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Author Topic: Neil DeGrasse Tyson Says What He Thinks on Race...  (Read 19725 times)
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« on: April 27, 2014, 12:30:40 AM »

Neil DeGrasse Tyson Says What He Thinks About Race Now That He Has Made It And Almost Nobody Noticed

To set the scene, the (poorly posed) question is referring to comments made by former Treasury Secretary and Harvard University President Lawrence Summers, who suggested that genetic differences could explain why there are fewer girls in science. Yup, he really was Treasury secretary and President of Harvard.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson's answer is, um, out of this world. There, I said it. Let me have this one. This has got to be one of the most accurate, diplomatic, inoffensive articulations on the legacy of the entrenched systemic racism so prevalent around us.

The entire clip is well worth watching, however, the portion to which I refer starts at 1:01:14

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEeBPSvcNZQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEeBPSvcNZQ</a>

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« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2014, 06:43:55 AM »

I like Neil and enjoy his shows.  Smart, funny down to earth guy
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« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2014, 07:02:47 AM »

He's not a biologist.    There are real and verifiable structural brain differences between men and women.  Having said that, my wife is  math wiz.  Any one with aptitude for any particular endeavor should be encouraged to pursue that endeavor.  Genetic differences are real and some people will never be scientists no matter how hard you try to appeal to them, just like not all people have musical or athletic ability.
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« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2014, 11:36:55 PM »

There are real and verifiable structural brain differences between men and women.

Would that be nature (born with it) or nurture (built over time due to different stimuli)?
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« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2014, 12:16:51 AM »

Maybe because I'm a lot younger (than Neil) and education changed, maybe because I'm Dutch and our educating system is different, but I've never experienced different expectations from boys and girls (or blacks, whites and anything else). We were encouraged to do the best we could in whatever we did, and we all could be anything we wanted to be. Black scientist, fine. Female engineer, fine. Male nurse, fine.

I'm an egineer and in my class 47% of the students were female. We also had about 40% female teachers. Off course Industrial Product Design is seen as a much softer technical study, but it still leans heavily on maths, physics and mechanical enigeering. It is hardly as soft as some think... If you design a maxi cosi, it should not only look pretty and cute, it should also be safe and be able to withstand abuse, and still be cheap and easy to produce and assemble.
Also added one year of a related study: Human Engineering, were your goal is to adjust products and services to how people think and work, not the other way around (as most companies do). Here 52% of the students were female.
The other technical studies in our university had less female students...
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« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2014, 03:29:03 AM »

Maybe because I'm a lot younger (than Neil) and education changed, maybe because I'm Dutch and our educating system is different, but I've never experienced different expectations from boys and girls (or blacks, whites and anything else). We were encouraged to do the best we could in whatever we did, and we all could be anything we wanted to be. Black scientist, fine. Female engineer, fine. Male nurse, fine.

I'm an egineer and in my class 47% of the students were female. We also had about 40% female teachers. Off course Industrial Product Design is seen as a much softer technical study, but it still leans heavily on maths, physics and mechanical enigeering. It is hardly as soft as some think... If you design a maxi cosi, it should not only look pretty and cute, it should also be safe and be able to withstand abuse, and still be cheap and easy to produce and assemble.
Also added one year of a related study: Human Engineering, were your goal is to adjust products and services to how people think and work, not the other way around (as most companies do). Here 52% of the students were female.
The other technical studies in our university had less female students...

Your experiences being raised & educated in The Netherlands is a far cry from that of those in North America.
In the USA, Black kids wanting to pursue academia encounter countless obstacles thrown in their paths.
The gender stereotyping & conditioning starts at birth. As a little girl, my best friend wanted to be an astronaut. She was of course discouraged because she was a girl, meanwhile the boys in our class with similar goals saw their aspirations encouraged & supported. Times have changed yes, however, the racist & sexist mentality is still here. One only has to read through these boards to know these attitudes are still alive. In the late 80's right here in Canada, we had a sexist pig Marc Lepine massacre all the female engineering students at école Polytechnique, simply for having the audacity to pursue a career in engineering. As he gunned down these women, he ranted & raved about how women who study engineering were just stealing jobs from men, and for this reason, they had to die.... And this in Canada. Sexism & Racism is far worse in the USA.
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« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2014, 04:52:21 AM »

Would that be nature (born with it) or nurture (built over time due to different stimuli)?

Possibly both. 
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« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2014, 05:00:31 AM »

Your experiences being raised & educated in The Netherlands is a far cry from that of those in North America.
In the USA, Black kids wanting to pursue academia encounter countless obstacles thrown in their paths.
The gender stereotyping & conditioning starts at birth. As a little girl, my best friend wanted to be an astronaut. She was of course discouraged because she was a girl, meanwhile the boys in our class with similar goals saw their aspirations encouraged & supported. Times have changed yes, however, the racist & sexist mentality is still here. One only has to read through these boards to know these attitudes are still alive. In the late 80's right here in Canada, we had a sexist pig Marc Lepine massacre all the female engineering students at école Polytechnique, simply for having the audacity to pursue a career in engineering. As he gunned down these women, he ranted & raved about how women who study engineering were just stealing jobs from men, and for this reason, they had to die.... And this in Canada. Sexism & Racism is far worse in the USA.


Having gone to a primarily black school I can tell you from personal experience many if not the majority of those obstacles are created by themselves.  Obstacles dont seem to be a factor for asian americans.  Asian Americans make up a disproportionate number of students enrolled in science programs at university.  Asians americans are also disproportionately represented in the professional fields related to science and technology. 
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« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2014, 04:29:02 PM »


Having gone to a primarily black school I can tell you from personal experience many if not the majority of those obstacles are created by themselves.  Obstacles dont seem to be a factor for asian americans.  Asian Americans make up a disproportionate number of students enrolled in science programs at university.  Asians americans are also disproportionately represented in the professional fields related to science and technology. 

Asian Americans for the most part are not subjected to the same set of entrenched obstacles.
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« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 04:35:30 PM »

Asian Americans for the most part are not subjected to the same set of entrenched obstacles.


They have more, language and cultural barriers. 
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« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 05:15:15 PM »


They have more, language and cultural barriers. 

They do, however have their culture do they not?
The "cultural barriers" they face, can, are often are a blessing in disguise.

But this thread isn't about "who has it worse?" It's about Neil DeGrasse Tyson's brilliant articulation of his experiences with entrenched bias within a system that has failed to aspire the aspirations of women and by extension African-Americans into the sciences. He speaks of his experience, which many can clearly relate to.

As a kid in middle school, I wanted to take "wood-working shop" class, but was instead routed into "Home-Ec" where they would teach us to cook & sew. All the girls in our class took home-ec, and during that same period, all the boys took "shop". Our education was steered along gender lines. I didn't want to take Home-Ec. I already knew how to cook & sew. I wanted to learn how to build things with wood, hammers, nails etc... That summer, I had helped my Dad, my Uncle, and their friends renovate one of the floors in our split-level basement, building a rec room, office, and additional full bathroom. I hammered, nailed, plastered, tiled, layed carpet... the whole works. It was great transforming raw space into functional living space. I wanted more, but because I was a girl, I was directed towards Home-Ec where I was bored stiff while the other girls were taught the various parts of a sewing machine. I already knew my way around a sewing machine, and had been sewing since the age of 7.

Girls in my high school always had a battle to get into auto-mechanics class in the 11th grade. They were driving, getting their licences etc., and wanted to learn about what was under the hoods of their own cars and how to fix them if necessary. It was always a battle to do so. I won't even get into the hellish experience it was for girls who wanted to pursue hockey.

DeGrasse-Tyson speaks about an entrenched bias in "the system" that can hinder progress & thwart potential. That is all, ...and he does so quite brilliantly IMO.
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« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2014, 02:01:57 AM »

But this thread isn't about "who has it worse?" It's about Neil DeGrasse Tyson's brilliant articulation of his experiences with entrenched bias within a system that has failed to aspire the aspirations of women and by extension African-Americans into the sciences. He speaks of his experience, which many can clearly relate to.

DeGrasse-Tyson speaks about an entrenched bias in "the system" that can hinder progress & thwart potential. That is all, ...and he does so quite brilliantly IMO.

And he is right!
Still, for foreigners it is difficult to imagine how bad the sexist and racist issues go in the USA, even now, and to what extend. We still get that old message that the USA is the land of opportunity, and if you fail it is only to blame on you. Apparently, only a few get opportunities...

Not saying Dutch education is better, because it is clearly not. Here we focus too much on the weakest students. They get not one, not two, not three, but over twenty chances to get a diploma. They get all the help they want (or not want) just to succeed. The schools also lower standards for those diplomas constantly, so most are worthless now.
In this process of helping the weakest, they forget all about students who could thrive, with just a little attention and motivation. There's just not enough time and money left to make those kids excel. If you're not a complete retard, you have to do it all on your own.

Just an example to show how low standards for diplomas are nowadays: students applying for a university study to become a teacher for primary schools, are so bad in Dutch, simple calculations, history, geography, biology and so on, that they would not even pass the exams on primary schools! And some students, despite their very poor test results, still DID GET THEIR TEATCHER'S DIPLOMA!

Quote
As a kid in middle school, I wanted to take "wood-working shop" class, but was instead routed into "Home-Ec" where they would teach us to cook & sew. All the girls in our class took home-ec, and during that same period, all the boys took "shop". Our education was steered along gender lines. I didn't want to take Home-Ec. I already knew how to cook & sew. I wanted to learn how to build things with wood, hammers, nails etc... That summer, I had helped my Dad, my Uncle, and their friends renovate one of the floors in our split-level basement, building a rec room, office, and additional full bathroom. I hammered, nailed, plastered, tiled, layed carpet... the whole works. It was great transforming raw space into functional living space. I wanted more, but because I was a girl, I was directed towards Home-Ec where I was bored stiff while the other girls were taught the various parts of a sewing machine. I already knew my way around a sewing machine, and had been sewing since the age of 7.

Girls in my high school always had a battle to get into auto-mechanics class in the 11th grade. They were driving, getting their licences etc., and wanted to learn about what was under the hoods of their own cars and how to fix them if necessary. It was always a battle to do so. I won't even get into the hellish experience it was for girls who wanted to pursue hockey.

I'm very sorry to hear that! If you've set your heart on it, you should be able to follow those classes.
In my time we had no home-ec or wood-working, but schools have something similar now. The first years everybody has to follow every class. So girls, too, have to learn about repairing electrical cords and boys also about cooking and sewing.
I honestly thought it was the same in every country, also the USA.
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« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2014, 03:28:17 PM »

Neil DeGrasse Tyson Says What He Thinks About Race Now That He Has Made It And Almost Nobody Noticed

To set the scene, the (poorly posed) question is referring to comments made by former Treasury Secretary and Harvard University President Lawrence Summers, who suggested that genetic differences could explain why there are fewer girls in science. Yup, he really was Treasury secretary and President of Harvard.

Neil DeGrasse Tyson's answer is, um, out of this world. There, I said it. Let me have this one. This has got to be one of the most accurate, diplomatic, inoffensive articulations on the legacy of the entrenched systemic racism so prevalent around us.

The entire clip is well worth watching, however, the portion to which I refer starts at 1:01:14



<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEeBPSvcNZQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEeBPSvcNZQ</a>



"before we talk about genetic differences, you have to come up with a system that has equal opportunity"  <<--- This /convo!
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« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2014, 08:12:54 PM »


Still, for foreigners it is difficult to imagine how bad the sexist and racist issues go in the USA, even now, and to what extend. We still get that old message that the USA is the land of opportunity, and if you fail it is only to blame on you.

Just an example to show how low standards for diplomas are nowadays: students applying for a university study to become a teacher for primary schools, are so bad in Dutch, simple calculations, history, geography, biology and so on, that they would not even pass the exams on primary schools! And some students, despite their very poor test results, still DID GET THEIR TEATCHER'S DIPLOMA!



So wrong that these nitwits can become teatchers, June, totally agree. Off course I have no idea to what extend the problem exists.
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« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2014, 10:04:41 PM »

Milo, no-brainer.

All his gimmicks are chicks, what does this say?

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTs_TZFjbJ8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTs_TZFjbJ8</a>

I think you have some serious issues, if some internet persona like Junior gets under your skin so easily.

And yes, typo, English is not my first language. Boo hoo!

So wrong that these nitwits can become teatchers, June, totally agree. Off course I have no idea to what extend the problem exists.

Well... those teachers wouldn't know the difference between of course and off courseWink

It so bad that around 30% of those graduated students would not even pass a primary school exam. And they're the ones prepping young kids to pass their primary school exams...  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2014, 07:33:46 AM »

So wrong that these nitwits can become teatchers, June, totally agree. Off course I have no idea to what extend the problem exists.

Please agree to the terms & conditions so you can be added to the "approved" list and continue posting. 
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« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2014, 07:36:51 AM »

Commonly confused English words
    Accept / Except
    Affect / Effect
    A Lot / Alot
    Allusion / Illusion
    All Ready / Already
    Altogether / All Together
    Apart / A Part
    Ascent / Assent
    Breath / Breathe
    Capital / Capitol
    Cite / Sight / Site
    Complement / Compliment
    Conscience / Conscious
    Council / Counsel
    Elicit / Illicit
    Eminent / Immanent / Imminent
    Its / It's
    Lead / Led
    Lie / Lay
    Lose / Loose
    Novel
    Passed / Past
    Precede / Procede
    Principal / Principle
    Quote / Quotation
    Reluctant / Reticent
    Stationary / Stationery
    Supposed To / Suppose
    Than / Then
    Their / There / They're
    Through / Threw / Thorough / Though / Thru
    To / Too / Two
    Who / Which / That
    Who / Whom
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