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Author Topic: Crystal Cathedral: sign a statement God intends sex only 4 married heterosexuals  (Read 5780 times)
Butterbean
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« Reply #50 on: November 29, 2012, 09:37:33 AM »

avxo, Reeves died earlier this year.

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« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2012, 09:43:34 AM »


actually what I am asking is how if Adam & Eve were the first humans and they that two/ three sons who did those two sons have sex with to continue the human race


Some people believe that there were other people on earth in those days and that they propagated w/them.

But I think they did have sex w/their sisters, nieces, cousins, etc. 

In fact I think Sarah was Abraham's half sister.

Apparently, blood lines were more pure back before sin infiltrated the earth more and more so there was less of an issue of physical problems resulting from "inbreeding."

And as you saw, Adam lived over 900 years and had many sons and daughters...and those sons and daughters had many sons and daughters etc, etc.

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« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2012, 09:45:56 AM »

From the bold text are you admitting a contradiction in the bible based on different personal motivations among its writers? (in the case of Matthew trying to please Jews)? 

Also, while your explanation can make sense as to why Matthew would try to teach that the Messiah came from Abraham, why is it that Abraham aside hardly any of the names in the two lineages agree (in Matthew vs. Luke)?

I don't see a contradiction?  Matthew shows the lineages of Jesus' earthly "father (Joseph)," and Luke shows His lineage through to Mary.

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« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2012, 10:24:38 AM »

I don't see a contradiction?  Matthew shows the lineages of Jesus' earthly "father (Joseph)," and Luke shows His lineage through to Mary.



They both contain Jesus' "earthly father" Joseph, but in Matthew Joseph's father is Jacob, while in Luke Joseph's father is Heli.  Still don't see a contradiction?  Was Joseph's father Jacob or Heli?
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« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2012, 11:50:33 AM »

They both contain Jesus' "earthly father" Joseph, but in Matthew Joseph's father is Jacob, while in Luke Joseph's father is Heli.  Still don't see a contradiction?  Was Joseph's father Jacob or Heli?

I just finished a book that addresses everything you note here.  It was midway through the book so I'll locate the passage and post it here....thx!!

Forgot to find this last night....I'll try again tonight.
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« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2012, 02:38:10 PM »

Forgot to find this last night....I'll try again tonight.


Cool, thanks.

I imagine if the contradiction were a simple oversight on my part it would be a quick reply/rebuttal from you or Butterbean explaining so.  From experience I find when the explanation for a contradiction takes research and time to come up with, it most often results in forcing an unlikely interpretation to fit with what one wants to believe, rather than what a rational likely interpretation may be.
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« Reply #56 on: November 29, 2012, 03:02:47 PM »

avxo, Reeves died earlier this year.



This is getbig... You think we let something as trivial as death interfere?

But in all seriousness, I didn't know; frankly I didn't even realize how old the post I was quoting was.
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Butterbean
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« Reply #57 on: November 30, 2012, 08:06:24 AM »

They both contain Jesus' "earthly father" Joseph, but in Matthew Joseph's father is Jacob, while in Luke Joseph's father is Heli.  Still don't see a contradiction?  Was Joseph's father Jacob or Heli?

Heli was Joseph's Father-in-Law.

More of an explanation from gotquestions.org:

Matthew is following the line of Joseph (Jesus’ legal father), through David’s son Solomon, while Luke is following the line of Mary (Jesus’ blood relative), though David’s son Nathan. There was no Greek word for “son-in-law,” and Joseph would have been considered a son of Heli through marrying Heli's daughter Mary. Through either line, Jesus is a descendant of David and therefore eligible to be the Messiah.
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« Reply #58 on: November 30, 2012, 08:08:21 AM »

This is getbig... You think we let something as trivial as death interfere?

.

I think Reeves would probably have liked this post Grin
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« Reply #59 on: November 30, 2012, 05:14:12 PM »

Heli was Joseph's Father-in-Law.

More of an explanation from gotquestions.org:

Matthew is following the line of Joseph (Jesus’ legal father), through David’s son Solomon, while Luke is following the line of Mary (Jesus’ blood relative), though David’s son Nathan. There was no Greek word for “son-in-law,” and Joseph would have been considered a son of Heli through marrying Heli's daughter Mary. Through either line, Jesus is a descendant of David and therefore eligible to be the Messiah.


I do appreciate the explanation, however even if there was no Greek word for son-in-law, Luke could have very easily communicated that Joseph is Heli's son through marriage to Mary, not simply call Joseph the son of Heli.  Just because there is no exact word does not mean there was no way to communicate it. 

Simply assuming that Heli must have been Mary's father without any other scriptural evidence is simply choosing an unlikely interpretation in an attempt to avoid admitting a contradiction. 

Besides, many Christians say Mary's father was Joachim.
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« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2015, 03:28:16 PM »

Rev. Robert H. Schuller, who built Crystal Cathedral, dies at 88
BY WILLIAM LOBDELL AND MITCHELL LANDSBERG

The Rev. Robert H. Schuller, who built the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove as the embodiment of an upbeat, modern vision of Christianity, only to see his ministry shattered by family discord and financial ruin, has died. He was 88.

Schuller, who was diagnosed with esophageal cancer in 2013, died Thursday morning at a skilled nursing facility in Artesia, his daughter Carol Milner said.

After a working life of great success and influence, Schuller was forced to watch from retirement as much of what he built was laid to waste. In October 2010, his church, then led by his daughter, Sheila Schuller Coleman, declared bankruptcy. That led to the sale of the cathedral and surrounding property to the Roman Catholic Diocese of Orange in February 2012.

Changing tastes, financial overreach and squabbling over a successor were factors in the collapse. Schuller had turned over his pulpit first to his son, Robert A. Schuller, and then to Coleman. In March 2010, he and his wife, Arvella, formally cut ties to the ministry they had founded, bemoaning the "negative and adversarial atmosphere" enveloping the church's leadership.

It was an ignominious end to what had been one of the greatest success stories of postwar American Christianity.

The silver-haired evangelist rose from humble beginnings — he held his first Sunday service at a drive-in movie theater in Orange, preaching atop a snack bar — to become one of the late 20th century's most recognized religious figures.

He created the weekly "Hour of Power" television show that at its peak popularity attracted an international audience of millions, wrote dozens of books with titles such as "Turning Hurts Into Halos" and "If It's Going to Be, It's Up to Me," and built a 40-acre church campus with buildings so striking that the American Institute of Architects gave him its first lifetime achievement award in 2001.

Schuller's popularity rested in his avuncular public manner, tireless energy and unique approach to Christianity that blended pop psychology, unbridled optimism and the Gospel. Offering an alternative to the fire-and-brimstone preacher, Schuller taught that believing in Jesus Christ — along with the power of "possibility thinking" — provided the keys to leading a successful and fulfilling life.

Schuller's ability to think big — and his knack for satisfying congregants' spiritual hunger in practical ways — led to the creation of one of the world's first seeker-sensitive megachurches, drawing 10,000 people to its membership rolls and attracting worldwide television audiences of an estimated 30 million for its Sunday services.

"Find a need and fill it, find a hurt and heal it" was the church's mission.

A generation of megachurch pastors was influenced by Schuller's approach, including bestselling authors Rick Warren of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest and Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Community Church near Chicago. Although those pastors and others attracted new generations of churchgoers, Schuller's audience mostly aged with him.

"Robert Schuller was one of the original pioneers of the megachurch movement," said Donald E. Miller, executive director of the Center for Religion and Civic Culture at USC. "However, his message of positive thinking became frozen in time — appealing to an aging audience of adults, but never really connected to the post-boomer generation."

One of Schuller's legacies is the Crystal Cathedral — since renamed Christ Cathedral — a Philip Johnson-designed structure made of steel and 10,000 panes of glass. Using the pastor's desire for an open-air worship space as inspiration, Johnson created a building where congregants could feel connected to God by gazing out the 12-story-high glass walls and ceiling to view the sky, clouds, trees and birds. Completed in 1980, it cost $20 million to build.

"The Crystal Cathedral is not an attempt to be an architectural ego-statement," Schuller said in a 1997 interview with the American Academy of Achievement. "It's probably the ultimate spiritual and psychological statement that could be made in architectural terms."

Until money problems surfaced at the Crystal Cathedral, Schuller had steered clear of the scandals that led to the downfall of other televangelists. But he did receive a steady stream of criticism from some Christians — including those within his denomination — for his downplaying of sin, tying popular psychology too closely to the Gospel and constructing a series of world-class buildings with millions of dollars that could have been spent on the poor.

The church's bankruptcy filing ultimately revealed a pattern of lavish spending, including generous salaries and benefits for Schuller family members on the church staff. With the congregation aging and donations dwindling, Schuller's ministry could not be sustained.

Born near Alton, Iowa, on Sept. 16, 1926, Schuller was the fifth child of Dutch immigrant parents who lived in a farmhouse without electricity or plumbing. Schuller said he first knew he wanted to be a pastor at age 4 after his missionary uncle returned from China and predicted that was his destiny. Each evening for the next 20 years, Schuller said he prayed to God to become a pastor.

In addition, many days "I would stand in my solitude on the hills by the river, preaching to an imaginary congregation, imitating the sounds and gestures of a seasoned preacher," Schuller wrote.

Nonathletic and overweight as a child, Schuller gained confidence by singing in a high school quartet that won the Iowa state championships. Later, while in college, he competed in a tournament in California, a state whose geography wowed him. He vowed to return someday.

A graduate of Hope College in Holland, Mich., Schuller fell in love with an 18-year-old church organist, Arvella DeHann, while attending nearby Western Theology Seminary. During a three-week period in 1950, he graduated from the seminary, married and was ordained by the Reformed Church in America, a Protestant denomination with roots in the Calvinist Reformation of the 1500s.

Schuller began a five-year stint as a pastor of a Chicago church and discovered the power of delivering simple, positive sermons that spoke to congregants' everyday lives.

"Miraculously, lives in our tiny congregation began to transform," Schuller wrote in his biography. "The congregation began to grow.... I realized that every sermon I preached should be designed not to 'teach' or 'convert' people, but rather to encourage them, to give them a lift. I decided to adopt the spirit, style, strategy and substance of a 'therapist' in the pulpit."

In 1955, Schuller — with $500, his wife and two babies — headed to Orange County to start a church. Finding no available worship space, he rented the Orange Drive-In theater for $10 a week and began preaching atop the snack bar. His wife was the organist.

During the first service, with a few dozen people seated in cars before him, he announced, "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, 'With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.' "

The first weekly collection added up to $83.75.

Holding church services in such a secular setting brought a wave of criticism upon Schuller, including a call from a fellow Reformed Church pastor enraged that the congregation met in the "passion pit" of a drive-in theater where ungodly acts happened.

Nevertheless, the drive-in church grew quickly, with congregants often arriving in their pajamas and listening to the service through tinny speakers clipped to the inside of their car windows.

A fan of Norman Vincent Peale, Schuller invited the author of "The Power of Positive Thinking" to his drive-in church, beginning a decades-long friendship.

"I built my church on Easter services, Christmas Eve services and Norman Vincent Peale," Schuller would often say.

In 1961, architect Richard Neutra designed for Schuller the world's first "walk-in-drive-in" church building in Garden Grove. The controversial $5-million structure — deemed undignified by some — caused 40 members of his congregation, including some of the leadership, to leave in protest. They also had grown uneasy with Schuller's messages because he didn't preach enough from the Bible.

The rift, according to early Schuller biographers and friends Mike and Donna Nason, caused the pastor to be so "haunted" by "the fear of failure" that he became paranoid, temperamental and even feared that he was losing his mind.

They describe Schuller as "a broken man … his hair turned prematurely gray practically overnight."

Despite the controversy, the church continued to grow so rapidly that Schuller was able to set up the Institute for Successful Church Leadership, which is credited, by some, for launching the megachurch movement. Pastors from around the country came to Garden Grove to learn Schuller's secrets, which included providing ample parking and going door-to-door asking nearby residents what they would like in a church.

In 1970, Schuller became the first pastor to televise his weekly services. The "Hour of Power" program remains on the air today, featuring Schuller's grandson Bobby. The show is broadcast on cable TV and locally on KTLA Channel 5 and streamed on the Internet.

The television show also raised the pastor's national profile and set the stage for building the 3,000-seat Crystal Cathedral.

The Crystal Cathedral, dedicated in 1980, soon became a draw for a variety of activities and entertainers — the list became secular enough that state officials deemed the venue too much of a commercial venture and temporarily stripped the property of its tax exemption. In the end, Schuller paid only part of the back taxes the state sought and was again declared a tax-exempt church.

By 1987, the scandals that had engulfed Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker created fundraising shortfalls for other televangelists, including Schuller. His "Hour of Power" and ministry were forced to make major budget cuts and layoffs. But the church was able to rebound.

In 1989, before the Iron Curtain fell, Schuller became the first pastor to preach on television in the Soviet Union.

As a sign of its influence, five U.S. presidents made appearances on the 1,000th "Hour of Power" show in 1990.

Away from the pulpit, Schuller was often quick-tempered and controlling. In a lengthy Times profile in 1983, Bella Stumbo wrote that privately the pastor — "particularly among strangers but even around his faithful staff, friends and wife — is often surprisingly aloof, stiff and uncomfortable, sullen and sour at times, defensive at others. In conversation, he is perpetually dominant, both condescending and pedantic. He displays not the slightest trace of spontaneous humor, rarely smiles and never seems to laugh."

In 1997, Schuller's temper became public after he "aggressively" grabbed a flight attendant by the shoulders in a dispute over service in first class. The pastor was charged with misdemeanor assault on a flight attendant but avoided a trial by apologizing, paying a $1,100 fine and agreeing to six months of supervision by a federal case officer.

In the 21st century, Schuller put the finishing touches on his church campus, adding a $40-million International Center for Possibility Thinking, designed by Getty Center architect Richard Meier. It served as a visitors' center and was included in the sale to the Catholic Church.

Schuller's wife, Arvella, died last year. He is survived by their son Robert Anthony and daughters Sheila Coleman, Jeanne Dunn, Carol Milner and Gretchen Penner; and 19 grandchildren and nine great-grandchildren.

A public memorial service is planned for Christ Cathedral. A date has not been set yet.
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« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2015, 07:30:54 AM »

Rev. Robert H. Schuller, who built Crystal Cathedral, dies at 88
BY WILLIAM LOBDELL AND MITCHELL LANDSBERG

The Rev. Robert H. Schuller, who built the Crystal Cathedral in Garden Grove as the embodiment of an upbeat, modern vision of Christianity, only to see his ministry shattered by family discord and financial ruin, has died. He was 88.



Maybe this should be it's own thread
  Huh

Have you ever been to the Crystal Cathedral ( Christ Cathedral as it's now named ) ?  Beautiful.






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