I sent this in a PM to Butterbean but I think I'll post it here to ask others, and also reply to her answer here.
I think it'll be easier to do it this way. According to Christianity, the following premises are true:
P1: "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
P2: All who die in their sins go to hell
P3: Those who accept Jesus Christ as their savior become saved
P4: All and only the saved go to heaven when they die
Isn't it true, by definition, that babies who die must go to hell? They were alive human beings, born in their original sin, came short of the glory of God, yet never accepted Jesus Christ as their savior, and they died. I'm using babies here as an example, but you can put in mental patients (although I'm pretty sure back in bible times they would have understood a mental patients someone who was evil and had "demons") or babies that die in the womb, etc etc.
If babies who die DO go to heaven, then one of the above premises must be false. If Premise 1 is true, and the baby was born into sin, and the baby still went to heaven, then Premise 2 and 4 have to be false. But if sinners can go to heaven, then why become saved? If the baby was NOT born into sin, then premise 1 has to be false, and the idea of "original sin" is false.
It seems to me that accepting the above premises to be true, and then saying that young babies, babies that die in the womb, mental patients, etc etc all go to heaven is inconsistent. Saint Augustine said that of course babies who die go to hell, because we all deserve hell due to original sin so we're in no position to complain. Even if Saint Augustines is consistent with the above premises, can we really make ourselves believe this is fair?
Butterbean replied in part of her PM response to this question, that if babies go to hell, what kind of just God is that? I think this is why Christians don't believe babies go to hell. They think it would be fair if babies did not go to hell. But I think most people only believe this because they want it to be true, not because they have evidence to believe it is true. I don't think most people, apart from St. Augustine, can say with full 100% confidence that it is okay for dead babies to go to hell. Then once you get into the whole "why aren't they held responsible like others are?" then that can get into a huge sociological argument about why others should not be held responsible (other religion followers, those who never heard of Jesus, those who have not had good teachers of Jesus, parents are anti-christian, etc etc)
Perhaps I've steered off track, but maybe this makes sense somewhat.
Mr. Magoo,
I am a Christian. I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God. I have read the Bible from cover to cover several times, in Spanish and in English, in different versions.
I still don't know for sure whether or not babies and the mentally ill go to hell, but I personally believe from what I read in the Bible that they do not go to hell. This is based on what we Christians read in the Bible, and it is not wishful thinking.
David's baby dies:2 Samuel 12:23But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”Like Butterbean said, David had access to the prophets Samuel and Nathan, whom God spoke directly to. God also inspired David to write many parts of the Bible.
Age of accountability?Isaiah 7:16for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.Matthew 19:14Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”As for the above contradicting
Romans 3:23, "for
all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"
It does not contradict Romans 3:23. Saying that ALL are this or that ALL are that is an expression, a figure of speech. This verse is directed not at babies or at mental patients. This verse is directed at those who believe that they have not sinned, that they are good enough, that they deserve heaven. Romans 3:23 is making it clear to them that they are wrong.
The Bible is the "perfect" word of God, written by imperfect men, inspired by God, written on imperfect "paper" with imperfect "ink", written in imperfect human languages with imperfect expressions and imperfect figures of speech like the one in Romans 3:23. We ourselves use this expression to make a point when we really don't mean ALL.
God could have written the Bible himself, on perfect paper or stone, in a perfect heavenly language. But then we would not be able to read it at all.
But what if we Christians are wrong and babies and the mentally ill go to hell. What if Romans 3:23 does include them when it says that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God? Would this make God evil and unjust? NO!
The Bible is very clear that when we sin, even if we are forgiven, there can be eternal consequences of our sin for generations to come. Because of Adam and Eve, sin and death entered the world and we all have suffered the consequences of their sin. And after Adam and Eve, humans have committed sins and made poor choices that have made many generations suffer because of it.
But likewise, when we obey God and make the right choices, not only are we blessed, but also our children and their children and many people around us can be blessed too even if they had nothing to do with our obedience to God or with our right choices.
So no, I do not believe that if babies and the mentally ill go to hell because of sin, that this would make God evil or unjust. God would continue to be good and just even then. But like I said above, based on what I read in the Bible, babies and the mentally ill do go to heaven when they die.