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Author Topic: A-Rod Is Now A-Victim  (Read 4639 times)
andreisdaman
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2015, 07:21:57 AM »

looking at this again it's probably peak years over consistancy... consistancy gets punished see tommy john , jim kaat, harold baines and fred mcgriff.

Tommy John and Jim Kaat should be in....Jim Kaat played for some very bad teams and would have a lot more victories.....
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2015, 07:23:31 AM »

what what what?

16 year career, lifetime 300 hitter (for 16 years!!) with 382 home runs (in the dead ball era), multiple allstar appearances, MVP award + WS appearance (where he hit .333) and ALL with the same shitty ass team doesnt get in???

AND thats with the 3 years he stayed too long...

Not his fault the redsox had a curse.. and I hate the redsox but Jim Rice today averages 50 home runs easy

Agreed..he was a feared hitter and had some good years at his peak..add to that having to play under the curse and racism in Boston... Cheesy
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2015, 07:27:41 AM »

Also I'm starting to soften up a little on Thurman Munson....stats not there but he dominated the catchers of his era

They kept Ferguson Jenkins out for years due to his smoking weed.....
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Grape Ape
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2015, 07:47:37 AM »

Agreed..he was a feared hitter and had some good years at his peak..add to that having to play under the curse and racism in Boston... Cheesy

His numbers don't justify admission.
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2015, 08:14:22 AM »

His numbers don't justify admission.

Its not ALWAYS about numbers...sometimes its WHO DOMINATED during their era...sometimes during certain decades there just wasn't enough people people doing well at the same time...so you may go by WHO STOOD OUT AMONG HIS PEERS?

However I will admit to pick a HOF'er based on this criteria you would have to have a good understanding of what was going on throughout All of baseball at that time

for instance, soime say that Gary Carter should not be in the HOF, however he was unquestionably THE dominant catcher for a good 7-8 years while he played and put up impressive numbers during that time
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funk51
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2015, 09:38:42 AM »

look up ray schalk, and then explain how he is in the hall of fame...also tinkers to evers to chance a poem got them in...
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Grape Ape
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2015, 10:35:29 AM »

Its not ALWAYS about numbers...sometimes its WHO DOMINATED during their era...sometimes during certain decades there just wasn't enough people people doing well at the same time...so you may go by WHO STOOD OUT AMONG HIS PEERS?

Those who dominated are backed up by numbers.   Rice supposedly was "the most feared" but never was intentionally walked more than 10 times in a season, etc.....

You can't dominate without putting up numbers.

Rice's totals don't warrant HoF induction....
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2015, 10:54:17 AM »

Those who dominated are backed up by numbers.   Rice supposedly was "the most feared" but never was intentionally walked more than 10 times in a season, etc.....

You can't dominate without putting up numbers.

Rice's totals don't warrant HoF induction....

See if this changes your mind,...career stats from the HOF page: I think he qualified in terms of the totality of his career

Rice wasn't great just for a small period of time. In the 12 years starting with 1975, Rice finished first, third, third, fourth, fourth and fifth in MVP balloting, was named to eight All-Star teams, and ranked among the top five in RBIs seven times, home runs five times, total bases five times and batting average four times. His reliability at an elite level was extraordinary. Rice qualified for the batting title in every one of those 12 seasons and never had a truly bad year -- his worst OPS in that run was 112, and that was a season in which he drove in 122 runs. He took 76 percent of his career plate appearances in either the third or fourth spot in the lineup, and batted .308 with runners in scoring position.

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« Reply #33 on: August 18, 2015, 12:29:15 PM »

See if this changes your mind,...career stats from the HOF page: I think he qualified in terms of the totality of his career

Rice wasn't great just for a small period of time. In the 12 years starting with 1975, Rice finished first, third, third, fourth, fourth and fifth in MVP balloting, was named to eight All-Star teams, and ranked among the top five in RBIs seven times, home runs five times, total bases five times and batting average four times. His reliability at an elite level was extraordinary. Rice qualified for the batting title in every one of those 12 seasons and never had a truly bad year -- his worst OPS in that run was 112, and that was a season in which he drove in 122 runs. He took 76 percent of his career plate appearances in either the third or fourth spot in the lineup, and batted .308 with runners in scoring position.





Nope.  Still not elite.

Lifetime OPS of .854 which split into .920 at hit-friendly Fenway and an extremely non Hall worthy .789 on the road.  Only hit above .300 six times in 16 years.  

Lifetime .352 OBP and didn't even hit 400 HRs from a power position.

He had a very good career.  Not elite, which is what the HoF is all about (or was).

Moving beyond pure hitting statistics Rice’s case for the Hall gets even weaker. He stole only 58 career bases in a mere 92 attempts, never won a Gold Glove, and grounded into 315 double plays, poor enough for 6th on the all-time list. So essentially, his statistics show he was a slightly above-average power hitter who rarely got on base, had no speed, and wasn’t much of a fielder. Not the typical profile of a Hall of Famer.
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tom joad
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« Reply #34 on: August 18, 2015, 01:07:47 PM »

Jim Rice shouldn't be in the Hall. 
(but if they take a Red Sox out maybe a Yankee should go to?)
how 'bout Phil Rizzuto?
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andreisdaman
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« Reply #35 on: August 18, 2015, 01:10:44 PM »



Nope.  Still not elite.

Moving beyond pure hitting statistics Rice’s case for the Hall gets even weaker. He stole only 58 career bases in a mere 92 attempts, never won a Gold Glove, and grounded into 315 double plays, poor enough for 6th on the all-time list. So essentially, his statistics show he was a slightly above-average power hitter who rarely got on base, had no speed, and wasn’t much of a fielder. Not the typical profile of a Hall of Famer.

I do think that his failure to hit 400 homeruns works against him...especially since he played in Fenway Park...also his career stats taken as a whole may not be impressive..BUT..I think he got in due to his being dominant at his position in a time when the American League MAY have been weak overall so he stood out....and again sometimes a player gets in that way.....

in your opinion should JOSE CONCEPCION be in the HOF?..compared to PHIL RUZZUTO?

Ruzzuto got in based on the Yankees winning all those world series I think
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« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2015, 01:28:18 PM »

To be honest, I've never looked at Rizzuto's induction.  I will take a look and see what I think.


EDIT:

Well.........outside of playing the premier position on 7 Championship teams and an MVP mixed in (that year was WAY out of context with his career norms), the career numbers are not there.....looks like a Veteran's committee induction.  Likely due to him being one of the more beloved players in the game (including his announcing years) combined with what was mentioned earlier.

That was a quick perusing of the numbers, mind you...maybe a whole couple minutes....don't know what the average SS production was at the time, and didn't look at any advance metrics outside of OPS+, which was below average.

EDIT: His WAR is good, mostly all defense, so it appears he was stellar defensively......another thing that would help him in the eyes of the committee.  Defensive metrics are iffy, even today, haven't check in awhile how it's done historically.

Rice, however, doesn't have that going for him either, because he's a well known asshole.

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tom joad
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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2015, 03:03:53 PM »

To be honest, I've never looked at Rizzuto's induction.  I will take a look and see what I think.

You summarized it well.

Even I enjoyed listening to Phil Rizzuto on Yankees broadcasts in my youth, but the critics of his Hall of Fame induction mention the following (not my original research or thought):

Offense: Rizzuto was just another guy in the lineup

- he got fewer hits than any Hall of Fame shortstop in the live-ball era

- among "modern" Hall of Fame shortstops (since the 1940s), Rizzuto is the only one who didn't rack up either 150 HRs or 150 stolen bases

- of the 19 everyday shortstops during the '40s & '50s (Rizzuto's generation), he ranked 8th in that group in batting average, 7th in OBP, and 13th in slugging

- according to the Complete Baseball Encyclopedia, a lineup of Phil Rizzutos, playing with an average pitching staff, would have compiled a winning percentage of only .494

- ranking all the shortstops of the '40s & '50s re how many runs they created compared to the average shortstop, Rizzuto finishes in 14th place

Defense: everybody agrees Rizzuto was very good but he never was the brand name for SS excellence

- Marty Marion was regarded as the greatest defensive shortstop of Rizzuto's era

- I don't even trust advanced defensive metrics today ... let alone trying to apply them to performances from 60-70 years ago ... but looking simply at assists, of the nineteen 500-assist seasons by shortstops in the '40s & '50s, none were turned in by Rizzuto (whose career high was 458)

So maybe Rizzuto was a greater force than the sum of his numbers?

- Bill James points out that when Rizzuto retired, many articles were written summarizing his fine career... but none of them (as far as he knows) ever suggested that he might be a Hall of Famer

- indeed, during Rizzuto's 15 years on the baseball writers ballot, he never came remotely close to being elected to the Hall of Fame

- so if Rizzuto was even a borderline Hall of Famer, the writers who covered him never saw it

- finally, it took Rizzuto another 13 years on the Veterans Committee ballot until he finally picked up enough votes to collect his plaque after relentless lobbying by his pals all over the game
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Grape Ape
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2015, 05:48:16 PM »

You summarized it well.

Even I enjoyed listening to Phil Rizzuto on Yankees broadcasts in my youth, but the critics of his Hall of Fame induction mention the following (not my original research or thought):

Offense: Rizzuto was just another guy in the lineup

- he got fewer hits than any Hall of Fame shortstop in the live-ball era

- among "modern" Hall of Fame shortstops (since the 1940s), Rizzuto is the only one who didn't rack up either 150 HRs or 150 stolen bases

- of the 19 everyday shortstops during the '40s & '50s (Rizzuto's generation), he ranked 8th in that group in batting average, 7th in OBP, and 13th in slugging

- according to the Complete Baseball Encyclopedia, a lineup of Phil Rizzutos, playing with an average pitching staff, would have compiled a winning percentage of only .494

- ranking all the shortstops of the '40s & '50s re how many runs they created compared to the average shortstop, Rizzuto finishes in 14th place

Defense: everybody agrees Rizzuto was very good but he never was the brand name for SS excellence

- Marty Marion was regarded as the greatest defensive shortstop of Rizzuto's era

- I don't even trust advanced defensive metrics today ... let alone trying to apply them to performances from 60-70 years ago ... but looking simply at assists, of the nineteen 500-assist seasons by shortstops in the '40s & '50s, none were turned in by Rizzuto (whose career high was 458)

So maybe Rizzuto was a greater force than the sum of his numbers?

- Bill James points out that when Rizzuto retired, many articles were written summarizing his fine career... but none of them (as far as he knows) ever suggested that he might be a Hall of Famer

- indeed, during Rizzuto's 15 years on the baseball writers ballot, he never came remotely close to being elected to the Hall of Fame

- so if Rizzuto was even a borderline Hall of Famer, the writers who covered him never saw it

- finally, it took Rizzuto another 13 years on the Veterans Committee ballot until he finally picked up enough votes to collect his plaque after relentless lobbying by his pals all over the game

That appears to be a pretty fair read.  While I loved Rizzuto as a kid listening to the games and I'm sure he was a damn good ballplayer, I take all the romanticizing and so-called purity of the olden days with a grain of salt.

I concur completely on the defensive metrics.  People don't realize UZR etc are relative stats, and that even the creators of the stat say you need a sample of 3 years to get a true read.  Even so, I'm not really a fan.

Second, while I use SABR stats and know James' work pretty well, he's been slipping in my book.  Espcially when recently asked "Harper or Machado?" and he replied "Betts".......please.

BTW, you're a good baseball fan, Joad.
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tom joad
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2015, 11:01:35 AM »

Second, while I use SABR stats and know James' work pretty well, he's been slipping in my book.  Espcially when recently asked "Harper or Machado?" and he replied "Betts".......please.

well James still works for the Red Sox, right? haha
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Grape Ape
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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2015, 11:48:37 AM »

well James still works for the Red Sox, right? haha

We'll see now that they have a more old school baseball guy in charge.
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funk51
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« Reply #41 on: August 21, 2015, 10:59:11 AM »

You summarized it well.

Even I enjoyed listening to Phil Rizzuto on Yankees broadcasts in my youth, but the critics of his Hall of Fame induction mention the following (not my original research or thought):

Offense: Rizzuto was just another guy in the lineup

- he got fewer hits than any Hall of Fame shortstop in the live-ball era

- among "modern" Hall of Fame shortstops (since the 1940s), Rizzuto is the only one who didn't rack up either 150 HRs or 150 stolen bases

- of the 19 everyday shortstops during the '40s & '50s (Rizzuto's generation), he ranked 8th in that group in batting average, 7th in OBP, and 13th in slugging

- according to the Complete Baseball Encyclopedia, a lineup of Phil Rizzutos, playing with an average pitching staff, would have compiled a winning percentage of only .494

- ranking all the shortstops of the '40s & '50s re how many runs they created compared to the average shortstop, Rizzuto finishes in 14th place

Defense: everybody agrees Rizzuto was very good but he never was the brand name for SS excellence

- Marty Marion was regarded as the greatest defensive shortstop of Rizzuto's era

- I don't even trust advanced defensive metrics today ... let alone trying to apply them to performances from 60-70 years ago ... but looking simply at assists, of the nineteen 500-assist seasons by shortstops in the '40s & '50s, none were turned in by Rizzuto (whose career high was 458)

So maybe Rizzuto was a greater force than the sum of his numbers?

- Bill James points out that when Rizzuto retired, many articles were written summarizing his fine career... but none of them (as far as he knows) ever suggested that he might be a Hall of Famer

- indeed, during Rizzuto's 15 years on the baseball writers ballot, he never came remotely close to being elected to the Hall of Fame

- so if Rizzuto was even a borderline Hall of Famer, the writers who covered him never saw it

- finally, it took Rizzuto another 13 years on the Veterans Committee ballot until he finally picked up enough votes to collect his plaque after relentless lobbying by his pals all over the game
i liked rizzuto as an annnouncer, but his numbers were shy of hof standards , it helped that he had friends on the vet committee, peewee reese in particular...who i think got in the same way....
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tom joad
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« Reply #42 on: August 21, 2015, 11:21:31 AM »

what do you NYY fans think about Pettitte & Posada getting their numbers retired this weekend?

... I was listening to the Indians radio broadcast against the Yankees last night and they spent about 25 minutes discussing and being completely bewildered by it.
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funk51
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« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2015, 12:20:02 PM »

what do you NYY fans think about Pettitte & Posada getting their numbers retired this weekend?

... I was listening to the Indians radio broadcast against the Yankees last night and they spent about 25 minutes discussing and being completely bewildered by it.
pretty soon yanks won't have any numbers left... will have to go to 7-A  , 8-A and on and on.8 retired twice bill dickey and yogi berra.
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tom joad
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« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2015, 01:32:36 PM »

must be extra sweet for Posada to have his number retirement ceremony with Girardi looking on ...

(I read Posada's book a month ago and he felt disrespected by Joe his last couple of seasons)
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« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2015, 02:41:51 PM »

what do you NYY fans think about Pettitte & Posada getting their numbers retired this weekend?

... I was listening to the Indians radio broadcast against the Yankees last night and they spent about 25 minutes discussing and being completely bewildered by it.

That whole core thing was bound to get their numbers retired.  I'd give it Posada over Pettitte though, because Pettitte left the Yankees for Houston, which possibly cost them a WS the following year.
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tom joad
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« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2015, 03:07:30 PM »

That whole core thing was bound to get their numbers retired.  I'd give it Posada over Pettitte though, because Pettitte left the Yankees for Houston, which possibly cost them a WS the following year.

what I read (in Joe Torre's book) is that Pettitte never wanted to leave NY, but the Yankees didn't make him a competitive offer during the period when only they had the right to negotiate with him, so when Houston blew the Yankees offer away, Pettitte gave the Astros' owner his word, which he wouldn't break when the Yankees then scrambled to meet or beat the Astros deal.
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tom joad
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« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2015, 03:18:48 PM »

back to Jim Rice ...

he wasn't even the best Red Sox outfielder from the '70s & '80s

Dwight Evans was

... not that Dewey belongs in the Hall of Fame either.
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« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2015, 03:45:04 PM »

what I read (in Joe Torre's book) is that Pettitte never wanted to leave NY, but the Yankees didn't make him a competitive offer during the period when only they had the right to negotiate with him, so when Houston blew the Yankees offer away, Pettitte gave the Astros' owner his word, which he wouldn't break when the Yankees then scrambled to meet or beat the Astros deal.

Yanks told Pettitte to go see what's out there and to come back to them before he does anything.  Apparently he took that as an insult and wanted to be wined and dined. When he got the offer from the Astros Cashman asked his agent if the Yankees offered that would that get them Pettitte, he replied "that will get his attention".  Cashman said he didn't want to play games.

There were also remors of his wife insisting he sign close to home.  Either way, he left, and I think it cost them in'04.
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