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Author Topic: Questions on Christianity: (New Question on page 3)  (Read 3230 times)
Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #75 on: April 19, 2011, 05:49:40 PM »

I don't remember reading in the Bible about Jesus' "second" coming, just about Jesus' return.  As for some people calling it the second coming, it all depends on what they mean by that, second time his body touches the earth, second time Jesus comes from Heaven, etc.  If you want to go by the number of times Jesus was alive on earth, then yes, I guess you could call it his third coming to earth.

I don't remember seeing "second" coming in the bible either. But I've never heard anybody call it his third coming, have you?

Every time I've ever heard it numbered or whatever, it's always the 2nd coming.

EDIT: You said "second time Jesus comes from Heaven" (in bold). It would be his third time coming from heaven.
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« Reply #76 on: April 20, 2011, 06:48:47 AM »

I don't remember seeing "second" coming in the bible either. But I've never heard anybody call it his third coming, have you?

Not before you said it.

Every time I've ever heard it numbered or whatever, it's always the 2nd coming.

Like I said, it depends on what the person saying it means by it.  2nd coming is accurate depending on what they mean by that.

EDIT: You said "second time Jesus comes from Heaven" (in bold). It would be his third time coming from heaven.

Please explain!
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Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #77 on: April 20, 2011, 07:01:20 AM »

Please explain!

The quote was "2nd time Jesus comes from Heaven"

1. Jesus came from heaven when he was born
2. Jesus came from heaven after the 3rd day (his soul was in heaven after he died, correct? Because it couldn't have been in hell, and it couldn't have ceased to exist, so Jesus once giving up the spirit on the cross, the spirit went to heaven, it came back down to his earthly body after the 3rd day)
3. Jesus will come again from heaven during the rapture or whatever (this will be #3)

right?
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Jadeveon Clowney
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« Reply #78 on: April 20, 2011, 07:04:22 AM »

The quote was "2nd time Jesus comes from Heaven"

1. Jesus came from heaven when he was born
2. Jesus came from heaven after the 3rd day (his soul was in heaven after he died, correct? Because it couldn't have been in hell, and it couldn't have ceased to exist, so Jesus once giving up the spirit on the cross, the spirit went to heaven, it came back down to his earthly body after the 3rd day)
3. Jesus will come again from heaven during the rapture or whatever (this will be #3)

right?

If you'd ever cracked a bible jackass, it pretty much says Jesus went to hell after he died. In any case, he certainly didn't go to heaven. 
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Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #79 on: April 20, 2011, 07:04:55 AM »

If you'd ever cracked a bible jackass, it pretty much says Jesus went to hell after he died. In any case, he certainly didn't go to heaven. 

so a perfect being can go to hell?

why did he go to hell?  Huh
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« Reply #80 on: April 20, 2011, 07:08:39 AM »

He went to the place of the dead/hades. i don't know why - but that's what it says.
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loco
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« Reply #81 on: April 20, 2011, 07:33:28 AM »

The quote was "2nd time Jesus comes from Heaven"

1. Jesus came from heaven when he was born
2. Jesus came from heaven after the 3rd day (his soul was in heaven after he died, correct? Because it couldn't have been in hell, and it couldn't have ceased to exist, so Jesus once giving up the spirit on the cross, the spirit went to heaven, it came back down to his earthly body after the 3rd day)
3. Jesus will come again from heaven during the rapture or whatever (this will be #3)

right?

Then allow me to rephrase my quote to say the 2nd time Jesus "bodily" comes from Heaven.  Again, it all depends on what 2nd coming means to the person saying it.

As for Jesus' soul going to Heaven between his death and resurrection, the Bible is not very clear on that.  Maybe he went to Heaven, or maybe he went to a Hades type place that is both a paradise for the righteous on one side of a chasm and a place of torment for the unrighteous on the other side.


Luke 23:43 (New International Version, ©2011)
Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."

Luke 16:26 (New International Version)
"And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us."



Some Christians interpret the verses below to mean that Jesus' soul went to Hell to preach and to declare his sacrifice for humanity:

1 Peter 3:18-20 (New Living Translation)
 18 Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.
 19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison—20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.



Ephesians 4:8-9 (New Living Translation)
8 That is why the Scriptures say,

   “When he ascended to the heights,
      he led a crowd of captives
      and gave gifts to his people.”

 9 Notice that it says “he ascended.” This clearly means that Christ also descended to our lowly world.
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« Reply #82 on: April 20, 2011, 10:33:21 AM »

New Question (Easter Related):

Pretty simple and straightforward

I hear people talking about waiting for 2nd coming of Jesus. During the rapture, or after the rapture, before the tribulation, or whatever order of events that are going to take place. But wouldn't it be the 3rd coming of Jesus? Jesus was born (1), Jesus rose out of the tomb on the 3rd day (2), so when Jesus comes back again, wouldn't it be the 3rd time?

I've always heard people talking about the 2nd coming though.

 Huh



Maybe people that refer to it as the Second Coming are referring to periods of time that He lives among us. 

So the first time being that He first came and lived among us and was born to die for our sins and conquer death for those who believe.  The time of what they refer to as His Second Coming is when He comes back at the end of the great tribulation and establishes His Kingdom and will live among us.

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Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #83 on: April 20, 2011, 11:46:41 AM »



Maybe people that refer to it as the Second Coming are referring to periods of time that He lives among us. 

So the first time being that He first came and lived among us and was born to die for our sins and conquer death for those who believe.  The time of what they refer to as His Second Coming is when He comes back at the end of the great tribulation and establishes His Kingdom and will live among us.



He lived in 1 time period from his birth till the cross when he gave up his spirit

He lived in 2nd time period from the time he came back to his body in the tomb, until he rose up to heaven again

So if we're talking about time periods he lived on earth, it would still be the third
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« Reply #84 on: April 20, 2011, 12:05:01 PM »

He lived in 1 time period from his birth till the cross when he gave up his spirit

He lived in 2nd time period from the time he came back to his body in the tomb, until he rose up to heaven again

So if we're talking about time periods he lived on earth, it would still be the third


Have you ever asked someone who refers to it as His Second Coming moreso than His Return what they mean by it? 


Here I found this....focuses more clearly on the roles He fulfills....and in which case His appearing after being ressurected would still be in teh first role imo.


(www.gotquestions.org)
Question: "What is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ?"

Answer: The second coming of Jesus Christ is the hope of believers that God is in control of all things, and is faithful to the promises and prophecies in His Word. In His first coming, Jesus Christ came to earth as a baby in a manger in Bethlehem, just as prophesied. Jesus fulfilled many of the prophecies of the Messiah during His birth, life, ministry, death, and resurrection. However, there are some prophecies regarding the Messiah that Jesus has not yet fulfilled. The second coming of Christ will be the return of Christ to fulfill these remaining prophecies. In His first coming, Jesus was the suffering Servant. In His second coming, Jesus will be the conquering King. In His first coming, Jesus arrived in the most humble of circumstances. In His second coming, Jesus will arrive with the armies of heaven at His side.

The Old Testament prophets did not make clearly this distinction between the two comings. This can be seen in Isaiah 7:14, 9:6-7 and Zechariah 14:4. As a result of the prophecies seeming to speak of two individuals, many Jewish scholars believed there would be both a suffering Messiah and a conquering Messiah. What they failed to understand is that there is only one Messiah and He would fulfill both roles. Jesus fulfilled the role of the suffering servant (Isaiah chapter 53) in His first coming. Jesus will fulfill the role of Israel’s deliverer and King in His second coming. Zechariah 12:10 and Revelation 1:7, describing the second coming, look back to Jesus being pierced. Israel, and the whole world, will mourn for not having accepted the Messiah the first time He came.

After Jesus ascended into heaven, the angels declared to the apostles, “‘Men of Galilee,’ they said, ‘why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven’” (Acts 1:11). Zechariah 14:4 identifies the location of the second coming as the Mount of Olives. Matthew 24:30 declares, “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory.” Titus 2:13 describes the second coming as a “glorious appearing.”

The second coming is spoken of in greatest detail in Revelation 19:11-16, “I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. ‘He will rule them with an iron scepter.’ He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Recommended Resource: The Second Coming: Signs of Christ's Return and the End of the Age by John MacArthur.



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Reeves
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« Reply #85 on: April 20, 2011, 09:40:46 PM »

I don't remember seeing "second" coming in the bible either. But I've never heard anybody call it his third coming, have you?

Every time I've ever heard it numbered or whatever, it's always the 2nd coming.

EDIT: You said "second time Jesus comes from Heaven" (in bold). It would be his third time coming from heaven.

Personally, I wouldn't give it much thought as it is a unfortunate truth that Jesus hasn't been seen nor heard from in just over two thousand years.  However, to answer your question...He came the first time to offer himself up as a sacrifice for all mankind.  The second time he comes it will be to gather believers to him as was promised, i.e., the rapture of the church.

Like I said before, it is a simple book the Bible.  There is a great deal of truth within its pages, especially so the New Testament with the teachings of the Christ and his apostles.  That some would make is difficult is understandable as Jesus himself taught of their kind. 

"You blind guides!  You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel", or a personal favorite of  mine - "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean."

If I, an admitted and dedicated atheist can easily see and understand the words of the one so many call "Lord", how is that some here cannot?  And no, I am not picking on you or anyone here really.  Just thought your question posed an opportunity to help out.  Later, young man.
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Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #86 on: April 21, 2011, 05:37:48 AM »

I'm sorry to disappoint you Reeves but the Bible is not a "simple book". I don't understand how anyone who knows any history at all can make that claim. The smartest men that ever lived wrestled with some of the ideas and statements that are in the Bible. Just look at all the different religions and different sects within each religion, and even different sets of beliefs within those different sects. For example, not all "baptists" believe the same thing.

I'm not calling you a liar, but if you really believe that you can "easily understand" everything the Bible says because it is a "simple book", I think you are delusional. People have too much inherit bias in them to understand 100% the intentions, goals, context, etc that authors over thousands of years ago meant when they wrote in different languages that are not always perfectly translated into 21st century English for example.
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« Reply #87 on: April 21, 2011, 06:15:05 AM »

I'm sorry to disappoint you Reeves but the Bible is not a "simple book". I don't understand how anyone who knows any history at all can make that claim. The smartest men that ever lived wrestled with some of the ideas and statements that are in the Bible. Just look at all the different religions and different sects within each religion, and even different sets of beliefs within those different sects. For example, not all "baptists" believe the same thing.

I'm not calling you a liar, but if you really believe that you can "easily understand" everything the Bible says because it is a "simple book", I think you are delusional. People have too much inherit bias in them to understand 100% the intentions, goals, context, etc that authors over thousands of years ago meant when they wrote in different languages that are not always perfectly translated into 21st century English for example.

Agreed!
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« Reply #88 on: April 21, 2011, 06:29:05 AM »

He lived in 1 time period from his birth till the cross when he gave up his spirit

He lived in 2nd time period from the time he came back to his body in the tomb, until he rose up to heaven again

So if we're talking about time periods he lived on earth, it would still be the third

Mr. Magoo, if you look at it that way, then I agree that to you it would be the 3rd coming of Christ.  Different believers look at it differently.  For example, some Christians believe that God the Son, hundreds of years before he was named Jesus the Christ, appeared to Abraham twice.  That's how they interpret these verses:

Genesis 18:1-2 (New International Version, ©2011)

Genesis 18
The Three Visitors

 1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.

Genesis 19:24
Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD out of the heavens.

God the Son on earth, raining down burning sulfur from God the Father up in Heaven?


Melchizedek
Genesis 14:18-19
Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,  "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth.

Hebrews 6:20
where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.

Hebrews 7:2
and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything. First, the name Melchizedek means “king of righteousness”; then also, “king of Salem” means “king of peace.”

"Many Evangelical Christan denominations teach that Melchizedek was actually a pre-incarnate Christophany, meaning a premonition or earlier manifestation before the virgin birth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melchizedek#Evangelical_Christian_beliefs


That would put the number at what, the 5th coming?
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« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2011, 09:24:31 AM »

Reeves, you're the most bombastic pixie on the interweb.
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« Reply #90 on: April 21, 2011, 08:38:42 PM »

I'm sorry to disappoint you Reeves but the Bible is not a "simple book". I don't understand how anyone who knows any history at all can make that claim. The smartest men that ever lived wrestled with some of the ideas and statements that are in the Bible. Just look at all the different religions and different sects within each religion, and even different sets of beliefs within those different sects. For example, not all "baptists" believe the same thing.

I'm not calling you a liar, but if you really believe that you can "easily understand" everything the Bible says because it is a "simple book", I think you are delusional. People have too much inherit bias in them to understand 100% the intentions, goals, context, etc that authors over thousands of years ago meant when they wrote in different languages that are not always perfectly translated into 21st century English for example.

Like I said, some will strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.  If Bible says do not commit adultery, what does that mean?

Do not commit adultery.  That's pretty simple, isn't it?  Of course it is, unless  you want to interpret (or rather reinterpret) those words to your individual favor. 

Me?   I see a lot of wisdom in the Bible, especially so the words of Jesus and his Apostles.  Unfortunately I see a lot of bullshit in mankind and lately, here in the 21st century I tend to think the bullshit is getting worse.   You are either Christian or not.  You cannot pick and choose from Jesus' teachings just to suit your desires and be a true follower of the Christ.

Just look at someone like Coach.  He claims Christ but in his words he most definitely denies any association a lot more than just three times before the cock crows.  The truth is always simple, whether or not people will follow it is something entirely different.
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Reeves
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« Reply #91 on: April 21, 2011, 08:40:49 PM »

Reeves, you're the most bombastic pixie on the interweb.

Thanks.  I tend to think of myself as above average intellect wise, but waaaaaaaay below average height wise.   Grin
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« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2011, 05:57:09 AM »

Like I said, some will strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.  If Bible says do not commit adultery, what does that mean?

Do not commit adultery.  That's pretty simple, isn't it?  Of course it is, unless  you want to interpret (or rather reinterpret) those words to your individual favor.  

Me?   I see a lot of wisdom in the Bible, especially so the words of Jesus and his Apostles.  Unfortunately I see a lot of bullshit in mankind and lately, here in the 21st century I tend to think the bullshit is getting worse.   You are either Christian or not.  You cannot pick and choose from Jesus' teachings just to suit your desires and be a true follower of the Christ.

Just look at someone like Coach.  He claims Christ but in his words he most definitely denies any association a lot more than just three times before the cock crows.  The truth is always simple, whether or not people will follow it is something entirely different.

Yes, there are plenty of things in the Bible that are very clear and simple, and these are the ones that I believe we should concentrate on learning and obeying.  But there are also plenty of things in the Bible that are not very clear and that are very complex.  They must be studied and discussed, but I personally don't lose sleep over them.  

On your earlier post, you made a blanket statement about the Bible, that the Bible is simple.  Much of it isn't.
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« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2011, 08:39:08 PM »

Yes, there are plenty of things in the Bible that are very clear and simple, and these are the ones that I believe we should concentrate on learning and obeying.  But there are also plenty of things in the Bible that are not very clear and that are very complex.  They must be studied and discussed, but I personally don't lose sleep over them.  

On your earlier post, you made a blanket statement about the Bible, that the Bible is simple.  Much of it isn't.

I stand by my words. The Bible is nowhere near complex and it shouldn't be.  That which is important is made simple.  Why would anyone really care about that which does not concern them? 

The New Testament is important to those that believe in and really follow the Christ.  The Old Testament is primarily for the Hebrews although there are some things to recommend it from a historical and moral viewpoint, otherwise a great deal of it is "stories".  Kinda like Aesop's fables, albeit those that believe in the Judeo-Christian God hold to them as being true as is their right.

It would be difficult to find a better atheist spokesman for the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth than myself, but then I know his words better than most that claim to follow him.  Better still, my knowledge is distilled if you will, to the essence of what Christianity is, this as opposed to drivel such as is passed out by catholicism or the ass clowns of the latter day stains...errrrr..."saints".

I credit all this to a dear friend that is Christian and not some "church".  What I know was told me by a man that loves the Christ.

Oh, and fuck islam.   Grin
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« Reply #94 on: April 23, 2011, 10:37:21 AM »


I credit all this to a dear friend that is Christian and not some "church".  What I know was told me by a man that loves the Christ.


REeves, does your friend (or do you) happen to have a simple explanation and or good analogy for the Trinity that unbelievers could easily understand?
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Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #95 on: April 23, 2011, 11:56:42 AM »

I might type out a longer reply when I have more time, but I'm busy with papers and finals so I'll just type this short post.

I still disagree with Reeves. I think he is arrogant. I've talked about the Bible to people who've spent their entire lives studying it, and these include Oxford grads and one who got his doctorate in philosophy from MIT. I find it comical that anyone would seriously claim that the bible is an easy book.

I highly doubt that "Reeves" from getbig.com knows more about the bible than any of these people.
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Mr. Magoo
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« Reply #96 on: April 24, 2011, 04:06:01 PM »


Every time I've ever heard it numbered or whatever, it's always the 2nd coming.


from USA today

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2011/04/franklin-graham-youll-see-jesus-return-on-twitter-youtube/1

"Charge your batteries, folks. You won't want to miss the Second Coming of Christ, arriving on the clouds, on Twitter or YouTube"
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« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2011, 05:39:59 AM »

It would be difficult to find a better atheist spokesman for the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth than myself, but then I know his words better than most that claim to follow him. 

"Christian atheism is an ideology in which the God of Christianity is rejected but the moral teachings of Jesus are followed. It is a belief that the stories of Jesus were meant to be related to in modern life but not taken literally. This belief is that the God of Christianity is nothing but a symbol."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
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« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2011, 11:03:29 AM »

With the caveat he always gave me that anything he has ever said has most likely already been said by others, I will be happy to young lady. Please keep in mind this is from a poor memory and as such paraphrased.

There is the sun in the sky, the light it gives off and the heat that is produced.  Three distinct qualities of this heavenly body, all contained within the One.

With regard to accepting Christ and living as such, he would say this. 

A person is like a glove in that the glove has been made in the image of a hand but it is nothing really until it is filled by the hand that made it.  Only then does it have true purpose.

He taught me much.  A lot more than some lying, money grubbing "man or woman of god", aka televangelists and the like.

I've heard the sun analogy but I don't think I've ever heard the glove one.  Pretty good!

I hope you don't think that most Christians approve of many of those televangelists. 
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« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2011, 11:08:41 AM »

from USA today

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2011/04/franklin-graham-youll-see-jesus-return-on-twitter-youtube/1

"Charge your batteries, folks. You won't want to miss the Second Coming of Christ, arriving on the clouds, on Twitter or YouTube"

Looks like Franklin Graham called it Jesus' Return and the writer of the article called it the Second Coming....not that it matters though.
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