The Getbig experiment. Training photo at 69.

[pellius]

Many swear by triceps pressdowns but they are not that good compared to the lying extensions. My own experience led me to the DOMS theory. I was having a go at getting my arms big again back in 1998. So I was using pressdowns and was applying mechanical tension until the muscle was shaking. When my arms reached a bit over 17 inches the growth stopped. What the heck was this? So I had to do something different. Imagine my surprise when I got very sore from doing the lying extensions. How was that possible when I was training triceps severely and brutally? So a light went on in my brain. I wondered what would happen if I could keep my triceps sore. The result was rapid growth. This went against Hans Selye's theory of Stress. I shouldn't be getting stronger but I was.

I concluded that triceps pressdowns were not an effective triceps exercise. The lying extensions put the triceps in a stretched position and that helps them grow when trained hard. The pads contain the arms and therefore the user can exert maximum force using the triceps alone. Well, that is what should happen. Guys still manage to cheat and I see their shoulders rising and the arms moving apart. If your brain can't keep your body doing the right thing re putting severe mechanical tension on the triceps then they are simply not going to grow.

Maybe I missed it but what variation of lying tricep extensions are you referring to?

[pellius]

So this is your way to tell me that there will not be any video clips to compare? I don't design gym equipments for living, but it doesn't mean I don't do it at all. In fact, I have design and build many prototypes, and why? Because they were ordered from me, because the customer know what I can do. For example I made them a rowing handle, which gives you the opportunity to use as much load you want, but without any straps. You all know seated row and those ordinary handles like this:

If you need to go heavy with this, you sooner or later need straps to maintain your grip. I hate straps and didn't want to use them, so with my variation, you don't need them at all, and the answer is so simple. How you would solve this problem with your extra ordinary skills to overcomplicate training ?      

What does yours look like that you don't need straps?

[flinstones1]

gh15, is DOMS required for muscle growth?  

very good question.  also curious what his thoughts are on going to failure.

[Donny]

Use to be a good board. That board use to be home base to me once I got back into bodybuilding. Who is running the show there anyway? Who's admin? And I remember Panting? The woman mod, right? When the old fogeys took over it really became just an Arnold worshiping phag board.

they have just Idiots as Admin..the worst is an old fart called Mike Payne who is a religious ranting psycho(he is a Brit that lives in Ireland ) The posts are a lot better here. I only came across GetBig because they always slagged this site down..i feel at Home here. It's really boring in IA. You are not missing anything believe me

[pellius]

they have just Idiots as Admin..the worst is an old fart called Mike Payne who is a religious ranting psycho(he is a Brit that lives in Ireland ) The posts are a lot better here. I only came across GetBig because they always slagged this site down..i feel at Home here. It's really boring in IA. You are not missing anything believe me

LOL! Same here. I found my way to this board because of all the crap IA gave to the people here. I wonder how many people IA has brought over here. This board can get pretty brutal -- even cruel -- but they keep it real here and it's not a place for cry babies. I do give Vince props for sticking it out. Love him or hate him he's a fixture here and part of what makes GetBig -- GetBig.

Fair dinkum.

[bigmc]

LOL! Same here. I found my way to this board because of all the crap IA gave to the people here. I wonder how many people IA has brought over here. This board can get pretty brutal -- even cruel -- but they keep it real here and it's not a place for cry babies. I do give Vince props for sticking it out. Love him or hate him he's a fixture here and part of what makes GetBig -- GetBig.

Fair dinkum.

you appear to get genuinely upset by some of the stuff on here

thought that ass kissing shit over there would be more your thing

[pellius]

you appear to get genuinely upset by some of the stuff on here

thought that ass kissing shit over there would be more your thing

Sure I get pissed off over here just like I do in real life. But I don't see why that would mean you like ass kissing. Of course ass kissing/nut hugging nowadays just means that you agree with someone that others do not. But I got banned from IA anyway. And since I was chosen to be part of the gh15 original eleven apostles and also chosen to be an elf (undeserved btw) I pretty much feel above it all now. When you can hook people up with strango or Nordic you realize the tremendous power you wield. It's humbling and not to be taken lightly. It's a huge responsibility but it's not without it's perks. I get a huge discount on sushi, pineapple juice and Brewers ice cream.

Please fellas, no PMs. The elfs will contact you if you matter.

[wes]

Dude...get a grip on yourself...show some respect...this guy might be a little past his prime but he achieved a lot when he was younger and deserves respect for that alone...the fact that he is trying to regain his strength and muscle mass is a tribute to his competitive spirit....he refuses to give up on himself and is trying to show that you can turn back the clock somewhat instead of crying about how feeble you are when you get to be his age....

what have YOU done in your life bodybuilding-wise??

Good post!

[wes]

My current workout routine is basically one muscle group per day with one complete cycle taking six days. For example: I work arms, biceps, triceps and forearms on Monday, Tuesday I work hams and calves, Wednesday I work back, Thursday shoulders, traps and abs, Friday chest and Saturday quads and calves. I limit my routine to what I can accomplish in about 45 minutes and never more than an hour. If I do cardio, that time is added time. Therefore longest workout would last 1 1/2 hours. I do a warm-up set and two to four work sets for each exercise. Usually, I do about three or four exercises for each muscle worked. Rest time between sets is never less then a minute and up to three minutes for larger muscles like quads. Every six to eight weeks I take a week off and just swim laps or do something different that requires some exercise. This routine allows a maximum recovery time which is more important the older one is. My body responds well to this.

I am fairly lean normally. I eat a normal healthy diet with an eye to protein intake. I am not a big junk food person, so that isn't an issue for me. My height is 5'11" and I weigh around 209 presently. I would guess that my body fat is about 12%. My arms and my neck both measure about 17" (no double chin). My waist is 34-35".

When I was a teenager, I was exceptionally skinny. Same approximate height as today, but weighed 126 lbs. This is what got me started weight training. I have trained most all of my adult life with very few breaks. I train to be fit and not to be a competitive bodybuilder or a muscle freak (don't believe I have the genetics for that). The most I ever weighed was 225 lbs. This was when I was twenty-nine. When I am not lifting, I eat less and generally drop some weight. My base weight most of my adult life has been 185-195 lbs. Over the last two years I've added some lean muscle mass arms a result of being on TRT (testosterone replacement therapy). This is due to my being treated by my doctor for low testosterone levels.

When I do take a block of time off from the gym and return to working out, I drop the poundages down, going light the first week back. It is all about how I feel. I am not looking to break any records or prove anything. I can generally gauge how I am doing by how sore I am. A little sore for a couple of days seems about right for me. More than that is a sure sign I am overdoing it.  Given my laid back nature, that isn't usually a problem. LOL.

The saying is that a picture is worth a thousand words....here is two thousand words worth. Both are recent. The headless one is about two months old and the other one is maybe a year ago.

Looking good there my friend....big props!!

Keep pumping!!

[BigAnt]

Vince your lying tricep ext. machine is very similar to Larry Scott's "craddle bench" extensions, yes get full range of motion, lock elbows in so movement is much stricter and less trauma on elbows...Nice machine you have!

Did you ever experiemnt with close grip benches and dips for tricep exercises?

[andreisdaman]

Good post!

Thanks...I think what Vince is trying to do is very admirable.....yes its good for us to give him a little ribbing in jest, but not to destroy the guy because he wants to look good at his age.

[TrueGrit]

Two inches in two months is like something FLEX or Men's Health would promise.

The wily old fox must know something..

[dyslexic]

As a bodybuilder, you no doubt have experience D.O.M.S. ~ You also know from experience that training hard despite such soreness not only results in continuous soreness, but also tends to invite a sense of over-training and eventual staleness.

It seem rather superfluous, therefore, to admonish you to avoid this kind of soreness to the extent possible, while at the same time not giving up any of your training time and abilities to engage in intense training.

Yet, despite the good sense such an admonition makes, most bodybuilders trudge on, driving even harder through the pain they should be trying to avoid.

The common assumption seems to be that such pain is some sort of a signal - 'no pain, no gain" - that growth is occurring. It is not.

Indeed, this kind of pain is a signal that a destructive process is taking place. Growth and Development slows down during such periods.

Another common fallacy among bodybuilders is that the pain they experience near the tie-ins between two muscle groups-for example, near the base of the bicep, top of the tricep, or near the armpit where the delt and pec come together - is indicitative that the exercise they are doing is going to help that particular area in some sort of "isolated" way or localized sense.

It does NOT.

The pain that is felt is merely stretched or torn connective tissue, probably resultant from the negative/eccentric phase of the applied exercise(s). Again, this kind of pain is a warning that destructive process is in the works- it does not signal growth.

By careful and progressive application of heavier and heavier eccentric movements, performed over a period of months and years, the ligaments and tendons, as well as the connective tissues near the tendons can be strengthened such that minimal pain, if any, will be felt after heavy training.

The line between adaptive stress and destructive stress is a fine line. Your bodybuilding efforts can only be maximized if you learn how to walk the gauntlet between these two states, never undertraining for fear of lost effect, and never overtraining for fear of injury, boredom and diminished gains.

No bodybuilder is immune to overtraining. Bodybuilders have a powerful will to excel. This desire to be the BEST and to WIN is healthy, but it has to be tempered with wisdom and most of all PATIENCE.

[andreisdaman]

As a bodybuilder, you no doubt have experience D.O.M.S. ~ You also know from experience that training hard despite such soreness not only results in continuous soreness, but also tends to invite a sense of over-training and eventual staleness.

It seem rather superfluous, therefore, to admonish you to avoid this kind of soreness to the extent possible, while at the same time not giving up any of your training time and abilities to engage in intense training.

Yet, despite the good sense such an admonition makes, most bodybuilders trudge on, driving even harder through the pain they should be trying to avoid.

The common assumption seems to be that such pain is some sort of a signal - 'no pain, no gain" - that growth is occurring. It is not.

Indeed, this kind of pain is a signal that a destructive process is taking place. Growth and Development slows down during such periods.

Another common fallacy among bodybuilders is that the pain they experience near the tie-ins between two muscle groups-for example, near the base of the bicep, top of the tricep, or near the armpit where the delt and pec come together - is indicitative that the exercise they are doing is going to help that particular area in some sort of "isolated" way or localized sense.

It does NOT.

The pain that is felt is merely stretched or torn connective tissue, probably resultant from the negative/eccentric phase of the applied exercise(s). Again, this kind of pain is a warning that destructive process is in the works- it does not signal growth.

By careful and progressive application of heavier and heavier eccentric movements, performed over a period of months and years, the ligaments and tendons, as well as the connective tissues near the tendons can be strengthened such that minimal pain, if any, will be felt after heavy training.

The line between adaptive stress and destructive stress is a fine line. Your bodybuilding efforts can only be maximized if you learn how to walk the gauntlet between these two states, never undertraining for fear of lost effect, and never overtraining for fear of injury, boredom and diminished gains.

No bodybuilder is immune to overtraining. Bodybuilders have a powerful will to excel. This desire to be the BEST and to WIN is healthy, but it has to be tempered with wisdom and most of all PATIENCE.

agreed...I never work out a muscle group when it is still sore...it does soon lead to burnout and overtraining.....I wait until the muscle is fully recovered and there is no pain at all

[wes]

In my opinion,it`s not the greatest thing to train a muscle that hasn`t fully recouperated.

If just slightly sore,no big deal,but if you can`t walk right from Modays leg day,I wouldn`t train them again on Thursday.

Just my thoughts,but you do not grow in the gym,you only grow while the worked muscle is resting, and being fed correctly of course.

Right now I`m training 6 X a week,everything worked twice weekly.........haven`t done this in eons and it`s been very productive for me.

Keep pumping Vince,my opinion is just that,an opinion.......if what you are doing is working,and it seems that it is,then run with it.

Good luck and stay focused! 

[bigmc]

Thanks...I think what Vince is trying to do is very admirable.....yes its good for us to give him a little ribbing in jest, but not to destroy the guy because he wants to look good at his age.

the fact that you think someone can be destroyed by a comment on a bb board


sums you up quite nicely

[dyslexic]

Lactic acid does also possess another great quality. Once it builds up and burns real bad, you can shake it out and it (which ads oxygen) and it will return to the muscle basically as ATP (Adenosine Tri Phosphate) and give you energy again.

It would be much like a cars useless polluntant *exhaust* going right back into the fuel tank and being converted as fuel.


Pretty cool, our bodies.

[Coach is Back!]

gh15, is DOMS required for muscle growth? 

No...IT DOES NOT.

[calfzilla]

I didn't think so. 

[andreisdaman]

the fact that you think someone can be destroyed by a comment on a bb board


sums you up quite nicely

it seems to me thats obviously your intention, although its failing...

[Hulkotron]

Didn't Basile say he wasn't going to post here anymore

[dyslexic]

No...IT DOES NOT.

Coach 15... 

[Vince B]

Listen to all these experts. Provide more than just comments when claiming things as facts. I will accept a limited anecdotal experience if significant gains or otherwise resulted.

Dyslexic talks about avoiding overtraining and destructive injuries but also to avoid undertraining. How on earth can one tell which is which?

I can tell you that much of what we learned about training is false. Quite literally false. The one thing they got right in the fifties was that training broke down tissue and the body overcompensated and so the muscles grew larger. How exactly that happens is probably now known but unlikely by most here. In the vacuum of knowledge, appear all manner of experts who really know very little.

For example, if you can make your arms grow an inch in a month while training only arms will the rest of your upper body get smaller? Answer: no. I know this for a fact. The problem with most blokes here is that they don't experiment. If you are lazy you might want to try only arms for a month. See what happens and report back. Don't sit there as some armchair expert saying this and that.

Don't ask gh15 about hypertrophy in my thread. He has nothing of value to contribute. Those who suggest DOMS is not related to hypertrophy are wrong. Here is a way to find out for sure. Okay, train your left arm biceps doing what you usually do. For the right arm do whatever it takes to get the muscle really sore for several days. On the third day hit the sore biceps again just as hard. Lots of maximum sets as I advocate. If there is no difference between the two arms after a month I will be surprised. I would prefer if you can make both biceps and triceps sore for that month. Then you will experience very rapid growth.
Yes, injuries are a worry with any kind of extreme training. If you have weaknesses in your connective tissue they will be the weak link when the resistance gets heavier. In other words, former injuries will be the first to present as the kind of soreness you don't want to have. You will have to use good judgement here to avoid the kind of injury that will cause you to suspend training. Any sharp, acute pain is a sign that something isn't right. Little niggling pains might go away or they might get aggravated and become a worry.

[Vince B]

Didn't Basile say he wasn't going to post here anymore

Yes, but I was going to keep posting my progress at Ironage. I closed the thread there. At least here on Getbig there is plenty of negativity that helps to motivate me to try harder.

[Coach is Back!]

Geez Vince, look I like the posters over at Ironage but I know if go over there and even slightly debate almost any science of case study I'll get kicked off. Exept for you doing this on your own you have no basis for a conclusion. Sorry Vince, but again. DOMS and hypertrophy have nothing to do with each other.