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Author Topic: Did Rumsfeld intentionally thwart defenses to let the plane hit the Pentagon?  (Read 17615 times)
OzmO
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« Reply #200 on: January 10, 2012, 09:53:41 PM »


In the face of death and destruction like the country had never seen, you are trying to make an argument that the President was unavailable--when Rumsfeld didn't attempt to contact him in the first place.
In The Name of God, please think of what you are saying.
My friend, you do not want to piece this together.  I understand.
I've been able to refine this particular argument thanks to you more than anyone else, and it's been interesting.  I appreciate it.  
You're a good bro, OzmO.  Respect.

And this is why you think he's guilty of thwarting our defenses to allow flight 77 to hit?

You are not making sense Jack, piece it together for me.  ANSWER my questions, SHOW me were were your inccorrect assumptions ARE correct.
Quote
I've been able to refine this particular argument thanks to you more than anyone else, and it's been interesting.

You doing exactly what I accused you of.  You started with the belief that Rumsfeld was guilty of your charge and work backwards searching for anything you could to apply to support it while ignore everything else.  If you truly were interested in finding the truth you wouldn't have needed me.


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OzmO
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« Reply #201 on: January 10, 2012, 09:57:47 PM »

Jack, seriously. Go back and answer those questions and show me where your incorrect assumptions ARE correct. Especially the last 3 pages.  Stop running from it.
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OzmO
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« Reply #202 on: January 10, 2012, 09:59:52 PM »

And Jack, I am serious.  You are doing, what many CT'ers do, you are running from FACTS and replacing them with incorrect assumptions.
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_bruce_
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« Reply #203 on: January 12, 2012, 01:09:36 PM »

Rumsfeld was busy watching CSI and didn't feel like contacting Bush  Cheesy
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Calloway
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« Reply #204 on: April 02, 2012, 06:40:07 PM »


He didn't know hijacked planes were flown into buildings because at 9:03 he hadn't been notified any flights were hijacked.  He can assume, but he wouldn't act on it until there was verification.  

He didn't know where those planes came from because even if the news, (which i don't think it was) was reporting at 9:03  which flight it was and were it originated from,  the military would independently verify it first.  It would have taken a few minutes at the very best for the news to figure out which flight it was.

He knew only that 3000-5000 planes were in the air in the USA at the time.  That's all.


When everyone was watching that second plane hit the building (about 10 minutes after the first plane hit), you cant believe that Rumsfeld didnt know what was happening. Holy shit. He would literally be the only person in the world that watched that and didn't know what was going on.
 
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OzmO
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« Reply #205 on: April 02, 2012, 07:14:59 PM »


When everyone was watching that second plane hit the building (about 10 minutes after the first plane hit), you cant believe that Rumsfeld didnt know what was happening. Holy shit. He would literally be the only person in the world that watched that and didn't know what was going on.
 

So on TV in that instant or the minutes shortly there after he surmises and deduces form all other possible explanations that a plane was hijacked by suicide crazed terrorists and flown directly into a building all by design.


What did he do or not do to thwart our defenses on that day to allow a plane to hit the pentagon?

What should he have done?

You are Rumsfeld, take me through exactly what you would have done.
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Calloway
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« Reply #206 on: April 02, 2012, 07:51:58 PM »

So on TV in that instant or the minutes shortly there after he surmises and deduces form all other possible explanations that a plane was hijacked by suicide crazed terrorists and flown directly into a building all by design.

It was two planes into two buildings, right after one another.  What are all these other possible explanations he was deducing, lol

[quote
What did he do or not do to thwart our defenses on that day to allow a plane to hit the pentagon?

What should he have done?

You are Rumsfeld, take me through exactly what you would have done.
[/quote]

I would throw my plans for the day aside, first of all. The I would put in an earpiece and tell my assistants to put the president on.  Then I would got to the ESC instead of my office, where COMMUINCATION would take place. Fuck! how do expect anything to get done if there isn't communication?

In other words, I would do everything he didn't do!
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OzmO
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« Reply #207 on: April 02, 2012, 07:55:16 PM »

It was two planes into two buildings, right after one another.  What are all these other possible explanations he was deducing, lol

I would throw my plans for the day aside, first of all. The I would put in an earpiece and tell my assistants to put the president on.  Then I would got to the ESC instead of my office, where COMMUINCATION would take place. Fuck! how do expect anything to get done if there isn't communication?

In other words, I would do everything he didn't do!

How would have any of that stopped the plane from hitting the pentagon?

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Calloway
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« Reply #208 on: April 02, 2012, 08:24:27 PM »

If someone had the crazy idea to have a plane circle Washington, it could have prevented it. Sure.  But what does this have to do with the decisions Rummy was making on that day?
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OzmO
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« Reply #209 on: April 02, 2012, 08:33:10 PM »

If someone had the crazy idea to have a plane circle Washington, it could have prevented it. Sure.  But what does this have to do with the decisions Rummy was making on that day?

Where would the plane come from?

At 9:03 they didn't know anothe rplane was hijacked.   They didnt know until almost 25 minutes later and didnt know exactly hwere it was heading.  On top of that they were relying on primiary radar (blips) becuase the transponder had been turned off.  And there were radar holes everywhere  the plane hit the pentagon at 9:37  On the entire eastern seaboard there where only 14 jet on the hot pads.  The closest one had 2 f-16 that were scrambled over there that got there minutes after the impact.

So again I ask you, what would you have Rumsfeld do to stop it?
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Calloway
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« Reply #210 on: April 02, 2012, 09:34:00 PM »

Where would the plane come from?

At 9:03 they didn't know anothe rplane was hijacked.   They didnt know until almost 25 minutes later and didnt know exactly hwere it was heading.  On top of that they were relying on primiary radar (blips) becuase the transponder had been turned off.  And there were radar holes everywhere  the plane hit the pentagon at 9:37  On the entire eastern seaboard there where only 14 jet on the hot pads.  The closest one had 2 f-16 that were scrambled over there that got there minutes after the impact.

lol.. they could have gotten a plane to circle our most sensitive city in time.  The city that the continuity of our government relies on. 


Quote
So again I ask you, what would you have Rumsfeld do to stop it?

I would have him do something that showed he wanted the rampage to end.  Something that had to do with the  MILITARY, not the damn CIA like the guy he was with! Tell me how it was more important to be with a CIA agent than with military commanders during this time.  
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OzmO
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« Reply #211 on: April 03, 2012, 08:27:44 AM »

lol.. they could have gotten a plane to circle our most sensitive city in time.  The city that the continuity of our government relies on. 

That's an uninformed assumption based on zero facts.  Show me the facts that support your assertion here.  (you'll find it wasn't possible in the time allotted)

Quote
I would have him do something that showed he wanted the rampage to end.  Something that had to do with the  MILITARY, not the damn CIA like the guy he was with! Tell me how it was more important to be with a CIA agent than with military commanders during this time.  

Are you saying everyone in the military/government wasn't doing anything to stop the "rampage"?  Also, and what would have had Rumsfeld do that the military and government wasn't already doing?

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« Reply #212 on: April 03, 2012, 05:28:17 PM »

Quote
That's an uninformed assumption based on zero facts.  Show me the facts that support your assertion here.  (you'll find it wasn't possible in the time allotted)

Let's pretend that's true instead of unknown. How would it affect his decisions at that time?
 
Quote
Are you saying everyone in the military/government wasn't doing anything to stop the "rampage"?

Did I say that?

Quote
Also, and what would have had Rumsfeld do that the military and government wasn't already doing

Maybe act as the Defense Secretary, and dont milk the clock in your office with somebody from the cia when you NEED to be with the military right fucking now? This shit is crazy.

I dont know if you are trolling or what.

Maybe you dont understand that Donald Rumsfeld was the person whose job was to ok commands the military???
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OzmO
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« Reply #213 on: April 03, 2012, 05:53:26 PM »

I think perhaps you don't understand Rumsfeld's role in things, how the military was reacting to the events of the day, and what was known and unknown every minute from 9:03 to 9:37.

I am not trolling I am dead serious.  So i will ask again but I will re word my question a bit:

What exactly do you think rumsfeld  should have done?

Ps: 
 

Maybe act as the Defense Secretary, and dont milk the clock in your office with somebody from the cia when you NEED to be with the military right fucking now?

Is not an answer.

To highlight why that's not an answer I will ask a different question again:  are you saying that the military was frozen waiting for Rumfeld's orders and therefor didn't do anything and that's why the pentagon was hit?
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« Reply #214 on: April 03, 2012, 08:34:45 PM »

I think perhaps you don't understand Rumsfeld's role in things, how the military was reacting to the events of the day, and what was known and unknown every minute from 9:03 to 9:37.

I am not trolling I am dead serious.  So i will ask again but I will re word my question a bit:

What exactly do you think rumsfeld  should have done?

I would have been happy with him doing ANYTHING, as long as it started with communication. He was on the top of the chain of command with the president. What part of this cant you understand?

This is what makes me think you are trolling.

Quote
Ps:  
Is not an answer.

To highlight why that's not an answer I will ask a different question again:  are you saying that the military was frozen waiting for Rumfeld's orders and therefor didn't do anything and that's why the pentagon was hit?

Get the "is that why the pentagon was hit" stuff out of your head. No one knows the answer to that, because it would have depended on a number of factors. No one knows the answer to that now, no one knew the answer to it then.

This is about the decisions made, not speculation about something we have no data for.

When Bush talked to Cheney about ordering air cover, Cheney decided that it wouldn't be worth it since it would require Rumsfeld to give an order to shoot down a plane that was hijacked.

WHY THE FUCK would not Cheney get Rumsfeld right there on the spot and take care of the problem??

What could it be??  HMMMMMM...

Could it be he was doing everything in his power to keep the blood flowing?
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OzmO
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« Reply #215 on: April 04, 2012, 10:28:44 AM »

I would have been happy with him doing ANYTHING, as long as it started with communication. He was on the top of the chain of command with the president. What part of this cant you understand?

This is what makes me think you are trolling.

We don't know exactly what he was doing with the CIA agent in his office.  Point is though, which is the point of the thread, he wasn't doing anything to thwart US military from doing its job.  I can speculate about what he was doing, however what do know is this:

-  He was told in the minutes after 9:03 that a second plane had hit the pentagon
-  He was informed that a crisis management team was being set up
-  He instructed his PA officer to wait for him at the ESC while he made a few phone calls
-  He told his PA that he would making some phone calls
-  He was with his CIA briefer at the time.

What you FAIL to understand as do most 9/11 CT'ers is that Rumsfeld is not a on duty battlefield commander.  Like for example, the on duty officers at NEADS (North Eastern Air Defense Sector)  Rumsfeld is more of an administrator/politician and that he's a civilian. From 9:03 onward the military was doing its job.

Show again, show me what Rumsfeld did to thwart the military defense of our country that was already in motion.

Quote
Get the "is that why the pentagon was hit" stuff out of your head. No one knows the answer to that, because it would have depended on a number of factors. No one knows the answer to that now, no one knew the answer to it then.

Yes we do.  i can tell you exactly why a plane was hijacked, slipped through the seems of our defenses and hit the penetagon.  Pretty simple and available to anyone who wants to do the research.

Quote
This is about the decisions made, not speculation about something we have no data for.

When Bush talked to Cheney about ordering air cover, Cheney decided that it wouldn't be worth it since it would require Rumsfeld to give an order to shoot down a plane that was hijacked.

WHY THE FUCK would not Cheney get Rumsfeld right there on the spot and take care of the problem??

What could it be??  HMMMMMM...

Could it be he was doing everything in his power to keep the blood flowing?

Not true.  Legally it was determined way after the fact that Rumsfeld could have ordered a shoot down of a civilian plane.  At the time of 9/11 there were no provisions, protocols or contingency plans for a crisis like this.  So it fell on BUSH as the one to order it.  The problems was at 9:03 to about 9:30 they no targets.

So again, and again, and some more:

What could Rumsfeld had done to prevent the pentagon from getting hit?

On a side note to let me better understanding of the foundation of your beliefs reading 911 please answer the following questions:

Do you believe the pentagon was hit by a (the) plane or a missile?
Do you believe Rumsfeld deliberately thwarted our defenses to allow this to happen or do you believe it was through his incompetence it happened?
Do you believe the WTC's were wired prior to 9/11 to help them fall and that our government was behind the whole thing?

PS:  Again, i am not a trolling, so quit it with the accusation.  I am dead serious and am willing to debate you on this in detail with facts.  However, save the Rhetorical arguments for the less informed.  

cheesy ass questions/comments like:

1.  They could have gotten a plane to circle our most sensitive city in time.  (show me based on facts where they could have done that instead of just claiming it)

2. It was two planes into two buildings, right after one another.  What are all these other possible explanations he was deducing, lol  (I could list a few)

3.  If someone had the crazy idea to have a plane circle Washington, it could have prevented it. Sure.  But what does this have to do with the decisions Rummy was making on that day?  (understand Rumsfeld role in military operations and that the military response was already in motion you will see there was nothing rumsfeld could have done either way to change the outcome of Flight 77 hitting the pentagon)

So, Calloway, i hope you are seeing now that i am not "trolling" ( Roll Eyes).  what i am asking you to do is show, based on facts using available information and the timeline what Rumsfeld did or didn't do to thwart our defenses from 9:03 to 9:37 and or that because of what he didn't or didn't do could have prevented it from hitting the pentagon.  (using facts, not empty rhetoric not based on facts)

Are you up to it Calloway?
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Calloway
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« Reply #216 on: April 04, 2012, 05:56:21 PM »

You just cant get the 'wouldnt prevent the pentagon from being hit' out of your mind for some reason.

I want you to list a couple of those possibilities.
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OzmO
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« Reply #217 on: April 04, 2012, 06:11:53 PM »

You just cant get the 'wouldnt prevent the pentagon from being hit' out of your mind for some reason.

I want you to list a couple of those possibilities.

I am not sure what you are getting at with the "wouldn't prevent the pentagon" thing.  Please explain.

I am saying that regardless of what was done by Rumsfeld, (for many reasons i can explain in detail based on facts) the plane hits anyway.

Other possibilities?

The planes were taken over by remote control
1 was an accident the other was a crazed pilot
Both were accidents due to faulty equipment
They weren't passenger planes but instead cargo, or 1 was 1 wasn't

I am sure I could think of others.  But thats not the point, the point is again, what did Rumsfeld do or not do to thwart our defenses and cuase the pentagon to get hit?

Can you make a case or not?  Because so far it seems you have used nothing but rhetoric void of supporting facts and semantics.  
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OzmO
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« Reply #218 on: April 04, 2012, 06:17:00 PM »

Further more, the issue of whether or not Rumsfeld's actions can or cannot prevent the plane from hitting the pentagon is very important because if it would have any way( which is provable) so you cant pin any wrong doing on him, which you couldn't any way. 

You should forget your rhetoric for a while and spend a few hours researching it on non CT'er sites and you will see what I mean.
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OzmO
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« Reply #219 on: April 04, 2012, 06:19:40 PM »



Do you believe the pentagon was hit by a (the) plane or a missile?
Do you believe Rumsfeld deliberately thwarted our defenses to allow this to happen or do you believe it was through his incompetence it happened?
Do you believe the WTC's were wired prior to 9/11 to help them fall and that our government was behind the whole thing?



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Calloway
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« Reply #220 on: April 04, 2012, 06:51:27 PM »

It matters because it doesnt have anything to do with the decisions that were being made THEN. It is like a person swinging a baseball bat at someones head with the idea of killing them, but the person is able to duck and run away, then afterwords saying "oh, it doesnt matter what mr. baseball bat swinger did, because it wouldnt have hit anyway since the guy was able to duck and run away"

Look man, I dont know if you are just so desperate to hold your ground or if you really dont understand.
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Calloway
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« Reply #221 on: April 04, 2012, 06:52:24 PM »

The fact that they didnt communicate.  That right there says so much.  It's not only that Cheney didnt initiate contact with Rummy, or Rummy with Cheney, or Bush with Rummy, or Rummy with Bush...because actually, ALL of that happened...it happened during the most important time EVER for them to communicate. 
















































What should be the possibility of something like that happening? 



































Now what should be the possibilty of that happening WITHOUT EXPLANATION??
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OzmO
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« Reply #222 on: April 04, 2012, 07:10:43 PM »

dude, no need for the leaving soo much space between sentences dramatics.  I mean really?  

It matters because it doesnt have anything to do with the decisions that were being made THEN. It is like a person swinging a baseball bat at someones head with the idea of killing them, but the person is able to duck and run away, then afterwords saying "oh, it doesnt matter what mr. baseball bat swinger did, because it wouldnt have hit anyway since the guy was able to duck and run away"

Look man, I dont know if you are just so desperate to hold your ground or if you really dont understand.

Rumsfeld wasn't swinging a bat nor did he have the contention of killing anyone.  So your analogy falls flat there.  Can you show any evidence or intention that says other wise?

The fact that they didnt communicate.  That right there says so much.  It's not only that Cheney didnt initiate contact with Rummy, or Rummy with Cheney, or Bush with Rummy, or Rummy with Bush...because actually, ALL of that happened...it happened during the most important time EVER for them to communicate.

What should be the possibility of something like that happening?
Now what should be the possibilty of that happening WITHOUT EXPLANATION??

They did communicate.  At around 10.  Do you know why?  Do you know what each person was doing at each minute from 9:03 to 9:37?  Do you know what military and civilian counterparts were doing at the time?

And had they communicated what then?  How would it have changed anything in that: Would they have had the power to stop it by communicating in the 34 minutes between the 2 impacts?




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OzmO
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« Reply #223 on: April 08, 2012, 07:01:20 PM »

Hi Jack, how's it going?

You are incorrect on Rumfeld knowing or giving the order to go ATC zero on 911

IN fact you are  also incorrect as to when the full order given and who it was given by.

Try Sliney at around 9:15, Garvey at 9:28 and Mineta at 9:45

(no offense, but this isn't the first time)

I hope your argument isn't based on this too much, also you Are doing it again:  starting with a conclusion and then trying to make assumptions support it rather than actual evidence.  
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« Reply #224 on: April 08, 2012, 08:51:12 PM »

Hi Jack, how's it going?

You are incorrect on Rumfeld knowing or giving the order to go ATC zero on 911

IN fact you are  also incorrect as to when the full order given and who it was given by.

Try Sliney at around 9:15, Garvey at 9:28 and Mineta at 9:45

(no offense, but this isn't the first time)

I hope your argument isn't based on this too much, also you Are doing it again:  starting with a conclusion and then trying to make assumptions support it rather than actual evidence. 


I know Rumsfeld didn't give the order for that, OzmO.
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