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Author Topic: Eternal Security according to the Bible  (Read 4625 times)
Agnostic007
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« Reply #50 on: August 05, 2011, 11:51:01 AM »

People who "say they believe" in Jesus go to Heaven?  That is not Christianity.  That is your own created system.  You should start a new religion!    Grin

Christians have to really believe by faith in Jesus Christ, and though it won't make them perfect, it should show in their life.

"there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in UFO's or Bigfoot." 

And there is no eternal punishment for NOT believing in Jesus either.  Eternal punishment is for unforgiven sinners.   And Jesus, by his own words, is the only way to forgiveness of sins, the only way out of eternal punishment.    Smiley

We were discussing once saved always saved... so if that is correct, then someone who at 21 was a believer and lived a "christian" life, backslide at 35 into robbing banks to support their heroin habit... would go to heaven and the guy working the soup kitchen down the street as a volunteer, who happens to be buddhist, goes to hell according to common christian theology. I didn't make it up   
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loco
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« Reply #51 on: August 05, 2011, 12:02:06 PM »

We were discussing once saved always saved... so if that is correct, then someone who at 21 was a believer and lived a "christian" life, backslide at 35 into robbing banks to support their heroin habit... would go to heaven and the guy working the soup kitchen down the street as a volunteer, who happens to be buddhist, goes to hell according to common christian theology. I didn't make it up   

What you made up was the part about someone being saved by "saying" he/she believes.  Just saying it won't do it.  That person must really believe.
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loco
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« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2011, 12:05:12 PM »

and this is where they lose credibility..

"I don't know" sounds a lot better than "god works in mysterious ways and the devil has power over the earth and god won't interfere in things unless you pray for help then he might answer yes or no or wait, and ....etc etc."  

Those answers may be appropriate in certain cases, or might really bring comfort to the person listening.  But I agree that sometimes it is better to just say "I don't know", if one really doesn't know.  This doesn't just apply to Christians.  I have spoken with certain atheists who pretend to have an answer or an explanation for everything.
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Deicide
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« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2011, 01:51:14 PM »

Those answers may be appropriate in certain cases, or might really bring comfort to the person listening.  But I agree that sometimes it is better to just say "I don't know", if one really doesn't know.  This doesn't just apply to Christians.  I have spoken with certain atheists who pretend to have an answer or an explanation for everything.

I don't know is the best answer to unanswered questions, always. Some people need an answer to everything.
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probound2
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« Reply #54 on: September 12, 2011, 09:57:05 AM »

But your Corinthians verses are not referring to salvation.  They are referring to self-discipline, behavior and rewards.  

Correct, however, wouldn't self-discipline be required in achieving salvation? this is what Paul was pointing out. The rewards are everlasting life. Paul was also making the point that, salvation is like running a race, you have to finish the race first, before you can win the reward of salvation.

Quote
As for the Hebrews verses, some would say those people were actually not saved to begin with...that they knew the truth/gospel, but did not "accept" it by faith.

But let's say they were saved.  Your verse still does not indicate that it is possible to lose salvation imo.  

Please look back starting at Heb 10:11 and read through to v. 31.  If you concentrate on verses 17 and 18 it points out that there is no point/need for further sacrifice if a person is saved/utterly forgiven.  


17 Then he adds:

   “Their sins and lawless acts
   I will remember no more.”

 18 And where these have been forgiven, sacrifice for sin is no longer necessary.


Now, to go to Heb 10:26, it says the same thing.  Even if he person keeps on sinning intentionally, there is no further sacrifice that can save as it has already been done.  But the subsequent verses show that there are consequences for our sin, even if we are saved.

God's forgiveness is not prompted by sentimentality. As u pointed out, He does punish for sins.

Ps 99:8

"LORD our God, you answered them; you were to Israel a forgiving God, though you punished their misdeeds."

Joshua warned Israel that God would not forgive apostasy on their part. Look at:

Jos 24:19, 20

(19)" Joshua said to the people, 'You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. (20) If you forsake the LORD and serve foreign gods, he will turn and bring disaster on you and make an end of you, after he has been good to you.'"
 
God has a required way for seeking and receiving his forgiveness. A person must acknowledge his sin, recognize that it is an offense against God, confess it unqualifiedly, have a deep heartfelt sorrow for the wrong done, and have a determination to turn from such a course or practice. Look at:

Ps 32:5; 51:4; 1Jo 1:8, 9; 2Co 7:8-11

(5) "May they be like chaff before the wind, with the angel of the LORD driving them away; [51:(4) Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge."

(8.) "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."  

(8.) "Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— (9) yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. (10) Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. (11) See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter."

A person  must do what he can to right the wrong or damage done.  Then he must pray to God, asking for forgiveness on the basis of Christ’s ransom sacrifice.

Mt 5:23, 24; Eph 1:7

(23) "Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, (24) leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift."

(7) "In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace."


Again, a person has to be sincerely repentant in order for them to exercise the ransom sacrifice that Jesus provided. If we are "once saved, always saved" then there would be no need in asking for forgiveness anymore, it would automatically be forgiven when you continued to sin.

Hebrews make this clear at Hebrews chapter 10:26-27. If we keep sinning after we know the truth, then God won't forgive that behavior anymore. This means tho, the person had to know the truth first, right? Also, look at what the scriptures say about shrinking back. Before one can shrink back, they had to be in God's favor first.

Hebrews 10:25-27, 36-39

(26) "If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, (27) but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. (36) You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. (37) For, 'In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.' (38) And, 'But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.' (39) But we do not belong to those who shrink back and are destroyed, but to those who have faith and are saved."

See how Hebrews 10:35-39 is indicating one can "shrink back". Back from what? Being in God's favor. No one is saved until they finish the race. Until then, we can't give up or "shrink back", by denounces our faith. Like Paul said, "the one who endures to the end, will be the one saved".

Quote
probound, do you believe that

"we are saved by Grace through faith and not of works ....?" (Eph 2:8,9)

Absolutely, however, there are stipulations that go along with that notion. Take a look at:

Hebrews 3:14

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end."

Matt. 10:22; 24:12, 13; Mark 13:13; James 2:17, 26; Luke 9:23

(22) You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. [24:(12)] Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, (13) but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

(13) "Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."

(17) "In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. (26) As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead."  

(23) "Then he said to them all: 'Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me'".

So, it takes more than just believing in what that Scripture quoted says. There has to be "deeds" to go along with it. Even the demons and devil believe that Christ exist. They even know a person has to except Christ as their savior thru faith too. However, this is not going to get them everlasting life. right?Then he said to them all: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.




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Butterbean
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« Reply #55 on: September 12, 2011, 11:13:38 AM »

probound, may I ask what is the denomination of your church?  If you'd rather PM me that is fine.

Also, may I ask what type of bible version you normally use and if it is a study bible?  For instance NIV Ryrie Study Bible or Zondervan Life App. Study Bible or whatever.
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« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2011, 03:13:49 AM »

probound, may I ask what is the denomination of your church?  If you'd rather PM me that is fine.

Also, may I ask what type of bible version you normally use and if it is a study bible?  For instance NIV Ryrie Study Bible or Zondervan Life App. Study Bible or whatever.

No church. Independent/group study with friends and interested ones. I use whatever bible sticks to the orginial languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek). Go to bible gateway dot com. They have a variety of versions. Also, there are other sites as well that u can use too.
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Butterbean
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« Reply #57 on: October 10, 2011, 07:06:10 AM »

No church. Independent/group study with friends and interested ones. I use whatever bible sticks to the orginial languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek). Go to bible gateway dot com. They have a variety of versions. Also, there are other sites as well that u can use too.

Yes, use biblegateway alot...just used it this morn.
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probound2
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« Reply #58 on: October 11, 2011, 12:08:25 PM »

Yes, use biblegateway alot...just used it this morn.

I'm contemplating learning the original languages, so that I don't have to rely on translations. I get tired of having to research the transliterated text to see if indeed the word or phrase being used, means what it meant in the original language. You have to be careful with all the different translated bibles, as some translators are slanted in their view already, thereby rendering certain scripture to mean what fits their belief.

As of now, I have to rely on books, scholars, etc. to clear those issues up, which is very time consuming. I feel like it hampers me from time that  could have been spent in a better fashion.
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