Bullshitters.... someone that makes up shit so often you shake your head

[Big Chiro Flex]

I honestly don't remember any statistics when it comes the chiro's and placeboeffect masking etc but I do know that it's a much bigger problem among homeopaths since they claim to cure all kinds of shit. I guess it also depends on what type of chiropractor we're talking about. Some of them have absolutely no shame whatsoever and others actually do care about what works and what doesn't.

I thought you said "as the most rigorous studies show" I was hoping you'd send me some good studies

[Big Chiro Flex]

I honestly don't remember any statistics when it comes the chiro's and placeboeffect masking etc but I do know that it's a much bigger problem among homeopaths since they claim to cure all kinds of shit. I guess it also depends on what type of chiropractor we're talking about. Some of them have absolutely no shame whatsoever and others actually do care about what works and what doesn't.

I agree for any doctor, for any profession at that!

[lovemonkey]

Show me these placebo studies?

The issue is we do try to find the best way, it just conflicts with your view point.

Also, a ton of X rays? I've never heard of a DC taking more than 1 set of films. Is your point the danger of radiation? Know how much radiation your iPhone puts out? Know how much radiation you are exposed to on a flight from Seattle to Chicago?

I'm afraid you are dismissing what we actually do. If you are ever in the Midwest, hit me up. Spend a few hours with me in a docs office and see for yourself. I've never had anyone leave the office I work at with a negative view of it, EVER. And I've had some real assholes like yourself come in  JK bro

Again, depends on what type of person the chiropractor is. I'm glad to hear you're not one of the "bad" kind.

I thought you said "as the most rigorous studies show" I was hoping you'd send me some good studies

I'm looking through some books right now, I'll see if I can find them.

I agree for any doctor, for any profession at that!

Nah true to only a certain extent. Overall I think it's safe to say that the track record for modern evidence based medicine is much more impressive than that of chiropractics even though both of them have good and rotten apples. It simply due to a totally different approach to science.

[Big Chiro Flex]

Nah true to only a certain extent. Overall I think it's safe to say that the track record for modern evidence based medicine is much more impressive than that of chiropractics even though both of them have good and rotten apples. It simply due to a totally different approach to science.

200k accidental deaths a year due to malpractice? That's bad. As is the statistic about prescription drug interaction being the top 5 causes of death in the US. That's impressively BAD news man

[The Abdominal Snoman]

I work with a bullshitter a.k.a. "one upper". Whatever you may accomplish this dude has done it better.
He looks like a black George Costanza from Seinfeld. Chubby with man boobs, belly, short 5'8" or so and reaks of cheap cologne.

In response to me buying a Porsche: "I have a Lexus with a corvette motor that would smoke yours...it's in my garage."

In response after coming back from a vacation: "I was in my high rise condo in Miami during a hurricane and saw a car being spun around by the hurricane in the middle of the sea flying by my condo."

In response to a sales rep that walked into our department: "I married a fashion model that was wayyy hotter."
His now ex wife sued him for child support and alimony for the last 20 years ...and has never worked a day in her life.

In response to someone taking a few days off after an allergic reaction to a bee sting: " every time I walk out of my house I have to put on a bee suit because I have honey bees by my garage." I asked him even during the winter? "He said, yes during the winter too." I replied: Bees hibernate during the winter. ...he changed the subject quickly.

He claims to jog 5 miles daily...but I believe if he actually ran that much he would die of a heart attack.

Claimed to have "held his own" against a National Champion wrestler in college. ...he has 0 experience wrestling.

These are just some of the best ones I can think of right now

lolz classic

[lovemonkey]

200k accidental deaths a year due to malpractice? That's bad. As is the statistic about prescription drug interaction being the top 5 causes of death in the US. That's impressively BAD news man

Again, that is a problem with the SYSTEM, not the underlying science. Are you saying chiropractors would do a better job if they were primary care providers for america? I kinda see your point, but at the same time not. Funny fact, from one of the books I'm looking through right now, I'm reading that according to a study done in 1995 roughly 90% of all chiropractors considered themselves as primary care providers. I hope that number has changed since then.

I'm still digging, btw. I also just discovered that I've contracted pink eye. Looks like I'll be heading to the doctor for some antibiotics tomorrow, jesus goddamn christ.

[Big Chiro Flex]

Again, that is a problem with the SYSTEM, not the underlying science. Are you saying chiropractors would do a better job if they were primary care providers for america? I kinda see your point, but at the same time not. Funny fact, from one of the books I'm looking through right now, I'm reading that according to a study done in 1995 roughly 90% of all chiropractors considered themselves as primary care providers. I hope that number has changed since then.

I'm still digging, btw. I also just discovered that I've contracted pink eye. Looks like I'll be heading to the doctor for some antibiotics tomorrow, jesus goddamn christ.

Lol in America we are primary care providers bro. What country do you live in?

[Big Chiro Flex]

Again, that is a problem with the SYSTEM, not the underlying science. Are you saying chiropractors would do a better job if they were primary care providers for america? I kinda see your point, but at the same time not. Funny fact, from one of the books I'm looking through right now, I'm reading that according to a study done in 1995 roughly 90% of all chiropractors considered themselves as primary care providers. I hope that number has changed since then.

I'm still digging, btw. I also just discovered that I've contracted pink eye. Looks like I'll be heading to the doctor for some antibiotics tomorrow, jesus goddamn christ.

I can't understand this statement whatsoever. The system killed these people? Not the science? Come again?

[Dr Dutch]

Pfewww.....Dr Dutch is gonna sit this one out...

[bigmc]

i went to a chiropractor for 4 weeks took six months of physio do undo the damge he did

[lovemonkey]

Lol in America we are primary care providers bro. What country do you live in?

Scandinavia.

So in what way are you primary care providers? As a legal definition or do you think that people should go to their chiropractors for all type of ailments?

[lovemonkey]

I can't understand this statement whatsoever. The system killed these people? Not the science? Come again?

You did say malpractice, right?

By system I mean the doctors themselves, the organisation around them, equipment, nurses etc etc. These are all always bound to screw up to a certain degree. But that doesn't invalidate the idea of evidence-based medicine.

I guess the science could be "wrong" too, but only in the sense that not enough studies have been done or the results of them have been misinterpreted.

[lovemonkey]

Pfewww.....Dr Dutch is gonna sit this one out...

I can imagine that for a doctor to read these posts back and forth it's gotta be something like a theoretical physicist reading a post about the mass of photons by tbombz. In other words, painful. 

I have no idea which side you're on, but I'm sure both me, chiro and krankenstein are spouting all kinds of bullshit.

[Andy Griffin]

I can imagine that for a doctor to read these posts back and forth it's gotta be something like a theoretical physicist reading a post about the mass of photons by tbombz. In other words, painful. 

I have no idea which side you're on, but I'm sure both me, chiro and krankenstein are spouting all kinds of bullshit.

Reminds me of the fistfight I once witnessed at a bar over whether Harvard or Stanford was a better school.  Both combatants were high school dropouts. 

[Hulkotron]

Scandinavia.

So in what way are you primary care providers? As a legal definition or do you think that people should go to their chiropractors for all type of ailments?

I don't know what it means in other countries but a primary care professional in the US is someone you go to for general health concerns and they figure out if you need specialized help and if so where to refer you.  Many chiros in the US consider themselves PC providers but I'm not sure why, they have much more in common with specialists, like a dentist or a physician who specializes in sports medicine, or a podiatrist (foot doctor).

Although there's no legal definition of "primary care" that I'm aware of, i.e. there's no list that says "these people can call themselves PC, these people can't". 

[lovemonkey]

i went to a chiropractor for 4 weeks took six months of physio do undo the damge he did

Although it wouldn't be anything more than an anecdote I'm still be curios to hear your story if you don't mind.

[lovemonkey]

I don't know what it means in other countries but a primary care professional in the US is someone you go to for general health concerns and they figure out if you need specialized help and if so where to refer you.  Many chiros in the US consider themselves PC providers but I'm not sure why, they have much more in common with specialists, like a dentist or a physician who specializes in sports medicine, or a podiatrist (foot doctor).

Although there's no legal definition of "primary care" that I'm aware of, i.e. there's no list that says "these people can call themselves PC, these people can't". 

OK that's pretty weird. I'm sure there are good chiro's out there that will immediately admit when they're out of their depth and send their patients to the proper doctor, but unfortunately there are a lot of straight up quacks out there that abuse the trust that is given to them by the patients. It's a shame that they're given the title of a "doctor".

[Krankenstein]

i went to a chiropractor for 4 weeks took six months of physio do undo the damge he did

If a chiropractor doesn't do anything, how could it take six months to undo the damage they did?

Even still, what kind of damage was done that you had to go through six months of physical therapy to have it undone?

[lovemonkey]

If a chiropractor doesn't do anything, how could it take six months to undo the damage they did?

Even still, what kind of damage was done that you had to go through six months of physical therapy to have it undone?

I don't think anyone is arguing that chiro's don't do anything, the question is rather if it's effective as a treatment or not.

There are recorded cases of neck "adjustments" going terribly wrong, though. Fortunately they don't seem to be very common.

[Krankenstein]

Scandinavia.

So in what way are you primary care providers? As a legal definition or do you think that people should go to their chiropractors for all type of ailments?

PCP = a physician who usually is the first health professional to examine a patient and who recommends secondary care physicians, medical or surgical specialists with expertise in the patient's specific health problem, if further treatment is needed.

Reminds me of the fistfight I once witnessed at a bar over whether Harvard or Stanford was a better school.  Both combatants were high school dropouts.  

Funny thing is that I graduated high school, undergrad, and now have post grad degree.

OK that's pretty weird. I'm sure there are good chiro's out there that will immediately admit when they're out of their depth and send their patients to the proper doctor, but unfortunately there are a lot of straight up quacks out there that abuse the trust that is given to them by the patients. It's a shame that they're given the title of a "doctor".

A shame?  When I hear that a medical 'doctor' has sent a patient for test, after test, after test, and prescribed pill, after pill, after pill....only to have the patient NOT get better.  I think its a shame they are called a 'doctor'

[bigmc]

If a chiropractor doesn't do anything, how could it take six months to undo the damage they did?

Even still, what kind of damage was done that you had to go through six months of physical therapy to have it undone?

neck adjustments fucked me up

the rehab was really gentle physio

[Krankenstein]

neck adjustments fucked me up

the rehab was really gentle physio

I mean no disrespect when I ask this...but how did it fuck you up? 

[Princess L]

I had a friend who was married to a DC (R.I.P).  He had a very successful practice, I think in part because he didn't have any competition.  I wouldn't let him touch me with a ten foot pole!  They were in another state anyway.  I saw a DC for years who had VERY DIFFERENT methods and I thought he was helping me.  I thought because he was personable and we had a good rapport and I felt better momentarily that he was doing the right thing.  It wasn't until I started seeing a massage therapist and doing corrective exercises that I realized he was just milking my insurance.

Years later, I met a DC again, with very different methods (all of them out of Palmer).  I've seen him a few times over the years, but 99.9% of the time, he refers me to a massage therapist and recommends specific exercises.  His approach is to help the patient help themselves as much as possible.

My point is that there are good and bad in any profession.  Just because someone is educated in a particular field doesn't mean they're any good.  Hey ~ someone has to be at the bottom of the class!  Professionals need to realize their limitations and check their egos at the door.  Just because they have a shingle hanging on their wall doesn't mean squat!

Should this thread be split into 2 topics?

[Princess L]

You're right, it IS bullshit.  When someone with medicare comes into my office that needs physical therapy...I have to charge them for that because medicare does not reimburse for that for chiros.  PT's..yes.  Will the patient get the same care if done by me?  Yep.  Also, one thing that gives my profession the bad name is the patients who are unwilling to take responsibility for themselves.  You have a guy come in who is 320lbs with TWO blown discs in his back...and after three treatments tells me that the pain down his leg is not better and that the treatment isnt working.  Well, so sorry that my adjustment won't make you lose 100+ lbs so that your spine won't have to bear the brunt of so much excess bodyweight.  So sorry that you have had this pain for nearly 3yrs and even though it would come and go, you didn't ever think you needed treatment until that radiating pain is now down to your heel and its keeping you up at night.  So sorry that you don't think you should have to pay your co-pays because the care didn't magically get you better like you wanted.

If it weren't for the patients and the staff, I would love what I do!!  

Why do you even take a patient on like that when you know full well you won't be able to help them?

[Krankenstein]

Why do you even take a patient on like that when you know full well you won't be able to help them?

Why?  Well, its because I have this warped belief that perhaps something I say, or do will help this guy out.  Even if I just give him diet advice, or show him some exercises that will do something to alleviate the pain, or even if I say "its time for you to see an orthopoedic surgeon" that the guy will understand that its 'shit or get off the pot' time.

I don't pull any punches in my 'report' to the patient after their initial exam.  If someone is overweight, i tell them that their weight NEEDS to be addressed.  I have discharged a patient because they did not follow my recommendations on things.  That is so UNCOMMON in my profession.  That right there is a sad statement.  MD's get rid of patients left and right in those cases. 

As far as your one guy milking the fuck out of the insurance.  Yep, that happens.  Those guys are the ones that have fucked things up for people like me.  But, something people DON'T think about is this...how much hospitals rape the insurance companies for.  Ever see how much an aspirin costs for a hospital stay?  Ask for another cookie with a meal there, guess what?  They charge for another meal!  I have seen it personally. 

How about this:

I took a standard two view lumbar series on a patient.  Total bill to the insurance : $95.  We were done with treatment a couple months later.  Almost one year later he was in a car accident.  The ER took the SAME study (most will say bullshit, but a 72100 code is the same for me as the ER...its a 2-view limited study of lumbar spine) and billed out...get this : $600.  He showed me his ER bill.  Who is milking the insurance company there?