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Author Topic: Ask A “Schmoe” Anything! (G4P / Gay For Pay)  (Read 22914 times)
Beefjake
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« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2012, 06:04:39 AM »

I'm not into female bodybuilding or female fitness modeling at all, so I can't comment much about it more than that. So if you want to generate a discussion about that, you'll have to get your answers somewhere else. This is about G4P in men's bodybuilding.

No no, it was jut a train of thought. Thanks for answers.
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6 Reps
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« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2012, 08:58:41 PM »

There is no question in my mind that KNOWN bodybuilders who have been known to participate in G4P or porn are jeapordizing their careers in terms of a glass ceiling on how well they place in competition. What is your feeling? An example would be several of the weight classes at USA.
And yes you were right about the number of G4P on stage!! Care to compare notes?  I think this again
stress the need for 1 wealthy supportive person who can keep his mouth shut.

One of the USA contestants, who is considering a rising star, only took second in his class.  Quite awhile back on one of the gay photo sites there were routine photos of him.  However below the photos there was a link to a site of a gay porn video he had made.  The video was obviously made a few years earlier as he was much smaller in it.  I have no idea if the video was a G4P or just G4G.  Anyway, within just a day or two of this posting on the gay photo site, the link was taken down!!!  The regular photos did remain.  Is this perhaps why he only took second?

If so, it is appalling the homophobic hypocrisy in bodybuilding.  I don't know any judges, but I have seen some judges at contests that look like they never exercised a day in their life.  The only conclusion I make is that they are gay.  No straight man, who is not into athletics or fitness, is going to sit around and evaluate other men's bodies.

I truly believe that Kai Greene will never win Mr. Olympia, no matter what he looks like, for this same reason: a glass ceiling.



  
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NYSTATEOFMIND
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« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2012, 09:16:32 PM »

yella

In your travels, has any mr Olympia ( within the last 15 years) participated in VERY g4p actions? i mean very gay
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« Reply #53 on: August 03, 2012, 05:08:50 AM »

One of the USA contestants, who is considering a rising star, only took second in his class.  Quite awhile back on one of the gay photo sites there were routine photos of him.  However below the photos there was a link to a site of a gay porn video he had made.  The video was obviously made a few years earlier as he was much smaller in it.  I have no idea if the video was a G4P or just G4G.  Anyway, within just a day or two of this posting on the gay photo site, the link was taken down!!!  The regular photos did remain.  Is this perhaps why he only took second?

If so, it is appalling the homophobic hypocrisy in bodybuilding.  I don't know any judges, but I have seen some judges at contests that look like they never exercised a day in their life.  The only conclusion I make is that they are gay.  No straight man, who is not into athletics or fitness, is going to sit around and evaluate other men's bodies.

I truly believe that Kai Greene will never win Mr. Olympia, no matter what he looks like, for this same reason: a glass ceiling.



The competitor that you are referring to who took second in his class was beaten by a competitor who also did G4P photos and videos and private posing. That one was awarded his pro card. So, to answer your question, I don't think it hurt #2's placings. Actually, I think he got the placing he deserved, and should do better in future contests.

Links are usually taken down by the copyright owner, not the competitor. Certain adult sites, gay sites and forums like this one may have policies that remove photos, videos or links if they feel they are defamatory or to protect someone, or as a courtesy -- but to think the links, photos and videos aren't available already elsewhere on the net is just naive. This same kind of ass-backwards thinking about file sharing and chasing shadows is what killed the recording industry.

Re: how judges look, yes about half the judges are not in bodybuilding or fitness shape, and have not participated in competitions ever. But have you seen boxing judges, beauty pageant judges, and gymnastics judges? A lot of them look like they do not belong either. And do not forget, some of the judges who also compete in bodybuilding may be gay, as well. So do not judge the sexuality of the judges simply by how they look - you might be fooled.

Kai Greene is and has always marched to a very different drum. Mr. O is desperate to have or keep a "mainstream" spokesman for its federation -- and Kai just is not it. The G4P stuff probably just adds to it for him, but it certainly isn't the only thing that keeps him from the Mr. O.
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YellaDawg
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« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2012, 05:15:10 AM »

yella

In your travels, has any mr Olympia ( within the last 15 years) participated in VERY g4p actions? i mean very gay

You would have to define for me what YOU think is "VERY g4p actions" before I answer that question for you.

However, I do know that some recent Mr. O's have participated and financially benefited from gay benefactors.
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NYSTATEOFMIND
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« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2012, 10:16:58 AM »

You would have to define for me what YOU think is "VERY g4p actions" before I answer that question for you.

However, I do know that some recent Mr. O's have participated and financially benefited from gay benefactors.

Semi gay is- coming to a schmoes room..posing maybe let him feel the junk and his muscle..worship

very gay is intercourse..oral..
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« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2012, 10:45:45 AM »

Semi gay is- coming to a schmoes room..posing maybe let him feel the junk and his muscle..worship

very gay is intercourse..oral..

Those are your odd definitions, not mine, And certainly not the scientific or sociological definitions. But I'll answer the question:

Yes I know of recent Mr. O's (last 15 years) that have done your version of semi gay.

I do not know recent Mr. O's (last 15 years) that have done your version of very gay, but I am aware and know of Mr. O's pre-15 years ago who have.
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« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2012, 02:32:08 PM »

This topic of G4P absolutely, totally fascinates me.

I am not a schmoe. I have never "engaged" a bodybuilder for sex or worship, not that I couldn't afford it (mmm, not $5,000), but I simply couldn't do it for reasons I won't go into here.  On the other end of the spectrum, when I was younger I was offered money for gay sex a number of times but turned them all down (didn't need the money, offerors unattractive, etc.).

What first fascinates me is the "hook-up."  You're not going to find these guys on rentboy.com.  How does one make the connection?  If I went up to some bodybuilder at a contest or an expo and gave him my phone number, I think I'd risk getting punched in the face.  If I didn't get punched, it would at the very least be awfully awkward.   Obviously one way to get hooked-up is by knowing people, or networking through people (like you?) that are connected to bodybuilders available.  But, for someone like me who doesn't know people, that in and of itself would present a big challenge.  I've often wondered if there is like a granddaddy pimp, someone who connects well-heeled schmoes with Tier 2 or Tier 3 (to use BayGBM's ranking) or other top amateurs.  And such a pimp to whom the bodybuilders would go to "sign up."

My second fascination is with the bodybuilders themselves.  I completely do not understand how a straight bodybuilder could engage in gay sex or worship.  As a gay man, there is no way under the sun that I could have sex with a woman, have a woman blow me off, or flex and pose while the woman looks at me and masturbates.  I'd be homeless.  

Maybe it's that male sexuality, straight male/gay male is more fluid (pardon the pun) than we think.  Far more so than gay male/straight women.  This certainly could explain why straight men have gay sex with other men once they get into prison.  Or maybe there is something to BayGBM's belief that the true deep reason men build their muscles is for other men.  I don't agree with that, that is not the reason I build mine, but maybe there is something to it.  

I certainly see the value and simplicity in having one sponsor/patron/benefactor for a bodybuilder.  Quite a number of years ago I stumbled upon a site with a list of gay male sponsors seeking bodybuilders.  I thought it a breathtaking list:  there were quite a number of MD's on it and some obviously extraordinarily wealthy men.

Maybe someday I'll engage a bodybuilder for G4P and only interview him for the agreed time.  Just because I would find him so darn fascinating.  If he's straight, how could he do G4P?

Lastly, I can't help but note that, aside from BayGBM's long running threads, this thread has 7 times as many views as any other on this list.

 
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YellaDawg
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« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2012, 08:16:17 PM »

I am not a schmoe. I have never "engaged" a bodybuilder for sex or worship, not that I couldn't afford it (mmm, not $5,000), but I simply couldn't do it for reasons I won't go into here.  On the other end of the spectrum, when I was younger I was offered money for gay sex a number of times but turned them all down (didn't need the money, offerors unattractive, etc.).

When I was younger and either in school or fresh out of school, I got offered several times as well. Most of my male and female friends (gay and straight) that I hung out with or partied with during that school era all had similar experiences or offers, and handled it differently: free trips. rent or car notes paid for an extended period, gifts, cash. Most often, it's not an outward negotiation or transaction but the expected tit-for-tat that is part of the exchange. Actually, now that I am in my 40s, looking back, I wish I would have done far more of that in my early 20s and was in school. Those were some fun times. One thing it reinforced to me is that I needed to make as much money as possible and as early as possible in my chosen field so that I could be secure enough in my later years to enjoy my life and do what I wanted to do. To me, there was/is nothing sadder than seeing a broke older guy trying to spend his coins and energy on something otherwise unattainable.

Quote
What first fascinates me is the "hook-up."  You're not going to find these guys on rentboy.com.  How does one make the connection?  If I went up to some bodybuilder at a contest or an expo and gave him my phone number, I think I'd risk getting punched in the face.  If I didn't get punched, it would at the very least be awfully awkward.   Obviously one way to get hooked-up is by knowing people, or networking through people (like you?) that are connected to bodybuilders available.  But, for someone like me who doesn't know people, that in and of itself would present a big challenge.  I've often wondered if there is like a granddaddy pimp, someone who connects well-heeled schmoes with Tier 2 or Tier 3 (to use BayGBM's ranking) or other top amateurs.  And such a pimp to whom the bodybuilders would go to "sign up."

I do not lurk around contests trying to pick up bodybuilders. I have never had the need to do that, and frankly, I'd caution any bodybuilder to be wary of any schmoe who approaches them in that way. The only time I have given my card or my number to a bodybuilder at a show or an expo is when they have asked for it first. Usually, when an athlete learns about my profession or my industry, which is fairly prominent and known to be highly lucrative, it leads to another conversation and they may ask to keep in touch with me. Yes, knowing the right people os probably the best way to get connected (like in anything). There have been in the past some fairly well-known "pimps" or "agents" for g4p. My experience has been otherwise however. I know that most well-heeled schmoes and sponsors can just as easily have their own personal assistants hook them up with potential new bodybuilder or physique model meat than to use a "pimp" or "agents" directly. Like I said before, these are better off kepts as direct discreet relationships or arrangements, so for both parties, the fewer people involved, the better. The more people in the chain, the greater likelihood of exposure.

I get approached sometimes by wannabe sponsors and schmoes who have observed (perhaps a little too closely) or figured out that I may be "living their dream", asking me to assist them in their search or quest for comeptitive bodybuilders. My response is always, "what's in it for me?" I certainly do not need their money or a cut from the proceeds. So, unless the wannabe sponsor can connect me to a bodybuilder I would be interested in sponsoring myself, why would I make a connection? The only times I have personally done that is when I have an athlete who is not well-suited for me, yet I'd still like to do that bodybuilder a favor of sorts, and provide him with a potential private sponsor.

Quote
My second fascination is with the bodybuilders themselves.  I completely do not understand how a straight bodybuilder could engage in gay sex or worship.  As a gay man, there is no way under the sun that I could have sex with a woman, have a woman blow me off, or flex and pose while the woman looks at me and masturbates.  I'd be homeless.

Maybe it's that male sexuality, straight male/gay male is more fluid (pardon the pun) than we think.  Far more so than gay male/straight women.  This certainly could explain why straight men have gay sex with other men once they get into prison.  Or maybe there is something to BayGBM's belief that the true deep reason men build their muscles is for other men.  I don't agree with that, that is not the reason I build mine, but maybe there is something to it. 

Sexuality for most people -- men and women -- lies on a spectrum. Some people are 100% hetero, some are 100% gay, but many, perhaps even most, lie somewhere in between. Some people can go through the mechanical act of sex with anyone with no problem. Others get turned on by sex acts with certain people of either sex. Situational or circumstantial sex is very common worldwide. Your mileage, of course, may vary. I have had what is considered what is identified as "gay sex" with plenty of men worldwide who consider themselves straight. If you do not trip on the labels, the naming or the shaming, then you'd be surprised what kinds of situations you can avail yourself to. For example, most of the men I have fooled around with in South America have had wedding rings on.

Quote
I certainly see the value and simplicity in having one sponsor/patron/benefactor for a bodybuilder.  Quite a number of years ago I stumbled upon a site with a list of gay male sponsors seeking bodybuilders.  I thought it a breathtaking list:  there were quite a number of MD's on it and some obviously extraordinarily wealthy men.

I recall that site. My best advice I can give to any bodybuilder who hopes to meet a rich benefactor this way is to "trust, but verify". The cons work both way in g4p, especially since the internet has made it easy for any poor horny schlub living in their mother's basement to create an alter ego.

Quote
Maybe someday I'll engage a bodybuilder for G4P and only interview him for the agreed time.  Just because I would find him so darn fascinating.  If he's straight, how could he do G4P?

Gay men have been marrying and fucking straight women and fathering children with them for centuries and centuries all over the world. Why would you think it is so darn hard for a man who considered himself straight to engage in gay activity? Is it because you have been culturally conditioned to believe that the latter activity is shameful while the former is not?

Quote
Lastly, I can't help but note that, aside from BayGBM's long running threads, this thread has 7 times as many views as any other on this list.

This is why I wanted my Q&A to be in its own thread, as opposed to attaching it to one of the existing Bay threads. I wanted mine to sink or swim on its own merits, or lack thereof, and not take away from the other threads.
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usmcdevildoc
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« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2012, 09:41:31 PM »

How common is this?
Just SPONSORED a bber for the USAs
and now I have 3 inquiries for sponsorship one
of whom will be up for the Olympia next year.
Coincidence or word of mouth? Single private sponsor
only way to go-- no trail...
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YellaDawg
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« Reply #60 on: August 08, 2012, 07:36:38 AM »

How common is this?
Just SPONSORED a bber for the USAs
and now I have 3 inquiries for sponsorship one
of whom will be up for the Olympia next year.
Coincidence or word of mouth? Single private sponsor
only way to go-- no trail...

It's not coincidence. It's word of mouth, and is the common, preferred route for private sponsorship.
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dgo
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« Reply #61 on: August 08, 2012, 06:44:31 PM »

Yella,

Thanks so much for this thread.  Very interesting!  I had a similar experience as you and 6 Reps in that I was approached a few times when I was younger.  I'm gay and was out so it wasn't a big deal, just wasn't something I wanted to do.

But now I'm in my mid 40s and in a comfortable financial position where I could be a "schmoe" and am really fascinated by it.  But how do you even begin?  Start small and local?  Go to shows?  Go on line?  Start with an initial meeting, have a couple encounters, then sponsor?   What's a reasonable rate for, say, a local heavyweight competitor (as in not competing at a national level yet).  My gym isn't really a "meathead" gym so there are very few choices.

Thanks
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« Reply #62 on: August 09, 2012, 06:41:16 PM »

Yella,

Thanks so much for this thread.  Very interesting!  I had a similar experience as you and 6 Reps in that I was approached a few times when I was younger.  I'm gay and was out so it wasn't a big deal, just wasn't something I wanted to do.

But now I'm in my mid 40s and in a comfortable financial position where I could be a "schmoe" and am really fascinated by it.  But how do you even begin?  Start small and local?  Go to shows?  Go on line?  Start with an initial meeting, have a couple encounters, then sponsor?   What's a reasonable rate for, say, a local heavyweight competitor (as in not competing at a national level yet).  My gym isn't really a "meathead" gym so there are very few choices.

Thanks

Start locally or online. Try to have an initial "muscle worship" meeting before you commit to a long-term sponsorship. A session's going rate for a local HW competitor can be anywhere from $150 to $350+, depending on your local market.
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usmcdevildoc
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« Reply #63 on: August 12, 2012, 09:16:02 PM »

Need advice-  what is the best way to land a new prospective bodybuilder? Was referred a young up and coming former teen sensation by a female judge who knew that I had sponsored one of the USA contestants. She knew that I had stayed with this bber throughout his entire prep and invested considerable cash (he only had to eat, sleep, and lift weights for the four months prior to the USA), medical advise, peptides and info. The new bber knows the bber I  supported for the USA. I was just gonna tell him what I expect in return for the support was what I got from him-- or do you think it best I just let nature take it's course?
These guys may be married, have gfs, but most seem eager to kick back for service when your stuffing their pockets with ca$h. Do you feel that is a good assumption?
How do you hand distance sponsorship?- which I try to avoid except
if I have had the bodybuilder before.
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« Reply #64 on: August 13, 2012, 05:24:41 AM »

check out the site..... www.muscleservice.com

then go to their thread called :

Muscle Locker Room

use this message board to post your muscle personals. Let us know what you're looking for and what you need, or fill us in on what you've got to give.

it is a clearing house for bbers looking for sponsors and sponsors looking to give help.
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« Reply #65 on: August 13, 2012, 10:06:16 AM »

Need advice-  what is the best way to land a new prospective bodybuilder? Was referred a young up and coming former teen sensation by a female judge who knew that I had sponsored one of the USA contestants. She knew that I had stayed with this bber throughout his entire prep and invested considerable cash (he only had to eat, sleep, and lift weights for the four months prior to the USA), medical advise, peptides and info. The new bber knows the bber I  supported for the USA. I was just gonna tell him what I expect in return for the support was what I got from him-- or do you think it best I just let nature take it's course?
These guys may be married, have gfs, but most seem eager to kick back for service when your stuffing their pockets with ca$h. Do you feel that is a good assumption?
How do you hand distance sponsorship?- which I try to avoid except
if I have had the bodybuilder before.

First of all, I hope your teens are 18+, or else you're asking for a world of trouble. If they are 18 or over, then the same advice I gave earlier applies: ease into it but never be deceptive. Tell him what your expectations are, but the conversation should be two-way, so that he is asking you just as many questions and putting feelers out along with you.

The guys are usually married or have girlfriends.

I handle distance by arranging trips (either to me or to him) on a regular basis. In addition, some updates are sometimes provided by webcam. Distance doesn't really concern me, as I can travel a lot for business.
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« Reply #66 on: August 13, 2012, 10:16:00 AM »

check out the site..... www.muscleservice.com

then go to their thread called :

Muscle Locker Room

use this message board to post your muscle personals. Let us know what you're looking for and what you need, or fill us in on what you've got to give.

it is a clearing house for bbers looking for sponsors and sponsors looking to give help.

I would proceed with extreme caution with websites like muscleservice, if you are seeking out a discreet competitive bodybuilder. Many of the posters there have loose lips. Also most of the posters there aren't really into sponsorship but into hiring escorts or porn stars (which are a lot less private with their affairs), and the overwhelming majority of the posters there don't really have the income it takes to truly support a bodybuilder going through competition. Maybe some of the lurkers at that site might be more discreet and have valid information about true competitive bodybuilders to sponsor, but posting information at the forums seems to be risky.
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« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2012, 06:29:30 PM »

THE WOMEN OF THE G4P OR GAY PORN BODYBUILDERS

YD I believe it was you who commented that most of these bodybuilders have girlfriends or are married.
Question:  Do you think they know about there partner's extracurricular activities?  I mean it can not be all good when you got a visual of "your man" getting blown by a Schmoe or taking it up the butt, so to speak.
   Don't you think a lot of these bodybuilders either have conflicted sexual identities or else they are so despirate to make some extra cash that they will do anything to make ends meet!  Most of these guys have personality disorders to begin with-- narcisistic, delusional, borderline personality types. There is one IFFB pro who was willing to get blown for the right $$$$ no questions asked. I later found out that he was married and had kids!! He really got into it too. A second one, whose girlfriend I met (and she was a IFFB pro herself -supposedly), seemed to have no clue-- and this guy was doing gay porn and G4P. Sounds like a serious comedy!!! Grin
What do you think about this YD??  Huh
Would be nice to get a woman's perspective on the topic-- I mean how would she feel knowing that her man was kicking back for service and some for all WeHo??
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« Reply #68 on: August 20, 2012, 01:49:13 PM »

I just counted 4 pros who competed in last weekend's 2012 Europa who have done G4P.

With 37 contestants in both weight classes, that's over 10% of the pros in a major contest with a G4P history.

And those are just the ones I know about!
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« Reply #69 on: August 20, 2012, 01:54:36 PM »

THE WOMEN OF THE G4P OR GAY PORN BODYBUILDERS

YD I believe it was you who commented that most of these bodybuilders have girlfriends or are married.
Question:  Do you think they know about there partner's extracurricular activities?  I mean it can not be all good when you got a visual of "your man" getting blown by a Schmoe or taking it up the butt, so to speak.
   Don't you think a lot of these bodybuilders either have conflicted sexual identities or else they are so despirate to make some extra cash that they will do anything to make ends meet!  Most of these guys have personality disorders to begin with-- narcisistic, delusional, borderline personality types. There is one IFFB pro who was willing to get blown for the right $$$$ no questions asked. I later found out that he was married and had kids!! He really got into it too. A second one, whose girlfriend I met (and she was a IFFB pro herself -supposedly), seemed to have no clue-- and this guy was doing gay porn and G4P. Sounds like a serious comedy!!! Grin
What do you think about this YD??  Huh
Would be nice to get a woman's perspective on the topic-- I mean how would she feel knowing that her man was kicking back for service and some for all WeHo??

This is not just a bodybuilder thing. All over the world, women delude themselves or close their eyes to the obvious for the sake of a relationship. And some women know and do not care. Others even encourage it.

I once messed with a competitor with his girlfriend in the other room. She told him to let her know when we were done. Another guy's wife waited out in the car for him to get done.
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« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2012, 12:12:25 PM »

You think the G4P is just on the stage or in the audience? Think again.

The promoter of a major NPC show in the NYC area has been an active G4P escort who has been advertising his services on and off in various gay publications for years.

How can you propose taking G4P out of bodybuilding when you can't even tell where it starts and where it ends?
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« Reply #71 on: August 23, 2012, 03:39:24 AM »

Sponsorship commitment and sponsoree put out:

Do you feel that most serious competitive bodybuilders are lazy with respect to seeking out sponsorship?
If they find a good sponsor it sems likely they will come back again and again to that same sponsor. Footing a bill in sponsorship for a top rate show can run into some serious bank ($20-30 K). If that is the case, I expect to be draining the bodybuilder on at least a weekly or biweekly basis. The drugs alone for a USA prep can cost that or even more alone!! Had one guy tell me he is do horned up from gear that kicking back for service just "seems natural and an easy way to make money."
You mentioned not posting on a couple of boards attempting to solicit sponsorees. I agree. When you want quality goods, you should be prepared to pay for quality goods, although the prices vary, why do I find myself locked into some serious long term interactions?
Also don't you think it funny when the bodybuilder introduces you
to his wife or gf as his sponsor, and you
look the woman in the face knowing you know her
bf better than her. How can you put a price on having a sexual
interaction with Mr. America?
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« Reply #72 on: August 23, 2012, 05:58:17 AM »

I don't think competitive BBers are lazy with respect to seeking out sponsors, as much as true sponsorship is rare and hard to find, so they do not know how to find it. As I said before, there are far more bodybuilders out there than there are legitimate sponsors.

Of course, the sponsor will get repeat business, because where else is a bodybuilder going to find someone to help foot those bills?

Regarding the wife / gf thing, I don't have a lot of experience with that. Your scenarios sound a little fantastical and erotic fiction-like, but maybe that's just me, or it just could be your writing style. Whatever it is, you should tone it down if you expect to be believed by the audience.


Sponsorship commitment and sponsoree put out:

Do you feel that most serious competitive bodybuilders are lazy with respect to seeking out sponsorship?
If they find a good sponsor it sems likely they will come back again and again to that same sponsor. Footing a bill in sponsorship for a top rate show can run into some serious bank ($20-30 K). If that is the case, I expect to be draining the bodybuilder on at least a weekly or biweekly basis. The drugs alone for a USA prep can cost that or even more alone!! Had one guy tell me he is do horned up from gear that kicking back for service just "seems natural and an easy way to make money."
You mentioned not posting on a couple of boards attempting to solicit sponsorees. I agree. When you want quality goods, you should be prepared to pay for quality goods, although the prices vary, why do I find myself locked into some serious long term interactions?
Also don't you think it funny when the bodybuilder introduces you
to his wife or gf as his sponsor, and you
look the woman in the face knowing you know her
bf better than her. How can you put a price on having a sexual
interaction with Mr. America?
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DerrickRigg
Getbig II
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Gender: Male
Posts: 50



« Reply #73 on: December 13, 2012, 07:58:16 PM »

Damn! Sign me up for some schomoe sponsorships.

I'm in a growth cycle now through next fall 2013 and need my gear and supplements to grow to 290 offseason. If I can make $3-4K a month to helps with my growth needs, I'd do it.
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B
anabolichalo
Getbig V
*****
Posts: 17465


VP Ronnie Coleman fan club EMEA


« Reply #74 on: December 14, 2012, 02:10:19 AM »

too bad none of you schmoes seem to know anything about female bodybuilding


for years i have desired to schmoe up lenda murray or even dayana cadeau


chocolate muscle womans
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