation" along with every reply you've made to me has been so obtuse I'm starting to think you really are one.  Are you just doing this all for some laughs, because no one seems smart enough to see through your bs?  The truth is, I think, no one besides me cared enough to actually examine your answer.  If they did, I'm sure plenty of others would see how absurd it seems.

The prompt clearly says that WHEN THE DOTS ARE ALIGNED (according to you, after 9 minutes) Disc D will be SEVEN MINUTES away from it's starting position.  After 9 minutes, disc D will be 9 MINUTES AWAY FROM ITS STARTING POSITION, NOT SEVEN.

  Sigh...the starting positions are not the same, nor are the speed of revolution or the direction of revolution. Why can't you understand this? You are making the a priori assumption that they are all aligned at the start and that they turn at the same speed, which they don't. These are not variables that aloow you calculate the postion the dots will be after a given amount of time.


SUCKMYMUSCLE

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #92 on: March 19, 2011, 11:17:35 PM »
  I have just re-checked my answer and I am completely right and Cephiseus is wrong. And the really sad thing is that he doesen't even understand why he's wrong. LOL!

SUCKMYMUSCLE

cephissus

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #93 on: March 20, 2011, 01:34:09 AM »
You are making the a priori assumption that they are all aligned at the start and that they turn at the same speed, which they don't. These are not variables that aloow you calculate the postion the dots will be after a given amount of time.


SUCKMYMUSCLE

I didn't assume this.  Can you show where I did?

My answer is clear and should be easy for most people to follow.  Yours, on the other hand, is written in an obscure style and only properly accounts for discs A and E.  

I've plainly showed a flaw in your solution several times, and each time you came back with some nonsensical post about "a priori" assumptions (as if the term "a priori" has any place in a discussion about a completely hypothetical logic problem... I suppose perhaps there was a possibility of me building and consulting a physical model of the rings? LOL), or ring sizes, or speeds, or directions, or starting positions... none of which contain even the shadow of a substantial defense.

At this point, it's up to getbig to judge.  I've clearly explained myself and shown you to be wrong, and anyone who reads these posts should come to the same conclusion.  If there are any further questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

You have a reputation for being a fraud, a charlatan, an annoying know-it-all.  Given the extent and consistency of style in your posting history, and the happenings of this thread, I too believe you genuinely deserve these titles.

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #94 on: March 20, 2011, 02:17:44 AM »
rocket science.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #95 on: March 20, 2011, 08:01:09 AM »
I didn't assume this.  Can you show where I did?

My answer is clear and should be easy for most people to follow.  Yours, on the other hand, is written in an obscure style and only properly accounts for discs A and E.  

I've plainly showed a flaw in your solution several times, and each time you came back with some nonsensical post about "a priori" assumptions (as if the term "a priori" has any place in a discussion about a completely hypothetical logic problem... I suppose perhaps there was a possibility of me building and consulting a physical model of the rings? LOL), or ring sizes, or speeds, or directions, or starting positions... none of which contain even the shadow of a substantial defense.

At this point, it's up to getbig to judge.  I've clearly explained myself and shown you to be wrong, and anyone who reads these posts should come to the same conclusion.  If there are any further questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

You have a reputation for being a fraud, a charlatan, an annoying know-it-all.  Given the extent and consistency of style in your posting history, and the happenings of this thread, I too believe you genuinely deserve these titles.

  Why the aggressive attacks, Cephiseus? If you are right then there is no need to get all riled up. The problem is that you are not right. Let me try to explain this to you from a different angle to see if you realize:

  Do you really think that the test designer would have made it such that 477,857 minutes have transpired since the disks started moving? That is close to half a million minutes, dudes. That is much more than a month. From a common sense pespective, your answer is impossible.

  You are also not taking into consideration that the disks turn in different directions, have different speeds and sizes so two minutes after disk D was in the position it was at seven minutes, it can again be in the position that corresponds to where disk E will be at 9 minutes. This is perfecftly logical as their starting positions, speeds of revolution are all different. ;)

SUCKMYMUSCLE

Shockwave

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #96 on: March 20, 2011, 08:20:54 AM »
Look SMM, if youre right, and were wrong, it should be simple for you to go find the answer on another website and post it here, correct?
Because basic logic states that disc D must be 7 min from where it started to be aligned, so 9 minutes CANNOT be the right answer, as disc D will be 9 min from where it started, not 7.

suckmymuscle

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #97 on: March 20, 2011, 08:49:26 AM »
Look SMM, if youre right, and were wrong, it should be simple for you to go find the answer on another website and post it here, correct?

  The answer is not online.

Quote
Because basic logic states that disc D must be 7 min from where it started to be aligned, so 9 minutes CANNOT be the right answer, as disc D will be 9 min from where it started, not 7.

  Because the disks turn at different speeds and directions, it can be once again at the same position it was after 7 minutes at 9 minutes relative to itself and disk E, which corresponds to the position disk A was at 2 minutes after it started spinning, disk B 3 minutes after it started spinning and disk E 9 minutes after it started spinning. Why can't you guys understand this? :)

SUCkMYMUSCLE

chaos

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #98 on: March 20, 2011, 09:25:45 AM »
Francis being PWNED harshly here. :-\
Liar!!!!Filt!!!!

mantronik

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Re: Solution re 5 concentric, superposed discs
« Reply #99 on: March 20, 2011, 10:08:13 AM »
Why is this posted in this section? Outed!!